Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now we turn to New Jersey with our Nancy Solomon who hosted last night's edition of the Ask Governor Murphy call-in show here on WNYC as she does each month. We started having Nancy on with us on the mornings after. We'll play some clips of the Gov and touch on at least these issues that came up last night. The good news for many people, that the minimum wage will finally hit $15 after years of slowly raising it even to that pretty low level.

The bad news for some Jersey drivers is that they could get hit with New York City's coming congestion pricing fee so New Jersey is now suing. Phil Murphy's wife Tammy Murphy is running for the US Senate and some critics are crying nepotism. Joining us now to break down all that and more is Nancy Solomon, WNYC reporter and editor, and host of the Ask Governor Murphy monthly call-in show. Hey, Nancy, welcome back to the show.

Nancy Solomon: Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Let's start with the minimum wage, which will go up to $15 statewide in the new year, which was a big goal for Governor Murphy. It's been slowly phasing in over the years, as I said, because a lot of people, particularly small business owners thought it would put a strain on their finances. Let's take a listen to how the governor sees that issue and the progress toward it in his speaking to you last night.

Governor Phil Murphy: We've had 60,000 new small businesses open over the past couple of years. We're at an all-time high. It shows that these are not separate, one feeds into the other. If you pay me more money, I've got more money to consume, to go out to dinner, maybe put toward a kid's education, et cetera. I think the debate upon reflection, given what people get paid these days, is almost quaint frankly, and I wonder whether or not we shouldn't be taking this higher. That's something I'd be very open to.

Brian Lehrer: Nancy, talk about a little about the process of getting that minimum wage up to even $15. It sounds like the governor was proposing it should go higher.

Nancy Solomon: Right. Murphy campaigned on this for his first term. It was a priority of progressive and labor activists when he became governor in 2018. It took a year to get through the Democratic-controlled legislature because he got off to a rough start with them and was fighting over-- there was like a political power fight with the South Jersey machine and so they held up some of the central tenants of his agenda.

This is the Democrats in the legislature who had been trying to pass a minimum wage and being blocked by Chris Christie for his two terms. It was more about politics than any kind of ideology, but they finally got it done and it's a big accomplishment for him. I've always thought that it was one of the ways that showed that even though he's a very rich man, he has not entirely forgotten his working-class roots.

I think he just said this last night, I didn't get a sense that he's actually working on something, but he did say he could see it going up higher. That $15 after all these years that they phased it in a little bit each year, it now seems low and maybe he said he would consider something more like $18 to $20 an hour. That would make it the highest in the country, but like I said, I don't think this is something he's actually working on.

Brian Lehrer: He's term-limited after 2025, isn't he?

Nancy Solomon: Yes. This is his last term.

Brian Lehrer: He's got two more years to propose that and see if he's got enough clout to get it through the legislature if that's a high enough priority to even do that. Does he talk about indexing the minimum wage to inflation? Because that's the holy grail of this, that there doesn't have to be a political process every single time to keep up with inflation.

Nancy Solomon: Yes. I believe it is indexed and that it will continue to rise, but it's a pretty small amount. I don't know that it's full on what you experience when the sticker shock you [unintelligible 00:04:36] the supermarket.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, the 9% from 2022.

Nancy Solomon: Right, but it is a small amount.

Brian Lehrer: Small businesses didn't like that one. Staying on the money, Governor Murphy wants to get rid of a tax on some businesses, the corporation business tax surcharge, as it's called. Can you explain that to our listeners?

Nancy Solomon: Yes. He passed this, I can't remember what year it was, but basically, it's a surcharge tax. Corporate businesses pay a corporate business tax, but companies in New Jersey that have more than a million dollars in profit annually, he had levied this additional tax. He did it as a temporary measure that automatically sunsets this coming year. He's been under pressure, most notably from progressive activists and different policy groups that do-- Left-leaning progressive policy work on taxation have been pressuring him to re-up it, and he has held firm that he doesn't want to.

Brian Lehrer: It's just a tiny percentage from what I'm seeing of all the companies in New Jersey, just 2%. I guess like top 2% in terms of profits are subject to the surcharge and yet it generates a billion dollars in revenue for the state, which is really meaningful.

Nancy Solomon: Exactly, yes. That's precisely why a lot of the activists are saying it should stay is that, we're talking about the Amazons and the Walmarts and it helps the budget, but Murphy says, he doesn't want New Jersey to be known as the highest business tax state in the country. He's trying to recruit businesses to come to New Jersey and that this hurts him in that fight and that he did it to get the state's fiscal health in order and now the state can live without that revenue.

Of course, the activists and advocates say, no, it can't. For instance, they'd like to see some of that money be dedicated towards improving New Jersey Transit.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners in New Jersey, we can take your phone calls for Nancy Solomon after last night's Ask Governor Murphy. Whether you were listening last night or not, you can call and ask a question having anything to do with Governor Phil Murphy policy in New Jersey or the issues that we're raising in the conversation. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text.

Let's go on to the issue of congestion pricing for driving into Manhattan below 60th Street. Obviously, this is going to impact New Jerseyans. Here's the governor on why he's suing New York for what he thinks is a bad deal.

Governor Phil Murphy: If it was a fair deal, including some of it coming back to Jersey, if the George Washington Bridge was not excluded, then you know what, I think you can get [unintelligible 00:07:54] and try to figure something out, but right now, there are two realities that are unacceptable. One is Jersey [unintelligible 00:08:00] Jersey commuters are getting their eyes ripped out. Two, Jersey is not getting any of the money back to your point, Gabrielle, and three, because of the uniqueness of how the George Washington Bridge has been treated, the pollution isn't being reduced, it's being displaced.

Brian Lehrer: He was answering a question of a caller named Gabrielle last night in case that was confusing. What's in the lawsuit and what is New Jersey helping to get out of it? [silence] Did we lose Nancy? I think we've lost Nancy. Did we lose me? I'm here. All right, we'll get Nancy back. 212-433-WNYC is our phone number again, 212-433-9692. You can't ask Governor Murphy this morning, but you can ask Nancy Solomon about asking Governor Murphy. 212-433-9692. Call or text.

I know one of the things that he referred to in that clip in that he's concerned about with respect to congestion pricing being unfair to New Jersey. Remember one of the main reasons for congestion pricing is so the MTA gets more money to improve mass transit, but the MTA only covers New York, not New Jersey. I think one of the things that the governor was raising there is that NJ Transit like the MTA also suffers from underfunding.

He referred to NJ Transit as a wreck last night, so I wonder if there could be a deal where some of the money from congestion pricing goes to improve mass transit region-wide, which would include NJ Transit, but I don't think anybody at the MTA on the New York side is talking about that. I Think we have Nancy back. Nancy, are you there? Oh, not yet. All right. Then let me take a phone call. Sarah in Montclair, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sarah.

Sarah: Oh, hi. Brian, I'm just so thrilled to have been able to get through. I was very concerned when I heard Phil Murphy say last night that he's proud of his election reform because I've been researching election campaign financing in the state of New Jersey, and the evidence shows that the New Jersey Democratic Party led by Phil Murphy is committing fraud on a scale comparable to Madoff, and my town, Montclair is in the epicenter.

Phil Murphy is blocking all of our efforts through the press and through the judiciary to expose the corrupt Spiller administration who is sabotaging our safety and security. How is that consistent with election reform? How is that protecting our democracy?

Brian Lehrer: Sarah, thank you very much. I think we do have Nancy back now. Nancy, you there?

Nancy Solomon: Yes. Yes, I am.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have info on what Sarah was referring to there from Montclair? Are you familiar with the issue she was raising?

Nancy Solomon: I know that there have been issues in Montclair. I have not covered it. I have not followed it. I know that Sean Spiller is in the leadership of the statewide teachers' union, and that has caused some issues because he's also the mayor of the town and there's been some fights. To be honest, I can't really weigh in on it.

Brian Lehrer: We always appreciate the guests who say, "I don't know," when they don't know, rather than try to fake it. How about that lawsuit? Can it hold up the congestion pricing fee start date, which I think the MTA is hoping will be this spring and maybe clarify the grounds for that suit? Nobody wants to be charged the congestion pricing fee, but what's the legal argument?

Nancy Solomon: They're saying that the environmental impact statement that was conducted wasn't done properly, wasn't extensive enough, and that it didn't look at the impacts of the congestion pricing on New Jersey. Not so much what it'll cost New Jersey drivers, but say if people start driving around up to Northern Manhattan to avoid the tax, is that going to cause more air pollution in that corridor that goes up along Northern Manhattan and up through Nyack and back around? I think that's their main play.

From our reporters and Stephen Nessen, who covers this all the time as a New York transportation reporter, there doesn't seem to be a lot of concern that they're really going to be able to hold this up, but they seem to think so. I get the sense from what Murphy has said various times on the show that they're looking for a more advantageous negotiating position and that they want leverage to be able to negotiate down the price that'll cost New Jersey drivers who, of course, pay the tolls to get into Manhattan.

The MTA is offering a $5 break on the congestion tax to account for the tolls, but the tolls are much higher than that. They're more like $15, $17.

Brian Lehrer: Overall, New Jersey drivers would pay more to drive into the business district than people coming from most other places in New York State or in Connecticut. That one other issue that I touched on while we were getting your phone reconnected which in a way is a fair issue, but it's probably not a legal issue that a court would rule on, one of the main reasons that the MTA wants to impose congestion pricing at all is to fund the MTA so that we can improve mass transit and get more people out of their cars.

That's only on the New York side, right? New Jersey drivers would pay this, but none of the money goes to NJ Transit, which is also underfunded.

Nancy Solomon: Yes. That came up last night with a caller who said, "Hey, this isn't fair. How come some of the money isn't going to New Jersey Transit?" The governor agreed with the caller. It's important to recognize that New Jersey commuters who work in New York City, they take advantage of the MTA. they use the MTA, they drive on New York streets. It's a little too much us and them I think, this analysis, that improvements to the city of New York are really improvements that help New Jersey residents.

Now are New Jersey residents going to have to-- is it really going to fall on their backs more than everyone else? I think that's a legitimate argument. Would it be nice if some of the money went to New Jersey Transit? Of course. New Jerseyans use the MTA every day. I really think that people are just-- they're upset, they're worried about what this is all going to mean. In the end, cities around the world that have done this, it has turned out to be a good thing. I feel like there needs to be a balance of viewpoints of looking at this whole thing.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Let me skip over to the issue that the most callers are calling about that came up on Ask Governor Murphy last night, and I'll bet you can guess what it is. I'm going to set up the clip of the governor responding to a caller named Ohtana, who probably accused the governor of nepotism for the fact that his wife, Tammy Murphy, is now running for Senate.

Governor Phil Murphy: If she were a baseball, I hope Doug Doyle is listening, she would be the Shohei Ohtani. She's a five-tool athlete. I really believe that. She does it all.

Nancy Solomon: She's your wife-

Governor Phil Murphy: She's my wife, correct.

Nancy Solomon: -so you're supposed to think highly of her.

Governor Phil Murphy: Yes, but I've seen her in action. I think the fact that she is my wife, it's the opposite of nepotism, is what I'm seeing in the people who are not supporting her. I think they're holding it against her that she's my wife, and I bet you if she were my husband, it would be a different story.

Brian Lehrer: All right. There's Governor Murphy, and I see I misread that transcript. He wasn't responding to a caller named Ohtana. He was referring to the baseball player, Shohei Ohtani, a five-tool athlete. Tammy Murphy is running for Senate. Is she challenging Senator Menendez who, of course, is under indictment? What's the situation there?

Nancy Solomon: Yes, Senator Menendez is under indictment for bribery, corruption, and helping the Egyptian government. He's lost the support of the party organizations across the state, which we can talk about in a minute and is quite important. He basically has said he's not stepping down. He's made murmurs about that not stepping down means running again, but he hasn't really announced his run.

In the meantime, Tammy Murphy has said she's running and immediately got the support of the party organizations all across the state. Most notably the most important ones, the ones that have the most democratic voters for a primary. Also, the first person to jump into the race was Congressman Andy Kim, who's on the northern edge of South Jersey, let's put it that way. His district. He is very much supported by many progressives in the state who are very excited about his candidacy. They like him.

This has raised a huge issue which is it's just become something that me and other reporters have talked about for a few years now, but it's really raised the issue of the way New Jersey designs its ballots. That has blown up in the face of the Murphys.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Jamie in Plainfield, who's going to represent the group of callers who want to weigh in on Tammy Murphy running for Senate. Jamie, you're on WNYC with Nancy Solomon. Hi.

Jamie: Hi, Nancy. I used to work for Congressman Pallone years ago, but it just seems typical to me of New Jersey politics that this is happening. I worry more about the general election because more than likely if she's got the boss's support, they'll probably be the nominee. My concern is that with a lot of suburban voters, this may backfire because they're going to think about Menendez and his wife and all the stuff going, the shenanigans there. I just was wondering what you thought about that.

Nancy Solomon: Oh, interesting. We've been so focused on the primary. We haven't thought about the implications for the general, but I don't know, it's been 50 years since a Republican won a Senate seat in New Jersey. There are a million more New Jersey voters-- I'm sorry. There are a million more Democratic voters in New Jersey than Republican voters, although there is an even larger number of people who are unaffiliated, so yes, any election can swing.

I don't know. I think this has really blown up in the face of the Murphys in a way that they did not anticipate and expect because you can understand we all live in bubbles. They live in a bubble in which they hear from the people around them about what a great idea this is. Tammy Murphy has built up a lot of support in her own right around the state. She has showed up for every little event and every ribbon cutting. She's done some major policy work as part of the governor's administration for which she is a volunteer. She has made contact and built relationships with people involved in politics all around the state.

They thought, "Hey, she's a great candidate," but I think they didn't realize how this was going to look and how people were going to respond. In my bubble, I get emails and calls all the time from people who are upset about this, but that's the nature of-- People who are happy about things don't call me, so I feel like I can also have some of the same bubble problems that the Murphys get on the other side.

My sense is that people are really unhappy about this, and there is a real movement afoot to change the way New Jersey designs its ballots which are different than every other state in the country and have a huge impact on who can win a primary. Then, of course, yes, if you win the primary and you don't have statewide general support, it's a problem. I don't see that happening, but I think it's an interesting point.

Brian Lehrer: Let me take one congestion pricing lawsuit call and then we're out of time. Chris in Bricktown, you're on WNYC. Hi, Chris.

Chris: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Hi, Chris. Go ahead.

Chris: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Chris: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Going back to the congestion price control, I'm skeptical of this. Maybe over a year ago, they took away the discount crossing the George Washington, in particular, the rideshare discount. It used to be approximately $7, $8. They took that away. Now we're up to $15.

I applaud them for trying to rectify this for the people who come into Manhattan, but as it stands now, it seems like it's going to be costing people $15 at the bridge and possibly $15 to get into the city. Public transportation. What do we do? What was the governor's comment on this?

Brian Lehrer: Chris, thank you very much. $15 minus $5 for the discount as proposed to get into the business district. Nancy, last response.

Nancy Solomon: The governor said no, he doesn't like it and he's fighting it. I don't know that he's ultimately going to win that fight. I'm surprised there isn't more discussion about setting certain rates for certain hours to account for the people who drive in because they come in late at night and work a night shift and public transport doesn't work for those folks. Maybe there are some ways to nibble at this at the edges to make it work for the people who must drive. It seems to be going forward. That's, I guess, my last word on it.

Brian Lehrer: There is a discount for night shift people if they come in after 9:00 PM as I understand it.

Nancy Solomon: Oh, okay.

Brian Lehrer: That's starting pretty late. All right. We will leave it there for this month with Nancy Solomon coming on the morning after her monthly Ask Governor Murphy call-in on the station. If not before, Nancy, talk to you on the morning after you do ask Governor Murphy in January.

Nancy Solomon: Okay. Happy New Year, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: And to you.

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