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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. What is the moral thing to do? What is the moral thing to do when more than 10,000 migrants from Haiti reached the US-Mexico border as their country is in a post-earthquake, post-hurricane, post-presidential assassination crisis of food, housing, COVID, and an armed gang reign of terror in many areas? Is it to deport them back en masse? Certainly not. According to whom? President Biden's own Special Envoy for Haiti, Daniel Foote. Maybe you've heard this by now.

Right after the show yesterday, he made a big statement by resigning with a searing public resignation letter that included these words, "I will not be associated with the United States' inhumane counterproductive decision to deport thousands of Haitian refugees and illegal immigrants to Haiti, a country where American officials are confined to secure compounds because of the dangers posed by armed gangs in control of daily life." Again, that was a quote from Special Envoy for Haiti, Daniel Foote, his resignation letter to Secretary of State, Antony Blinken.

We should note that the Biden Administration is also being criticized from the right for letting too many of the Haitian migrants in. The screaming headline on the cover of the New York Post yesterday was, Border lie: Biden Said He'd Deport Haitians but He's Secretly Letting Many in. What's the right thing to do? What would the US do if the migrants were white? Would the conversation be any different? Would you be asking yourself the same questions in the same ways if they were from somewhere like Norway? Let's talk about what's happening and what's the right thing to do.

With me now are Anu Joshi, vice president for policy at the New York Immigration Coalition, an umbrella policy and advocacy organization that represents over 200 immigrant and refugee rights groups throughout New York, and Tracy Reines, regional director in the resettlement, asylum & integration unit at the International Rescue Committee, which advocates for and helps to resettle refugees and those seeking political asylum around the world.

Some of you may remember Tracy was last here last month to discuss resettling Afghan refugees as the US left that country. We'll touch on the fact that the Afghanistan and Haiti refugee crises are happening at the same time. We know some of you will ask how many refugees from how many places can the US take in at once. Tracy and Anu, thank you for coming on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Anu: Happy to be here. Thanks so much.

Tracy: Happy to be here so much, Brian.

Brian: Let's start by getting your best takes on what's actually happening with the status of many migrants who are Haitian who wound up under or around that bridge in Del Rio, Texas. Many of our listeners have at least seen those images. Tracy, the New York Post headline accusing Biden of secretly admitting many Haitians while stating he was deporting them was based on an Associated Press story called Many Migrants Staying in the US Even as Deportation Flights Rise.

In the story, the AP reports, "Many Haitian migrants in Del Rio are being released in the United States according to two US officials, undercutting the Biden Administration's public statements that the thousands in the camp faced immediate expulsion to Haiti. "Haitians have been freed on a very, very large scale" in recent days," one official said. The official was not authorized to discuss the matter and thus spoke on condition of anonymity put the figure in the thousands." That's from the AP, do you have any reason to doubt that AP story? What's your own assessment of who and how many are being allowed to stay and who's being deported?

Tracy: Thank you, Brian. The number of people that the Biden Administration is racing to send back is over 12,000 people back to Haiti. The numbers vary a bit, but the Administration's clearly looking to deport and send back over 12,000 vulnerable people to a situation that is obviously devastating in terms of the political situation, the vulnerability to earthquakes, and tropical storms obviously happening in the Caribbean.

The Administration is certainly racing against the implementation of Title 42, which provides temporary protection for people staying in the United States who have a legal right to seek asylum in the US. Thousands of people are being deported. The Administration is racing against the implementation of Title 42 which would allow people to stay under protected status.

Brian: Your take on the numbers just to get that part as straight as we can, you think around 12,000 being deported, around 3,000 being allowed in?

Tracy: Definitely around 12,000 being deported, which is a number which I can feel comfortable with. I would leave it with the Administration to talk about anything more specifically, but certainly in terms of the trend of the Administration and their position on this is having people not allowed to stay in the US, which is again over 10,000, close to 12,000 people.

Brian: Anu, the AP story says, "Criteria for deciding who is flown to Haiti and who is released in the US are a mystery, but two officials said deporting single adults was a priority. If previous handling of asylum seekers was any guide, the Administration is more likely to admit those deemed vulnerable such as pregnant women and families with young children or people with medical issues, and unaccompanied minors are always admitted." Again, that from the AP story. Does that sound right to you?

Anu: Yes and no. What we do know is that in the six flights that left the United States on Monday and Tuesday of this week, reports indicate that over 50% of the planes' passengers were children and families. We should really question the reporting that's coming from the Administration, but I really also want to just highlight something that Tracy said.

Since President Biden took office, his Administration has really extended, embraced, and escalated the Trump policy of misusing this Title 42 of the US code, which for your listeners, basically means that America can turn our back on our moral and legal obligation to welcome these refugees with dignity and to allow them to avail themselves of their legal right to claim asylum in this country. We heard a lot from President Biden on the campaign trail about restoring morality to our immigration system, and this is really very far away from that campaign promise.

Brian: When you talk about Title 42 and deporting people under that, are you talking about the provision that relates to the pandemic and that the US can only take in a certain number of people under these conditions where it's not just the secretary of state, but also the Centers for Disease Control who sets these criteria?

Anu: That's right. At the beginning of the pandemic in March of 2020, President Trump and his CDC issued this very controversial, not really based in public health ruling, implementing these Title 42 expulsions along the southern border. We frankly expected President Biden to repeal this really blatantly immoral, horrible policy as soon as he came into office. Really, this is nothing to do with public health anymore. I think it continues to be a smokescreen to deny people their legal right to claim asylum.

These are families that have fled terrible violence, natural disasters, poverty, and they're being met with a closed door, which really goes against who we are supposed to be as a country, but also our legal obligations. I find it pretty appalling that the DHS secretary, Alejandro Mayorkas just recently said that, "If you come to the United States seeking asylum, you will be returned. Your journey will not succeed," is what he said. He really has no right to say that. We have laws that govern how we treat people, and all we're asking is that they be followed.

Brian: Tracy, to follow up on that, if you want to comment on the pandemic context of this, one of the complaints from the right is that the US won't allow anybody else to even fly into the country with papers unless they're vaccinated, but here we are with thousands of people coming across the border undocumented, and the sympathy being extended by many people to allow them in and not even asking about their vaccination status. Is that hypocritical? Is that a contradiction? How would you address that?

Tracy: Well, I think Americans believe that the US is a place for refuge and for people fleeing violence and persecution. Those contexts do need to come into play when we're considering prioritization of people in different circumstances. It is not a complicated concept to provide vaccines when people arrive, to provide testing when people arrive. These are things that can be put in place very reasonably.

The idea that people will be coming without any of these in place is something that can be remedied before further travel into the US. I think that's not a reason enough to prevent people from fleeing such conditions in such a recent situation of violence in Haiti. Again, as my colleague mentioned, availing themselves to the law and international law that they have a right to do. I think it's a bit of a smokescreen. I think that these are things that are easily remedied within the resources we have in terms, again, of vaccines and testing to ensure that people come in in an orderly and reasonable fashion.

Brian: Are they imposing a vaccine mandate as they admit people? The AP says many who are being admitted don't have to report to an immigration judge for 60 days. What happens in the meantime? On the humanitarian side, Tracy, is there temporary resettlement help, or are people with nothing just being released from the camps, but then what do they do? On the other side, are they being required to get vaccinated before they enter the communities?

Tracy: I can tell you in a similar circumstance that the Afghan relocation situation that we're also heavily involved in, they're definitely being provided vaccines, testing, and all of the vaccines that are necessary to safely be part of the public health and part of our communities. This is not a farfetched concept to provide. I'm quite sure it's possible to do and it's being considered when people are coming into the US.

Brian: As far as temporary resettlement help?

Tracy: Same. The resettlement agencies are prepared and preparing and need resources to provide these services. As I think we all know, the Trump administration really undermined, gutted, almost decimated the US resettlement program, in terms of capacity, resources structure, to provide services for people that we have done for generations. Looking to those resources for resettlement agencies to continue to provide public health-related, social-related services is essential for both our Afghan people relocating from Afghanistan, as well as Haiti. We are here to do that, ready to do that and like anything, need the resources to continue to do that in a robust and safe, and productive way.

Brian: I'll ask you about the latest as far as you know about the Afghan refugees a little later in the segment. Anu, I'll get to you in just a second about resettling in the New York area since you're with the New York Immigration Coalition for Haitians, as well as Afghans. Listeners, if you are a Haitian or a Haitian-American listening right now, I'd like to give you first priority on the phones at 646-435-7280.

Although, this is one of those segments where even before I gave out the number just now, [chuckles] almost all our lines are full. Haitians, Haitian-Americans, do you know any of the migrants who arrived in Texas? 646-435-7280, whether or not you have personal connections. Do you have thoughts or suggestions about resettlement in the New York area, or wherever you are?

646-435-7280 or anything on the policy level? Haitians, Haitian Americans, 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280, or tweet @BrianLehrer, and anyone else may call or tweet as well. 646-435-7280 or tweet @BrianLehrer with Tracy Reines from the International Rescue Committee and Anu Joshi from the New York Immigration Coalition. Anu, there is of course a robust Haitian community, sizable Haitian community in our area. Is there any resettlement effort that your group is involved with, with respect to the people who are starting in Texas?

Anu: Yes. One thing I just want to note, Brian is that refugees like these Haitians that have come to our southern border seeking our help, don't have access to all of the formal services that refugees that go through the United Nations receive. It's really up to community-based organizations to provide those services. I just want to give one example that's on the ground right now in southern Texas, the Haitian Bridge Alliance which has been providing incredible support and services to those migrants that are really struggling and have made this incredibly courageous journey to keep their families safe.

There are many organizations here in New York that work to support recently arrived migrants, whether they're from Afghanistan, from Haiti, from Central America. We do have such a robust Haitian community here. Those support services are being set up, but I will say, because unfortunately, the administration is deporting quickly so many of these families that have come to the southern border, we have not seen a huge influx of Haitian migrants to New York in the last month.

Brian: Let's take a phone call. Here is Steve in Bergen County. You're on WNYC. Hi, Steve.

Steve: Hi, how are you? It's my first time calling and I appreciate the call. I'm actually a former immigration lawyer. I certainly feel like I did a lot of good work while I was there, but I certainly over time have had a lot of misgivings about what's gone on as far as immigration policy is concerned. It's a completely broken system. Nonetheless, I do feel that the issue on the border right now is something that honestly--

A lot of these Haitian refugees have been living in Argentina. They've been able to resettle in other countries, or at least extensively able to. The notion that you have to come to the United States seems more of an economic issue than anything else. The notion that somehow anyone who shows up in the border-- In a way, it's almost cruel, because I did a lot of ERO work. ERO being Enforcement and Removal operations.

It's a bit cruel to allow people to come in, get their lives set up in the United States, if they lose their claim, which oftentimes is the case, now you have to remove them after they have put roots down. Maybe that's a problem in terms of how long it takes to process asylum claims, but it seems a bit cruel because otherwise, there is no removal. There's really the notion of there actually being any type of enforcement on either immigration law or for the asylum law to mean anything, it seems like either process the claims quickly or they have to stay in another third country. Mexico, you can apply there as well.

Brian: Steve, I'm going to leave it there for time so we can get some other people in, but I hear all your points. Tracy from the International Rescue Committee. Tracy Reines, would you like to address some of that?

Tracy: I will say I understand that the sentiment of the experience. It is also a fact that the United States has a legal relationship to accept people with valid claims of asylum-seeking. The numbers I think that folks are presuming are coming into US are much smaller percentage-wise than we have the capacity to manage. We are a country of 300 million people and the numbers of people seeking asylum, which is their legal right and are under international law to do, is not an overwhelming number or capacity of our country to absorb.

Particularly again, as Anu mentioned, it's who we are as a country and legally. Yes, the system is complicated. Yes, I don't think anyone in this work believes that the system can't use improvement. That's absolutely true, and there are cross incentives and just inefficiencies that we are all painfully aware of, but in terms of the existence of it and the rights to it, I think we all stand by both in terms of the numbers that we can absorb in a humanitarian fashion, the services we can provide, and the legal rights and obligations both out of the country and for people seeking asylum.

Brian: Well, clarify for people to one of the points that the caller brought up, from you as representing a refugee-oriented agency. What's the definition of refugee and of who would qualify for political asylum? In this case, critics and I think the caller falls into this category, will say, "Political asylum is for people fleeing government oppression based on their status like the Afghans who helped the US fleeing the Taliban now or the Muslims who fled Kosovo during the Balkan genocide or Jews from Nazi Germany," those sorts of things and they don't know why that would apply here.

Tracy: Well, the definition of a refugee is a person who's been forced to leave their country to escape war, persecution, or other natural disasters. There are categories within that of what qualifies for that. The only difference in practical sense is if the person who meets those criteria essentially applies for that status outside of the US or inside the US, but their experience and the background of what they're fleeing is essentially the same.

Asylum seekers extensively have had the same persecution as someone we would call a refugee. It's just that they have not gone through the formal international UN process to claim that. They claim that here in the United States and then we go back and verify that. That's the definition difference is essentially where someone makes that claim, not necessarily what they are fleeing.

Brian: Anu, anything to add about that from the New York Immigration Coalition point of view?

Anu: I'll just add that we have seen Haiti has gone through crisis after crisis just in the last few months, including the assassination of their president, ongoing food insecurity, and then, of course, the recent 7.2 magnitude earthquake that wiped out schools, entire neighborhoods, and half of Haitians that were impacted by the earthquake have yet to receive humanitarian aid.

We also know that just at the end of July, the Biden administration actually designated temporary protected status for Haiti because of extraordinary conditions of insecurity, political upheaval and dysfunction, and violence. For the Biden administration to turn around and say, "It is safe to send Haitians back to a country that has been rocked by instability on so many fronts," is pretty horrible.

Brian: It's unbelievably contradictory and that's part of what the US special envoy for Haiti, Daniel Foote was pointing out in his searing resignation letter yesterday. Anu, do you want to take a shot at a political analysis of why Biden's doing this?

Anu: [chuckles] I honestly don't know. I will say that even right now as we have the best opportunity that we've had in over 30 years to pass a path to citizenship for current undocumented communities in the United States through the process of budget reconciliation, we can not turn away from what's happening at the border and what this administration is carrying out. I honestly don't know the political calculation that the Biden administration is making, but I do know they have a moral obligation to immediately reverse course.

Brian: We'll continue in a minute. We'll take more phone calls. Jovan in Queens. Looks like you're from Haiti. Standby, we see you. Shaheed in Brooklyn, Pakistani immigrant, [unintelligible 00:24:04], we see you. We'll take you, we'll talk about the Afghan resettlement process as well. Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As we're talking about the Haitian and we will get to the Afghan refugee situation. Again, you may have seen the story yesterday, the President Biden's special envoy for Haiti, Daniel Foote resigned with a searing resignation letter that said, "I will not be associated with the United States' inhumane counterproductive decision to deport thousands of Haitian refugees, et cetera, et cetera to a country where American officials are confined to secure compounds because of the dangers posed by armed gangs in control of daily life and yet the president has a deportation policy that, from what we gather, covers the large majority of them, though some are being admitted to the country. My guests are Anu Joshi from the New York Immigration Coalition and Tracy Reines from the International Rescue Committee and Jovan in Queens. You're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Jovan: Good morning, Brian. Long time listening. First time calling.

Brian: I'm so glad you're on.

Jovan: I love your show. Brian, as a Haitian, I live in Queens [unintelligible 00:25:43]. It's like you have kids running out from the yard and let you know there is a wolf on the yard and then you push them out, you close your door. Just to give you an example how Americans are involved on Haiti. They are the one to give you precedent. If you chose, they not accept with him and then you're not going to get that.

I was hearing you talking about legal process to the asylum. When you go in the embassy in Haiti, they give 1,000 people appointment to go to embassy while you paying $200 by appointment. Then they're going to give only 10 people visa to come on United States. Now those people are paying $5,000, $3,000, $8,000 for a family of 3 and then they come here to save their life after the government and then you are trying to kick them out again while you let all the Afghans come on this country. What is that?

Brian: Jovan, I hear you. Let me follow up on one thing that you said at the beginning of your call about the US determining or influencing who's in power in Haiti. I understand that there's a controversy about that taking place again right now, that the US is supporting the current embattled prime minister and some Haitians are questioning, "Why are you taking sides in this political dispute right now? We don't know if that's the best person to run our country during this crisis. Is that your opinion?"

Jovan: No, this guy is lying. They are involved in the assassinate of the president. They're all involved. Haiti is a puzzle. Unless we find all the pieces, we won't resolve no problem in Haiti. Americans don't want Chinese to get in, Americans don't want no country from [unintelligible 00:27:50] to get in to have Haitian. By the same token, they're not going to have you the way you want. They still send the same situation with friends as a result of [unintelligible 00:28:06]. That's a problem we're in.

Brian: From the original Haitian revolution back just after the turn of the 19th century. Jovan, thank you very much. Call us again. Shaheed in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hello, Shaheed.

Shaheed: Hey, Brian.

Brian: Hi, Shaheed. Is that you?

Shaheed: Hi, morning. My name is Shaheed Comrade. That's what you talking?

Brian: Yes, that's you, sorry.

Shaheed: I'm a Secretary-General of Pakistan USA Freedom Forum. Brian, that's a wonderful guests you have, Immigration Coalition in New York and the refugee agency. I'm really thankful for them, that is the thing. First of all, thanks to the person who resigned and showed that we have a people of conscious in this country and he sacrifice for just to raise this issue.

This is all depending on the Americans' policies of the double standard to be honest with you. Years and years, we don't have any immigration policy. Nowadays, it's very hard, practically and economically, people are suffering especially in Haiti at this moment, which is maybe the third country in the world. They go to Argentina and then come back to our borders and then we're deporting the people who's over here knowing this thing that they're back home, even they are on the status DBS in this country and they have the problem in the country and we are sending them back.

Where is this our vice-president? She was a special envoy to this kind of stuff, I think, solving the problem of the refugees on the border conditions of the people humans. She was right that this international law, we signed some kind of convention treaties. Anybody who came to our borders and say, "I'm sorry I [unintelligible 00:29:55] peacefully that I have a problem back home, my life, my family, we should have to give them the refugee status [unintelligible 00:30:02]. This person has to see the judge. Not these officials, which is a very brutal officials of our country who's dealing with the humans. It's not a human thing.

Brian: What would you say though, Shaheed Comrad to the first caller, former immigration lawyer, who says, "We just can't take in unlimited numbers of people who are fleeing poverty or difficult conditions in any country"?

Shaheed: He was very much right, to be honest with you. We cannot take the whole world, but we can create the problem on the world. We can spend more than $2 trillion in 20 years of spending the money knowing this thing that our money is looted, corrupt warlords with the army generals of Americans. He is right, we can't take the whole people, but who create the problem internationally? We create the problem on our side. We try to be a policeman and that's not the whole problem. Let's go to the bottom line that somebody has to take a stand and tell blunt truth.

Brian: Too much US power in the world is what you're saying, right?

Shaheed: I don't know what kind of problem we have. What kind of psychological inferiority complex we have to show the world that we are exceptional. We have superiority complex.

Brian: Shaheed Comrad, thank you very much for your call. Tracy Reines from the International Rescue Committee, you can react to anything from those last two callers, but the caller from Queens, Jovan, was raising something that I could take other Haitian callers waiting to speak on the line saying which is, unfortunately, pitch one group of refugees against another.

If you heard that part of his call that said, "Why are we taking in so many thousands of Afghan refugees, but turning our backs on Haitians? Why do the Afghans get special treatment?" Somebody else is calling, I'm not going to take the call, but I'll say that he's saying, "Why did the Syrians get special treatment a few years ago, and now the Afghans but not the Haitians?" How would you respond to that which, at least based on a small sample of callers, is one of the thoughts on Haitians minds right now?

Tracy: I think it's a good question. Thank you, Brian. I think it's a false dichotomy that when we create an impression of scarcity, then we turn folks on each other to say who is most deserving of assistance. It is a fact that the Refugee Resettlement Program in the United States, again, was taken down to historic lows with the Trump administration and is now creeping itself back up to about 100,000, 225,000 refugees coming through that program, through the Biden administration, which is about on average over time.

We're talking about 100,000 people. This is the largest, this is a country with 300 million population, we are talking in the 100,000, 200,000 range. This is not a zero-sum game, and I think we all run the risk of going down a path of trying to pit who is most deserving, who is in most need, and it's a false choice. I do just want to encourage and remind people of the numbers that we are actually talking about relative to the population of our country, and relative to other countries who take in refugees at a much higher proportion of their population.

We all know that we don't have unlimited resources, but we also know when we compare numbers of budgets, numbers of people, we're starting to debate over what in reality are really almost, I wouldn't say insignificant budget figures, but 100,000 people is 100,000 people, it is relative to the population, the resource and the contributions, and the humanitarian imperative that we all face. I really caution us to not go down a path of basically comparing need and vulnerability.

These are people across the world who are fleeing persecution, who have a rightful demonstration of that concern, who have been protected in other periods of time, as Anu mentioned in Haiti, the Temporary Protective Status after the 2010 earthquake, in a situation where arguably, the situation now in Haiti might be considered even worse when you consider the violence happening. I really caution us not to go down this path of who is more deserving than another when we're talking about the vulnerabilities that we see. This is not a zero-sum game.

Brian: Anu, as we run out of time, by the time the last US evacuation flight got out of Afghanistan, there were more than 100,000 people in that evacuated status, many living temporarily on military bases and things like that, there's also an Afghan community in the New York area, can you give us an update on how the resettlement process is going in this area? We get calls from listeners frequently asking how they can help.

Anu: We estimate that a little over 1,000 Afghan refugees will be coming to New York and because, as Tracy mentioned earlier, because they're mostly being admitted in this humanitarian parole status, they won't have long-term access necessarily to government-funded services through resettlement agencies. We think it's really critical for New York State and our cities and counties to step up.

The other thing I want to mention, and I want to build off of what Tracy said, and something you said, Brian, at the very beginning of the show, is that what we also know is that our immigration system, like many of our other systems, it's been long grounded in racism and we should not lose sight of that, that we saw the really highly disturbing images and accounts from how these Haitian migrants were being treated by border patrol on the southern border and we should really challenge ourselves and I hope the Biden administration fully investigates and holds people accountable for their inhumane actions. I hope everyone listening, everyone who's been paying attention, all Americans are really enraged at what is happening right now and how we are treating human beings that are seeking our protection.

Brian: Anu Joshi, Vice President for Policy at the New York Immigration Coalition, and Tracy Reines, regional director in The Resettlement Asylum and Integration Unit at the International Rescue Committee. Thank you both so much for your time today.

Anu: Thank you.

Tracy: Thank you for having us.

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