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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, we turn to New Jersey with our Nancy Solomon, who hosted last night's edition of the Ask Governor Murphy call-in show here on WNYC. Nancy joins us the next morning, each month, for a debrief. This time, of course, they talked mainly about his State of the State address on Tuesday. We'll play some clips of the Governor from last night and from the speech and talk about the issues that were raised. Joining us now to break down all that and more is Nancy Solomon, WNYC reporter and editor, and host of the Ask Governor Murphy monthly call-in show. Hey, Nancy, welcome back to the show.

Nancy Solomon: Hi, thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Let's start where you started last night with the State of the State address, the speech where, obviously, each governor lays out their policy priorities for the year, and you ask what it's like to give a big speech like that if he got nervous. Here's some of what he said.

Governor Murphy: You also want to get a sense of the emotion in the room. Never be too proud to make off-the-cuff comments and live or die with the reactions. That's kind of fun. I wouldn't say nervous. I'm not making light of it, but it's not giving speeches. Maybe it's because I used to act when I was in high school and college. That part of it has not really ever been-- whether they're good or not, whether I deliver them well or not, is a separate point. I'm not nervous walking in there, but it's pretty special.

Brian Lehrer: Nancy, how did the State of the State go?

Nancy Solomon: He does do a pretty good job at the delivery of the speech. He's a pretty good speech giver. I would say that at the beginning of his administration, and it's been six years now, he was proposing some pretty big changes, raising the minimum wage, creating a millionaires tax, a new wind energy industry, restoring funding for Planned Parenthood.

I'd say at this stage of his administration, in terms of what he offered up that he wants to see happen in the new year, it might be going a little too far to say it's nibbling at the edges, but they aren't the big, huge policies that he got done in his first four years. Not that they're not all worthy things that he's suggesting. I'm just saying there's no big surprise, like, "Oh, wow, he's going to do this," kind of a thing.

Brian Lehrer: Should we say the words lame duck? Because Murphy is term-limited. At the end of next year, he's out, and does that reduce the power that he has with the legislature to get big things done anymore?

Nancy Solomon: I'm not ready to go that far yet. He's got two full years. He has an even larger democratic majority in the legislature that he had this past year after the November election. I don't think we're going to see a lame-duck approach. This is going to be a highly political year with his wife running for a US Senate seat. That's going to really change some of the dynamics of his governorship, I would say. I think he still has things he wants to get done.

Brian Lehrer: One of the things that Governor Murphy and Governor Hochul and her State of the State in New York had in common was talking about addressing medical debt. Here's Murphy on that.

Governor Murphy: Pulling people out from under-crushing medical debt is vital, but so is protecting them from falling down that hole in the first place. In that spirit today, with great respect, I'm calling on our legislature to enact a new package that will help families avoid being caught in a medical debt trap and, at the same time, require every single medical bill to be clear and transparent.

Brian Lehrer: What would that include if he got specific enough, Nancy, because I'm sure many years just perked up among many people who do have medical debt?

Nancy Solomon: I think the bulk of this package of bills is about removing the surprise that people get when they get their medical bill, making sure that people understand what a procedure is going to cost them going in. I'm not sure that's going to help a lot of people who need the procedure and don't have a choice, but I think over the years, we've heard a lot about surprise medical bills that people get. I think I have gotten one of those, so I understand the problem. I think that's what we're going to see more of rather than some massive fund that helps people who have had to declare bankruptcy.

That moment was followed by one of the most emotional that I've ever really seen the governor in terms of-- he actually got choked up and had to stop because he wants to name this bill about reducing medical debt for Louisa Carman, who was only 25 years old, worked in the Governor's Office on this legislation and she died in a car accident, New Year's Eve night into New Year's Day. He stopped for a moment and his aides tell me that all week long, as he was practicing the speech, he kept getting tripped up there and having trouble talking about it because it was a truly upsetting thing that had happened to the staff people and him and his administration.

Brian Lehrer: Terrible, and it just happened. One more thing on the medical debt issue though, Governor Hochul talked about removing medical debt from your credit score as a factor in your credit score. I think that might be getting implemented at the national level as well. Did Murphy say anything about that in New Jersey?

Nancy Solomon: No, he didn't say it in the speech and I didn't know to ask him about it last night. No, that hasn't come up. It's an interesting point, and I could try to follow up with that. Come back next month and ask me.

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles] I promise. We'll make a date for February. We did talk about Governor Hochul's State of the State speech yesterday with our Albany reporter, our colleague, John Campbell, and the two speeches pretty much happened back to back. Hers from Albany started in the one o'clock hour, his in Trenton in the three o'clock hour. Both Democratic governors hit some of the same notes, some different ones. One area where they seem to have the same idea and may pit the two states against each other is vying for AI jobs. Here's how Governor Murphy put it.

Governor Murphy: Here in New Jersey, we are announcing an AI moonshot. 63 years ago, President John F. Kennedy declared that we would put a man on the moon by the end of the decade. Today, our state is lifting off to explore the furthest reaches of science in our time.

Brian Lehrer: I'll ask you the same question that I asked John Campbell yesterday after Hochul said a very similar thing. We think of artificial intelligence so much and we've talked about it on this show a lot in terms of how it can destroy jobs. Hochul and Murphy seem to think it can create a lot of jobs that they want to compete for.

Nancy Solomon: Yes, and I would say this was one of his most animated moments in the speech. He is super excited about this. He had had a press conference a couple of weeks ago at Princeton University where they announced a whole initiative where they want to create a corridor from Rutgers University in New Brunswick south on Route 1 to Princeton, and they want this to be the center of artificial intelligence.

What they're looking at is both setting up guardrails and having experts really dig into what kind of rules and regulations do we need on this new technology but also pairing up university researchers with entrepreneurs to kickstart this industry. I'd say Governor Murphy really believes that this is the ticket to a vibrant economy of the future.

Brian Lehrer: It makes me wonder about whether there could be a regional approach because we've seen this on other things in the past, Nancy, right? New York and New Jersey compete against each other to get certain kinds of companies to move to the area. It's gone on in the finance sector where there's a push and pull to get people to move out of Wall Street digs to Jersey City, things like that. They do it by a race to the bottom in offering tax breaks. Whereas I wonder sometimes if we couldn't do a regional bi-state or metro area thing where they try to trumpet the many reasons to be in this area in general, and then they don't have to compete with each other to empty out the tax base just to get companies that may want to be here anyway.

Nancy Solomon: Yes, exactly. I asked the governor about it last night because I kind of meant it as a joke. He was talking about competing with China and how critical it is that we get out ahead of China on this stuff, on AI. I joked that, "But really, you just want to get out ahead of Kathy Hochul, don't you?" He didn't really hear it as a joke. He answered the question and to say, "No, this is a regional thing, and when New York does well, New Jersey does well." It's true. We are part of a regional economy.

This is part of a larger issue that you raised about the state corporate tax break program, which was a real disaster during the Christie administration. A ton of money was spent giving it to companies that had political connections. Murphy has really gotten this tax break program on track to target industries where he believes, and there's a lot of support to suggest that these are growth industries and economies that are going to help the state, and working both to travel abroad and bring back business, but also to work with New York. You're not seeing those companies that move across the border or threaten to move and get a tax break as much as we saw during the Christie administration.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, I see you asked them about people's fears that AI is going to destroy jobs more than take them. Here's 40 seconds of his response.

Governor Murphy: The Chinese and others are trying like heck to get out ahead of us. There's no reason, when you look at what we have in New Jersey, that we can't be one of the authors of the future of this realm. While the fears, I'm not going to deny the fears exist, the former much more tangible, i.e., it could cost me my job versus the world's going to end. Please God, that is a de minimis probability. What I laid out lastly in our vision in the speech yesterday is to essentially upskill jobs and not eliminate them.

Brian Lehrer: The question also came up of jobs for whom, here's a caller from last night who works in the tech industry.

Caller 1: I'm African American, and I work in sustainability in a semiconductor industry. There are not many of us, not many African Americans in this industry. Not enough women, not enough minorities in general. Given that there's CHIPS and Science Act money floating around out there, and the work I do, I hear a lot about Ohio and Arizona and California and Texas and not so much in New Jersey.

I'm wondering what the administration, what you're thinking is in terms of drawing in CHIPS and Science Act money or just semiconductor industry money to the state. That's the first part of it. The second piece is in terms of preparing young people, especially from Black and Brown communities, to be ready for technology jobs, 21st-century workforce.

Brian Lehrer: That was the question, and the governor's response.

Governor Murphy: I want those plants here, let there be no doubt about it. Those big chip fab plants where you need 2,000 or 3,000 acres and you need enormous amounts of energy, we're probably not going to be as competitive as if it is a talent-specific industry where it's basically you're hiring high-end skilled, highly paid individuals more often than not to pick a tech example. Not entirely. There's going to be one big exception in the software side as opposed to the hardware side. I think we're going to separate ourselves as it relates to our generative artificial intelligence on that particular point.

Brian Lehrer: Anything from there, you want to analyze that exchange with that caller?

Nancy Solomon: Well, Murphy loved that call. His answer, you hear in his answer how dug in he is on this stuff, like he really understands it. I have a lot of frustration each month with the show when he kicks the ball to, "I'm going to have my aide call you in the next 24 hours," and what I want him to do is just answer the question. You can't expect the governor to be read in and deeply involved in every single issue. I'll give him that.

This is an issue, as I said, he really understands it. He's a business guy. He understands it. He's committed to it. I thought it was a great answer to be able to say, "Well, we can't get those big chip manufacturing plants because it's too expensive to do that kind of business in New Jersey, but it's not too expensive to do the kind of work that relies on highly skilled labor."

That's why these connections between entrepreneurs and academic researchers is so important to him. He's already created an innovation hub that brings these together. That was just like really in his wheelhouse, and he was so happy to get that question. The caller also brought up how few people of color there are working in his industry. That's another issue that Murphy is very committed to.

He responded to that as well in terms of that this is something he's paying attention to, and he's providing more college tuition and scholarships and building up the pipeline to get New Jersey kids into these programs to become the next workers in these innovative fields. He had a good answer to this. It was a good moment for him.

Brian Lehrer: Listener Amy in Trenton texts, "I wish that AI moonshot would be planned to go farther south to include Trenton and the higher ed infrastructure here, especially Mercer County Community College. Community colleges power the American Dream," writes Amy in Trenton.

Listeners in New Jersey, we can take some more phone calls and texts for Nancy Solomon after last night's Ask Governor Murphy and the governor's State of the State address call-in and ask a question having anything to do with Murphy policy or state and opinion, 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692.

I want to ask you about another area of cooperation or non-cooperation between New York and New Jersey that you brought up over the issue of migrants, and whether New Jersey should be sending the migrants who get diverted there by Mayor Adams' new rules on arrivals straight onto the city as opposed to helping Adams send them back to Texas on those uninvited buses or something like that. Here's a minute of Governor Murphy's response on that.

Governor Murphy: When these folks get on the bus in Texas, they're told in Spanish that their asylum hearing is in New York City. That's what they're told, which is why people ask-- well, and by the way, their NJ Transit fare must be paid by somebody. It isn't by me. They know their destination is New York City.

The two favors Eric and Kathy both asked, which I thought were very reasonable, and we have great relations with each of them, is number one, we were implying early on a week or so ago that New York was awash in federal resources, we had none. We were not a designated destination point. Their very fair point, and we've changed that, is that New York does, have no federal resources. They do have federal resources, but they clearly don't have nearly enough. That's a point that I have to underscore. Thirdly, they asked us if we could look at taking some kind of action against the bus companies, which we were going to do in any event.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to go right onto a clip of a caller from last night, Mark in Highland Park, who offered a suggestion for how the state could handle some of the housing issues for people coming to the area. Here's some of what he said.

Mark: I have this concept about immigration and refugees that, is it possible to give homeowners a tax credit if they take them into their home?

Brian Lehrer: Oh, look, he's calling in, that caller whose clip we were just playing. Let's put him on. Mark in Highland Park, you're on WNYC again. Hi there.

Mark: Again. Thank you. Hi, Brian. Hi, everybody. I just wanted to bring it up again because I feel it's very plausible. One thing that Governor Murphy said that was very interesting, that Germany did something similar when Ukrainian refugees were coming into the country. Now, I live across the street from the Reformed Church, which does this amazing job with immigrants and refugees to minister there, Seth Cougherdale. We need like a thousand Seth Cougherdales to handle the flocks of immigrants coming in, and I've had the privilege to be next to Indonesians and Syrians and Indians who were victims of human trafficking and to watch their lives transform, and we did house some Indonesian refugees at one point. I think it's something that our citizens and homeowners would want to get involved in, and it could make a huge problem, something that fits into everybody's life and to experience-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: We don't have the clip of how the governor responded to your call last night, but did you think he was receptive?

Mark: Absolutely. He said he was intrigued. He actually said it intrigued him and they were going to call me back.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Mark, thank you very much. Nancy, anything on that?

Nancy Solomon: Yes, the governor said he was intrigued, and I think he was, and I think that Mark tripped into, again, Governor Murphy's wheelhouse. He loves using tax credits as an incentive to do all kinds of things. He wants to reform New Jersey's highly restrictive liquor licensing laws that prevent restaurants-- most restaurants don't have a liquor license, can't serve liquor, and he wants to transform that system with the use of tax credits.

In addition to creating incentives for companies to stay in New Jersey or come to New Jersey, he has shown an interest in using the tax incentive program in lots of different ways, which makes sense because you don't have to pass a budget for it because it's something that just-- it's revenue that doesn't come in, basically, when you give a tax credit. I think he was intrigued, and I think now, it'll take Mark and other activists to make this a reality by pushing, at the legislative level, to get something passed.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, on what we discussed earlier about people of color in the tech industry and making sure those opportunities are there, a listener just texted, "I apologize as I'm a first-time listener from Pennsylvania, but regarding the tech industry, I work for a company in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, 50 minutes outside Philly, where a majority of my colleagues are people of color. I'm sure that New York City," and I guess by extension, New Jersey, "can experience the same growth."

I think the caller is making the point and-- I mean, the texter, and whoever you are out there in Montgomery County, I'm glad you found us. Keep texting and give us a call one of these days, but making the point that, yes, if you have the right program in place, you can diversify tech industry workplaces.

Nancy Solomon: Let me clarify because I might've misstated the caller. He talked about being African American and how few African Americans there were, and I might have, in my head, transferred that in my mind to people of color. It could very well be that both things are true. I'll say to the caller from Mercer County, the governor has spent a huge amount of money creating tuition-free community college in New Jersey.

It's not tuition free for everybody, but for people who are-- it's a need-based program, and so that's part of his economic plan for the state is to-- and to deal with shortages in various industries as well, is to create that pipeline and get kids into community college and then onto a four-year degree if they need it or into the workplace. He definitely is a big, big supporter of community colleges.

Brian Lehrer: That listener just dropped in a second text, the listener from Pennsylvania, which says, "Additionally, four of my colleagues commute from Trenton, which is to say even though the jobs are in Pennsylvania, this is good for people who live in New Jersey, people of color." Let me take one more call on a topic that we spent most of our time with John Campbell yesterday with respect to Hochul's State of the State address, and it came up in Murphy's as well. Another central issue for everybody in the tri-state area. I'm going to let Jean in River Edge bring it up. Jean, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Jean: Hi, Brian. I listen to your show whenever I can. One thing I've often heard is about rent control, there's really nothing for seniors in New Jersey that protects them. They put it up 4% and 5%, and no one's salary goes up that high, and then when you get on a fixed income, you're really stuck. I'm just wondering, is that in the works?

Brian Lehrer: Nancy, that in particular-- [crosstalk]

Nancy Solomon: Do you want me to join in? Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Then I'm going to ask you a more general question about affordable housing and the governor, but go ahead.

Nancy Solomon: Affordability was a big part of the speech, and we got several calls. The Anchor Rebate Program, which is a property tax rebate for homeowners, and the proposed but not yet passed senior tax cut for seniors who pay property taxes. Both of those anchor already, and the Stay New Jersey Program that's coming, both of those set-aside rebates for renters.

Now, whether we're going to see more on rent control, I haven't heard that discussed. I think it's a totally legit argument to bring up because rents-- New Jersey goes as New York goes, and in terms of our housing, the prices for housing which affect your property taxes and also the prices for housing that then affect renters most critically, all of that is pushed higher by prices in New York, and so people come to New Jersey looking-- it increases the demand and that increases the price. We've got a real problem with it, and I haven't seen anything about rent control.

Affordability and affordable housing was a part of Governor Murphy's speech. We also got a call about it. He's proposing an overhaul of the New Jersey affordable housing laws and system, and that's critically, critically needed. I think we could see it-- it was up in the lame-duck session. It didn't get passed. He seems optimistic about it, so we'll see in this next year whether they can overhaul that system and get towns to build more affordable housing.

Brian Lehrer: I said to John Campbell yesterday, and I'm working on a piece for our WNYC weekly brief newsletter on the concept that New Yorkers and New Jerseyans agree on these two big things. One, we desperately need a lot more affordable housing. Two, just don't put any near me. Governor Hochul stated the need for hundreds and hundreds of thousands of new homes, but we know her plan for that failed last year.

We don't know how much he can crack through it this year. I saw and heard that Murphy in his State of the State in Jersey promised to build new housing options where they're needed most and locations close to jobs, transit hubs, and main street businesses, but he didn't say how. I'm struck, Nancy, and this will be the the last thing for today.

As you know, New Jersey's court-ordered system of affordable housing in every area of the state has been met with so much resistance. I think it's fair to say from whiter wealthier towns, mostly that it was officially declared moribund by the court in 2015, and like you say, the legislature in Trenton is working on an overhaul, but I guess the question is, can they get enough buy-in when even a court-mandated system was successfully defied for decades?

Nancy Solomon: That is the critical question, and clearly, the fact that they didn't get it done during the lame duck shows that there is some considerable resistance that legislators are hearing from. They come out of these communities, the legislators themselves. Yes, it's a big question, but Murphy did seem-- he talked about it, and basically, he said they need to scrap the system in which the nonprofit housing organization that is appointed by the court to deal with this, has to go town by town by town to make legal challenges, that's not working.

It was innovative in its day, but it hasn't worked. Now, they have to come up with a state plan that is going to require towns to include affordable housing in their housing developments, I think. There's going to be a lot of support for this. There's also going to be pushback, but I think it's possible that this could get done.

Brian Lehrer: We will definitely follow that during the legislative session this year. WNYC's Nancy Solomon, who among other things, hosts the Ask Governor Murphy call-in every month on the station and comes here usually the next morning with clips and analysis like she did today and takes more of your Jersey calls. Nancy, thanks as always.

Nancy Solomon: Thanks, Brian.