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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Last Thursday evening, an Asian American New York city man was stabbed in the back in Chinatown. We've spoken on this show about the overall uptake in crime we've seen since the start of the pandemic, we've talked before about anti-Asian violence, but the kind of targeted attack that we saw on Thursday is part of a surge in violence aimed at Asian Americans here and nationwide. By some estimates, there have been more than 500 of these bias incidents just in New York City since the beginning of 2020.

Per my next guest reporting the American Bar Association of New York estimates that there have been more than 2,500 anti-Asian hate incidents nationwide between March and September of 2020. Despite this alarming surge of violence targeted at Asian Americans, the Manhattan district attorney has sometimes been reluctant to classify these attacks as hate crimes as in the case of the man who was stabbed in the back in Chinatown last Thursday.

This past weekend in a multi-ethnic show solidarity, hundreds of people rally to rise up against anti-Asian hate. As we hit the one year mark since the first COVID stay at home orders, it's worth remembering that even before such restrictions were implemented, Asian-Americans face xenophobic rhetoric and violence at the hands of people who exploited the virus's early emergence in China, somebody called it the China virus, which even if he meant the government of China, not every person limits their perception to just that.

What's going on. What's been the community-led response to these attacks and are elected officials paying enough attention? Joining me now is Arun Venugopal senior reporter in the Race and justice unit here at WNYC. Hi, Arun, so great to have you with us today.

Arun Venugopal: Hi, Brian, thanks for having me.

Brian: Listeners, particularly Asian American listeners of any background listening right now, we invite your phone calls. How have these attacks affected your everyday lives even if you have not been attacked? In what ways are you modifying your behavior because that's a big part of the story right now. Where you at Saturday's rally and if so, what do you want people to know about the community-led response to these attacks? 646-435-7280. How are you changing your behavior if you're Asian American of any background because of the increased risk of attacks or anything else you want to say, 646-435-7280, or tweet your question @BrianLehrer. Arun, tell us more what's going on and why now?

Arun: Well, I think you have two things, one the ongoing problem, this very alarming number of attacks happening against Asian-Americans across the country, a very much in New York City phenomenon. According to the surveys that have been conducted, people in New York are just as likely, in fact, more likely to experience certain kinds of assaults, verbal attacks, spat upon, coughed on, than Asian-Americans and other parts of the country.

As you see from this most recent incident, the one you just mentioned, this is happening in Asian majority areas, such as Manhattan, Chinatown, there's incidents, several days earlier than that, that happened in Flushing, where a woman was shoved to the ground. She blacked out, she needed stitches. This is really alarming to people because it feels like, I think when you speak to Asian Americans there is no safe place. Even Chinatowns are not immune from that kind of random or not so random, really acts of violence that are happening. Some of them are deadly, the person who just got stabbed he could die.

Brian: In a powerful moment from Saturday's Rise Up Against Asian Hate Rally, a man named Noel Quintana address demonstrators last month, his face was slashed on the subway, and here's 13 seconds of what he said at the rally.

Noel Quintana: I called for help, but nobody came for help. There were a lot of New Yorkers there, and I never knew that nobody would help me in this instance.

Brian: Nobody came to his aid, he said. Have other victims of these anti-Asian attacks expressed experiencing the same thing? Is this part of the pattern?

Arun: I certainly think that he voiced something that a lot of people are especially terrified by Brian, which is that they're not sure that the communities is there, that they've got their back. I was right there a few feet from Noel when he spoke. The crowd, it felt like pin-drop silence, hundreds of people there. It was such a sad and unsettling moment and I think I was perhaps projecting, but I couldn't help but feel that there was a sense of shame as people absorbed what he was saying. That there's this other side of New Yorkers, the one that doesn't necessarily come to the aid of someone who was attacked, someone like him, who was attacked in a subway car.

The attacker ran off and he said nobody really was there to video record this incident or to help go after the attacker. This is something you do hear quite often, people are terrified by this. I think what is also important is that he said this at an event like this rally downtown where you had members of the political leadership be present Senator Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, Leticia James, New York State Attorney General, and a number of mayoral hopefuls Maya Wiley, Andrew Yang. If there's anything positive happening, it's that these incidents such as Noel Quintana's are being increasingly being absorbed as like urgent political issues. The question is what do you do with that political mobilization?

Brian: Before we take some phone calls just one follow-up on this notion that it's not going to get reported in the same way or responded to by people who may be around there in the same way. In your article for Gothamist on this you quote Deputy Inspector Stewart Loo, who heads the Asian hate crime task force at the NYPD. He said, "I spoke to people who rob Asian-Americans and they'll tell you why they target Asian-Americans, it's not because they're Asian, they perceive them to be soft targets. They carry cash, they won't report it. It's less likely that they'll identify them and they put up the least amount of resistance." Wow.

Arun: Yes. I asked him the question because I'd heard this perception from another member of the Asian American community Chris Kwok who's on the board of the Asian American Bar Association, New York, who said, "I think it's because we're seeing soft targets." Now, this quote that you just read out where Deputy Inspector Stewart Loo said, "It's not because they're Asian." I think a lot of people think like, "What is that supposed to mean?" Obviously, because they're Asian they there's this cultural construct, if you will, that they're soft targets.

They won't fight back, but I think the way we need to understand it going forward is, does the broader community support populations that are being targeted in this case, Asian Americans. Does the political establishment, are they seen as isolated communities and not simply individuals who may not fight back, but are they seen as isolated communities? Or are they seen as communities who have support from whether it's law enforcement or the political leadership or from the person on the street who's willing to come to their aid?

Brian: Naan in Jackson Heights, you're on WNYC. Hi, Nang, thanks for calling in.

Nang: Well, thank you, Brian. I never called him before, so it's something totally new, but I felt it deserved it. I am of Asian descent first born immigrant and ever since as a child always experienced such racial discrimination, getting beaten up after school and running home and my parents saying not to make a big deal about it. There is some cultural truth to what you just said before, and just recently due to the pandemic and I have to say, generally speaking, taking three steps back, this pandemic has brought up a tremendous amount of issues in every respect, economic racial, et cetera, et cetera.

My wife and I experienced racial discrimination back in March. We had to go to a Columbia Presbyterian Hospital, they wouldn't allow my wife to go in, which is fine, but she was waiting outside. She was harassed by a woman who was literally telling her to go back to her country and also videotaped her as well. When my wife tried to run away from her and walk away from her, she followed her. Previous to that, I have known friends that were spat at. I was yelled at, and my wife was yelled at also walking in Queens. Honestly, nothing new to the Asian community to be quite honest.

Brian: Thank you Nang. When things like this happen and a longtime listener comes out of the woodwork and feels moved to call in for this as their first call to the show, it's doubly sad Arun.

Arun: It is. I think that it's one year now that we've been in this pandemic. There is something in the bloodstream of our society, which is really troubling, and at the same time, we know that this is activated. It was fomented from the top by President Trump, his allies. We have a new administration, President Biden, Vice President Harris have both made statements, but getting at the heart of this is very tough. I don't think it's completely clear how you address this when it seems to be so dispersed throughout the community or the population.

People are still grappling with this. They're just trying to get attention to this problem. The fact that it's not just people who will say, delivery workers who have to contend with this on a daily basis, it happens across the socio-economic spectrum. Doctors who are Asian American have to deal with this, a lot of other people. I think that is something that is both something we have to register and just figure out how you combat that, but it's very troubling.

Brian: Let's take another call, Christine in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Christine.

Christine: Hey, Brian, how are you? First-time caller, longtime listener as well. Your previous caller really resonated with me as well. My husband and I were tackling the upper West side about four years ago by a white male who called me a racial slur. We came back and he charged at us. I had a similar experience working with the cops, they were basically like, "Well, you may have instigated the situation. It's probably better if you just don't press charges." I would say that there were a lot of people who came to my help, but there's always this one woman that I've-- From my experience, this one white woman who always says that she's witnessed everything and points the fingers at me.

I'm Taiwanese American. Yes, it's tough. I think the stereotype that's been placed on my shoulders as a female Taiwanese Asian, that we're meant to be meek, I've actually been more outspoken in my day-to-day life. I'm looked down upon for being outspoken and that I bring conflict or controversy onto myself.

Brian: How do you respond to that? When people bring it up?

Christine: Do you mean with me?

Brian: Yes.

Christine: It's tough to hear because you want to stand up for what's right, you want to establish your boundaries. I think part of it is that people don't expect you to be so outspoken. It's the hardest when it comes from your friends and family, other Asians, other Taiwanese, who think that you should be a certain way. I've been called all sorts of names, aggressive, turnt, abrasive. I think part of it is just like accepting who you are and on a positive note, people look to you as being an advocate and a voice and a support system. There are pros and cons to both.

Brian: Christine, thank you so much for your call and your candor. Deborah in Harlem, you're on WNYC. Hi, Debra.

Debra: Hi Brian. Thank you for taking my call. I'm a big fan first-time calling myself. The whole hate crimes that are happening against Asians are just unbelievably shocking to me. It has changed how I carry myself outside and whether I want to take the subway even or not. I tend to keep my head down and even so I'm half-Korean, but a lot of people still view me as Asian and so it's just been really unfortunate and I have to agree that I feel that people generally perceive Asians to maybe be passive and not report things and so they do see them as easy targets, which is really unfortunate.

Brian: You have actually become more wary of walking outside in recent months because of this surge?

Debra: Yes, I do actively try to avoid the subway. I'm working from home anyways and so I mostly stay at home. Yes, I make sure I'm walking around, my boyfriend's with me, or like I said, I just keep my head down and just keep to myself.

Brian: Debra, thank you so much for calling in. Arun this run of first-time callers being brought out of the woodwork by this and Deborah's story there if you need a practical effect of hate crimes that aren't even directed at you, you haven't had the personal experience and how it chills people's behavior, whether their hate crimes or crimes that perceive you as a soft target and then people can't go about their normal lives.

Arun: I think you cited this figure earlier, Brian, around approximately 500 anti-Asian bias incidents. That's something that the Asian American Federation who organized the rally over the weekend has put out and then thousands more across the country, but the understanding is that there's so many more that don't go reported.

Some people don't even know whether it's worth reporting and where do you report it is anybody going to care? It is very important, I think, to come forward and to report whether it's to a group like Stop AAPI Hate or the Asian American Federation or others because we have to get our hands around this. Of course, we at WNYC, if I could just say, the Race and Justice unit of which I'm a part of, we are making bias and bias crimes and hate a greater part of our focus and we do want to hear from listeners.

If you have ideas as a listener, what you want to see covered in the area of bias, please do reach out to me on Twitter. I'm @arunNYC, A-R-U-N NYC. You can find me on Facebook. This is very important part. Unfortunately, we don't think it's going to go away anytime soon. Whether you're Asian or otherwise, please get in touch with your ideas or experiences of bias.

Brian: Let me get a couple of more callers in here. So many people are calling in. Benish in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello, Benish

Benish: Hi, thanks for taking my call. I'm not Asian, I'm South Asian, but I told the screener that--

Brian: That's Asian.

Benish: It is, I guess. I just want to point out that this could've been anyone. It originated in India. It would have been the Indian virus and South Asians could've been targeted. I think the Southeastern community absolutely needs to step up, absolutely needs to raise its voice.

This needs to be an intersectional issue. We were talking about racial justice not too long ago. This needs to be part of that as well. I feel like South Asians, in general, to keep to ourselves. A lot of times we think, "Well, that's not our issue." It is our issue. We've experienced hate crimes in the past. We've grown up with the city, in the 1980s, there was a huge anti-Indian bias, and hate crimes happened back then.

Arun: The Dotbusters.

Benish: Exactly. People forget about that, but the whole Dotbusters thing was very scary. Our Asian brothers and sisters are experiencing something similar. I just want to say that I think, especially the South Asian community, which is quite diverse in and of itself, needs to absolutely step up and raise its voice on this.

Arun: I think that's such an important issue. As New Yorkers, many of us have lived through ways of anti-South Asian attacks that unleashed at moments of nationalism. It's white supremacy, the complicated part of this is that the attacks against East Asians right now, it's coming from many members of different communities.

That's partly what makes it very messy and muddy to weigh through this and figure out what the best approach to it is, whether law enforcement even works, or whether this should be more about healing communities who are struggling right now, as some people have been saying like, "Hurt people, hurt people." That's I think partly getting at the sensitivities and the need for communities to be forming solidarity with one another, especially groups which have been on the receiving end historically of hate and bias.

Brian: One more call Lucinda in Patterson, you're on WNYC. Hi, Lucinda. Lucinda, you there? Am I saying your name right? Is it Lucinda in Patterson? I guess no Lucinda. We'll finish on that point. What was that historical reference that you made? What busters for people who don't know that?

Arun: I'm not sure if he's still on the phone, but Brian, the Dotbusters were a group of I think primarily white New Jersey residents, who basically when certain communities in New Jersey were seeing an influx of Indian American, perhaps more broadly South Asian residents, this was a racist like a backlash against South Asian people.

Talk to people who are now seeing middle age, that was formative for them in terms of the terror they felt back then. An earlier wave of anti-South Asian violence. When we think about moments like this where we're going through-- You have communities who have been at times valorized, the model minority myth, but this giant switch that keeps on getting toggled and America, Americans decide that they want to like flip it from, "You're on our side. You're not one of us, you're the perpetual foreigner." We have to figure out how we're supposed to respond to that. This is one of those moments, I think right now.

Brian: Last question, Arun. Based on your reporting, do members of the community feel like elected officials are doing enough, or are there specific law enforcement or policy steps that they feel aren't being taken?

Arun: I think you're seeing this real debate, Brian, right now play out at events like the Rise Up Against Asian Hate Rally and happening elsewhere, which is, should the city invest in more resources for this NYPD Asian Hate Crime Task Force, make it fully staffed rather than pulling in detectives here and there. That's what Tish James said onstage or is law enforcement part of the problem as other community members contend?

Somebody from New York Immigration Coalition Murad Awawdeh said, "We can't police our way out of this. We have to provide mental health services, language-appropriate services, and we have to provide resources for community-led healing." I think this is really is a policy issue and how it plays out in the coming months, we're going to have to be watching that.

Brian: Arun Venugopal, senior reporter in WNYC's Race and Justice Unit. Thanks around, we'll be listening and reading you on Gothamist.

Arun: Thanks, Brian. Appreciate it.

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