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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of Brooklyn and Queens, if you've been listening since the beginning of the show, you know that he was supposed to lead us off back around 10 o'clock but he got called into a leadership meeting on the infrastructure vote scheduled for today. The tensions between more progressive and more centrist Democrats over whether they will approve the bill, if it's not linked to the larger human infrastructure bill for childcare, eldercare, paid family leave, and climate protections. Congressman Jeffries, thanks as always for coming on to this, and thanks for coming on right away after the meeting. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congressman Jeffries: Good morning, Brian, great to be on with you.

Brian: Deal or no deal?

Congressman Jeffries: Well, we remain on a positive trajectory and path toward getting both the bipartisan infrastructure agreement done as well as the Build Back Better Act on because the priorities of the American people need to be met and both bills will play a role in doing that in decisive fashion.

When you talk about the infrastructure agreement, it makes the largest federal investment in public transit ever, the largest federal investment in passenger rail since the creation of Amtrak, the single largest dedicated bridge investment since the construction of the interstate highway system back during the Dwight Eisenhower years, makes the largest investment in clean drinking water and wastewater infrastructure in American history and perhaps equally significant in the context of this pandemic that we're in will ensure that every single American has access to high-speed internet and can afford it.

It's going to create millions of good-paying jobs in areas of significant need. At the same time, we recognize that that's not sufficient to meet the promise that we've made to the American people that we're going to build back better which is why we need the Build Back Better Act which will do things like extend, enhance and improve child tax credit, one of the largest tax cuts in American history for working families and middle-class families, and it has lifted a significant number of children who are currently in poverty out of poverty.

We want to lower the cost of childcare, secure universal pre-K, create community college access that is free for every single American, drive down the high price of life-saving prescription drugs, expand the quality and nature of homecare, stand with our essential workers in that regard and of course, in terms of the climate crisis, invest in the sustainable, resilient, and green economy.

That's a lot to do but every single one of those items is incredibly important. We can't accomplish it alone in the infrastructure agreement which is why I think we remain on a path to be able to do both.

Brian: On a path to be able to do both. Sounds like you haven't come to yes yet which means you may not know if you're going to have members of the Progressive Caucus Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Congressman Ritchie Torres was here yesterday saying he was leaning toward voting no on infrastructure if it didn't get formally linked to the human infrastructure. It doesn't sound like you have a deal yet.

Congressman Jeffries: Well, what's clear to me is that at minimum, and I support this position, we need an iron-clad agreement and commitment to enact the priorities that I just outlined which are contained in the Build Back Better Act, around child tax credit, and life-saving prescription drugs in terms of lowering the cost there, expansion of Medicaid and Medicare, two years of tuition-free community college, dealing with the climate crisis. We need an iron-clad agreement.

Now that is an agreement that is necessitated by continued communication with the Senate, two senators in particular. Those conversations are ongoing, they've intensified, I know the White House is involved, the House and the Senate leadership are in discussions with the senator from Arizona and a senator from West Virginia.

It's my understanding that those conversations are proceeding in a positive way but we have to do both. Failure's not an option here because the needs of the American people are great in the context of a once in a century pandemic that's both a public health crisis and an economic crisis.

Brian: Listeners, we can get a couple of phone calls in for Congressman Jeffries at 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280, if you want to call in. Following up on what you just said, congressman, with respect to the senator from West Virginia, Democrat Joe Manchin, The Washington Post reports that as of last night, Manchin "doubled down" with a fiery statement in which he starkly opposed trillions of dollars in spending, and he cast doubt on the possibility that any such deal even could come together in time for the House's scheduled Thursday vote, today vote, on infrastructure. Are you more optimistic than that reporting makes it sound about reaching a deal today?

Congressman Jeffries: I'm certainly more optimistic in part because I've got tremendous confidence in President Joe Biden, and tremendous confidence in Speaker Pelosi in terms of being able to land these planes. Now we got multiple planes in the air, when we came in to Washington this week, there were four, and we need to land them at some point in the next few days, next week or two, keeping the government open.

Looks like we'll be able to get that done today, dealing with the debt ceiling issue, because the Republicans are being incredibly irresponsible, and threatening the full faith and credit of the United States of America. Even though the bills that we need to pay 93% of the debt ceiling increase relates to bills that were acquired during the Trump presidency. Part of that was the GOP tax scam. 83% of the benefits went to the wealthiest 1% saddling our children and grandchildren with $2 trillion worth of debt.

They're being irresponsible but we've got to land that plane and we will. Looks like we've got until mid-October to do so according to Treasury Secretary Yellen. Then we have the infrastructure agreement that we've discussed as well as the Build Back Better Act.

The reality is, the investments that we are contemplating making will be transformative. That does require some time and that requires some effort. We are not a cult like the other side, we are a coalition. We happen to be a governing coalition right now of progressives, of moderates, of [unintelligible 00:07:19], of blue dogs, some conservative Democrats like Joe Manchin, all part of the coalition.

There are times that we may agree to disagree on some things, but we always are going to be agreeable with each other in trying to find the highest common denominator. Now, this is a little bit different than the two other periods of American history where substantial investments were made. You had the New Deal Era and you had the Great Society Era.

In terms of impact, the Build Back Better era is going to be just as transformational if not more, because we're going to be broadly inclusive unlike what took place during the New Deal when many African Americans, particularly in the South were intentionally left out.

Brian, as you know, as a student of history, when FDR passed Social Security, I believe it was in 1935, there were 318 Democrats in the house and 69 Democrats in the Senate. When LBJ oversaw the Great Society programs, centerpiece of those probably being Medicare and Medicaid in '65, there were 293 Democrats in the House. He was a little short of FDR, 68 Democrats in the Senate. Right now, we've got 220 in the House, and 50 in the Senate. It is going to take some time and effort to land the planes but we will.

Brian: Is it your understanding that Congressman Manchin and Congressman Sinema, I mean, Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema have different concerns? It seems to me from what I've read, but I'm not there, that Senator Manchin is concerned about the price tag of the human infrastructure or Build Back Better bill. Senator Sinema doesn't want to raise taxes on the wealthy to help pay for that bill. Is that your understanding? She's been less explicit about what her objections are.

Congressman Jeffries: I think that's correct. Senator Sinema has been less explicit in terms of her objections although it's my understanding she is back in communication with the White House right now. That's a very helpful thing. Senator Manchin has been very public in terms of his concerns with $3.5 trillion price tag.

It's important for everyone to understand that unlike the Cares Act that was 2.2 trillion, but that was spent immediately in large measure because we were dealing with a once-in-a-century pandemic, we needed a once-in-a-century response that was comprehensive and compassionate. Then the American Rescue Plan, similarly, 1.9 trillion that was spent immediately in the context of trying to crush the virus and provide relief to everyday Americans who were struggling.

What we're talking about in terms of the $3.5 trillion Build Back Better Act is a 10-year budget plan. You're talking about 350 billion or so spent over per year, over a 10-year period of time. That is not fiscally irresponsible. That's fiscally responsible in the context of the needs of the American people.

I'd like to get some more clarity in terms of Manchin's perspective on this, particularly when the entirety of that $3.5 trillion as we dealt with in the House is paid for, yes by making sure that the wealthy, the well-off, and the well-connected pay their fair share. By the way, the overwhelming majority of the American people, Democrats, Independents, and a majority of Republicans support paying for these investments in the American people by making sure that the wealthy pay their fair share.

Brian: This is WNYC FM HDNAM New York WNJTFM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We own New York and New Jersey public radio. Few more minutes with Brooklyn and Queen's Congressmen Hakeem Jeffries WHO Is also the House Democratic Caucus leader, one of the top deputies of Speaker Nancy Pelosi, and just out of a leadership meeting as they try to come to yes on these two infrastructure bills, physical and human.

Michelle in Campbell Hall, New York, it's Rocklin County, right? Michelle, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Michelle: Yes. Hello. Hi Brian. Hi Congressman. Thanks for taking my call. I have a quick question on if these bills are independent of one another, then why can't the infrastructure bill pass with absolutely no issues and then get to the human infrastructure one after that? Because I drive and I've literally been on roads in New Jersey, for example, that you look out your car window and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm on a rusting bridge. I don't know if this thing is going to collapse at any moment."

Our infrastructure is in such a state of disrepair. Why can't that one just be passed 100%, everybody's agreeing and then move on to the human one, or is it a fear that if the infrastructure gets passed, the other one will get forgotten about?

Congressman Jeffries: That's a great question, Michelle. Thank you so much for raising it. I do think that we have to make investments in fixing our crumbling bridges, roads, tunnels, our airports, our mass transit system, our water, wastewater sewage systems as well as in ensuring that every single American has access to high-speed internet in inner-city America, rural America, small-town America, [unintelligible 00:13:19], suburban and exurban America as well.

That is an urgent priority. It must be met in the bipartisan infrastructure agreement makes substantial progress in that regard. But we also recognize that there are these other priorities. I think because of some of the dynamics that we're dealing with in the Senate, which can be a quirky peculiar institution, I happen to personally believe that it's reasonable for many of my colleagues, progressive and moderates, Democrats in safe districts and in frontline tough districts who share concerns and anxieties about the Senate's willingness to do both.

That's why I think the position that has been articulated by the speaker of we need a framework. We need an ironclad agreement and commitment that the Senate is prepared to do what's necessary both in terms of infrastructure and in terms of making the types of investments and lowering costs for everyday Americans, cutting taxes for working-class families and middle-class families, and creating the types of jobs in the caring economy as well as dealing with the climate crisis that are part of the Build Back Better Act.

Brian: If you haven't gotten that commitment yet from Senators Manchin and Sinema, and you want that commitment before you go forward with the physical infrastructure bill, why not just wait? This whole conversation is premised on the reporting that today is the deadline to pass the physical infrastructure bill. What makes it the deadline?

Congressman Jeffries: Well, that's a great question, Brian. One of the issues is that there are federal programs related to infrastructure that expire at midnight today. Part of the issue relative to the bipartisan infrastructure agreement, particularly, the investment in the interstate highway system and our roads, our tunnels, our bridges, which are crumbling and which actually present a safety hazard to the American people, as study after study has indicated, unless we do the work that's necessary to fix our crumbling infrastructure, some of those programs actually expire today.

That is part of the premise. It's not a fake deadline, it's a hard deadline that has to be dealt with. Now it's 11 o'clock, we've got 13 hours before the clock strikes midnight. That's an eternity in Washington, DC. I'm optimistic, I'm hopeful. I think we're on a clear path to be able to do both. We have to do both. It's the president's agenda. It's what he promised the American people we would do.

He said we're going to build back better. We're not going back to pre-pandemic normal because the problem is prior to the pandemic, half the American people reported that they couldn't afford a sudden unexpected $400 expense. This is the wealthiest country in the history of the world. That's unacceptable.

The American dream for far too many folks has been detonated. We've got to build back better, not as a theme, not just as a narrative, not as a slogan, but as a reality. That's why I think the commitment, Brian, is authentic here in the house that we have to do both. I think at the end of the day because we always land these planes under the speaker's leadership, we always find the highest common denominator that we're going to be able to get both of these bills done.

Brian: One more call, Allan in Red Bank. You're on WNYC with Congressman Jeffries. Hi Allan, we've got 30 seconds for you.

Allan: Hey Brian, how are you doing? I've never called your show before but I'm literally driving and pulling my hair out listening to Congressman Jefferies. Listen, I have three kids, climate change is the most important thing to me, but you have to pass something. You have a bill that has Republican and Democratic support. The rest of our country is looking at this and saying, "How could you not pass this?" Congressman Jeffries with the respect to drinking water. There's a lot of great stuff in the still, just get something done.

Fight the Build Back Better Agenda another day. What happens in 2022 when the Republicans take over the House? What are you going to do with the Better Back Agenda at that point?

Congressman Jeffries: [crosstalk] Yes. Thank you, Allan for that question and observation, and as I've indicated, we are going to get the infrastructure agreement done and we're going to get the Build Back Better Act done, and we're going to do both. That's what we have to do.

I'm prepared to vote for the infrastructure agreement today when it comes to the floor. I believe it will have the 218 votes that is necessary. But we have to remain on a parallel path to get both of these important agenda items accomplished and we will.

Brian: We will see if by the end of the day, there's a deal on maybe a smaller Build Back Better or human infrastructure bill or whatever it takes to get to yes, by the end of the day, we will see if that happens.

Last question though, on that other plane, you're trying to land this being September 30th. It's the last day of the federal fiscal year. The new fiscal year starts tomorrow. As you and others have been talking about, the Republicans might not approve a budget that's passed by primarily a Democratic majority are being proposed by the Democratic majority. There may be a partial government shutdown as of tomorrow.

Tell us the implications and answer a question that a caller, [unintelligible 00:19:26] earlier in the hour. That was if the government shuts down if parts of the government have to shut down, why shouldn't that stop Congress, the members, yourself, and all the others from getting paid during that time as an incentive to avoid that?

Congressman Jeffries: Well, I've always found that tying one thing to the other didn't necessarily make any sense. All it does at the end of the day is ensure that you won't have working-class people encouraged to come serve in the legislature here and nationally. We've seen that happen in other parts of the country when that's done, and then you just get a legislature filled with certain types of folks.

I think the more important substantive objective here is we're not going to let the government shut down. It's my understanding that Leader Schumer has announced that they've reached an agreement with his Republican colleagues and Mitch McConnell to ensure that we keep the government open, because the consequence is both for the economy and in terms of the impact on everyday Americans because of a decline in services that would likely occur, let alone those who would be furloughed. We've seen this before when Trump shut down the government for 35 days, longest in history. We're not going to allow that to happen.

Now in the House, every single Democrat voted to keep the government open, every single Republican voted to close it. Because we have the majority, we were able to move the legislation forward. The Senate is a different dynamic because they only have 50 Democrats. You need 60 in order to keep the government open because of the Arcane Filibuster rule which needs to be dealt with. Maybe we can discuss that another time, Brian. I think that they've reached an agreement between Schumer and McConnell, so I'm confident that we will not experience a government shutdown tomorrow.

Brian: More breaking news from Congressman Hakeem Jeffries on this apparent Schumer-McConnell deal to avoid a government shutdown. Thanks again for coming right on to the show after the leadership meeting on the infrastructure bills. Always good to have you, Congressman Hakeem Jeffries.

Congressman Jeffries: Thanks so much, Brian.

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