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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Well, as we mentioned in the last segment, today is the 20th anniversary of the US invasion of Iraq. Could the bad reputation of that war and the war in Afghanistan be one of the reasons for a recruitment problem the military is having these days? Statistics I've read say they came up 15,000 recruits short of their goal last year, and are still falling short in 2023. Iraq and Afghanistan, the pandemic, the general labor shortage, too many Americans who don't meet the qualifications to join the military, what combination of factors is contributing? We'll talk now with Major General Johnny K. Davis, commanding general of the US Army Recruiting Command based at Fort Knox, Kentucky. He has served in Iraq, among other international deployments, and has been commanding general of the army's joint modernization command. He's also been awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart, among other honors. General Davis, first of all, thank you for your service and welcome to WNYC.

Major General Johnny Davis: Yes, sir. Good morning and thanks for having me, sir.

Brian Lehrer: To set the scene, I see the debate about whether the word crisis is applicable now to describe the shortage of recruits compared to the army's recruitment goals and the military's in general. Is the army or the armed forces generally in recruitment crisis as you see it?

Major General Johnny Davis: Well, sir, first and foremost, let me set the stage with the prioritization at the army level. I'll tell you, the secretary of the army's number one priority is recruiting. Of course, with that, I also like to add from the chief of staff of the army, he's said this over and over again, quality over quantity. Going back to your earlier statement, yes, there's a lot of different-- '22 was a challenging year. "23, it's just that the current market is challenging, and there's a lot of things at play here, sir. You talked about the market, you talked about COVID.

Now, let me give you an idea just of COVID. We got about 8,000 recruiters in every zip code, and think about that recruiter not having access to a high school for two and a half years. That's an entire generation that we've not been able to interact with compared to, let's say, my upbringing in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and meeting a young recruiter. Of course, qualification is another level. I'll stop right there to answer some additional questions, but we are fighting for every single superstar out there. Again, we didn't get here overnight, and we're reaching for the stars to get after filling the ranks. I'll stop right there.

Brian Lehrer: By the numbers, how would you describe the shortfall?

Major General Johnny Davis: Well, sir, I can't foretell the future, but I will say we're doing better than we did last year. Every day that we improve, it gets us more and more closer to the secretary's goal and the chief of staff of the army's goal of really filling the ranks.

Brian Lehrer: What were the numbers last year?

Major General Johnny Davis: About 15,000 shortfall last year.

Brian Lehrer: How different is the issue in different branches of the military?

Major General Johnny Davis: Sir, I don't know all the details regarding each of my sister-- we talk regularly, but all of us are facing a challenging recruiting environment. That's your point. What we're seeing are the same difficulties that my partners in the Navy, the Air Force, but of course, in terms of scale, we certainly have a larger force and have to bring in more recruits.

Brian Lehrer: For the background information of my listeners who don't follow these things closely, what's the total number of troops currently serving in the armed forces today, roughly, if you know?

Major General Johnny Davis: Yes, sir. I would say between 450,000, 470,000. That's just active component. When you include National Guard and reserve, your total army is a little over 1 million soldiers.

Brian Lehrer: Many in our audience here in the New York area who are skeptical of the military in general and the Pentagon budget in particular, this has come up on the show recently with a number of guests, may be wondering why should I care about a recruitment shortage. Our country has been too militarily adventurous for generations now, these critics would say. We need money for domestic issues and anyway, we don't fight wars anymore with lots of troops in person like in the two world wars or even Vietnam. What would you say to any of that?

Major General Johnny Davis: Well, sir, of course, you need to have a armed force in case when called upon as a nation to protect the nation, but we'll also remember what the armed forces are also there to do. Yes, if called upon, we can deploy, fight in any environment, but let's remember what our army does. I've served in National Guard in college years ago, and of course, on active duty, but we do a lot of things.

Every national emergency, whether it's a hurricane or any event, whether it's the fires out West or drought, when tornadoes, any natural disaster, you'll see your sons and daughters out there in uniform serving their communities. That's what you see each and every day. Yes, we all know that, of course, when called upon, we will absolutely do our duty, but when you think of an event, a natural disaster, when you see on television, you'll see our American men and women in uniform, helping out their fellow citizens.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you're a veteran and you think young people should enlist so the military can meet its goals, call in, or if you don't or if you have any comment or question on the military's recruitment problems these days for Major General Johnny K. Davis, commanding general of the US Army Recruiting Command, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. Let's take a phone call right now. Here's Roland in Washington, D.C. Roland, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Roland: Good morning. How are you all doing?

Brian Lehrer: Doing all right.

Roland: First off, thank you, General, for your service. I served in the recruiting command in the northeast in the years following the Vietnam War, and it was very difficult to get very intelligent young people to join an organization, which had just fought a war that didn't make any sense to people. When my brother got hurt in Iraq, and we had to be airlifted to Wiesbaden, I called my mother to tell her, and she said, "Why is your brother in Iraq?" At the end of it, it didn't make any sense to my mother. Young people today have the internet, they're more socially conscious, we have a lack of shared sacrifice because the military is viewed very differently than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

During the Iraq call up, I saw a 50-year-old sergeant who was a reservist who's been ordered back to active duty painting a side of an M1A1 battle tank, that was about to be shipped to Iraq, don't forget 9/11. I said, "Sergeant, that had nothing to do with Iraq." He said, "Sir, then why are we going to Iraq?" I think this mixed message is not lost on the target people that I was trying to get into the army when I worked in the recruiting command. Thank you, sir.

Brian Lehrer: Roland, thank you very much. General?

Major General Johnny Davis: Well, thanks, sir, for that comment. I will tell you-- thank you for your service, I also served in Iraq, I've served in Afghanistan, I've served in many, many theaters, and I'll tell you, when called upon, that is so important, but when you talk about the current generation-- so example, I have children, and my oldest daughter, she's also in the United States Army and deployed at this time, second daughter served in the Marine Corps, but yes, it is really trying to communicate with them about the power of service and the opportunities it provides.

I know there's some potential misperceptions out there about military life. I went to event recently in Indianapolis, and I spoke to a couple of future prospects who were thinking about service and one of the questions are, "Hey, sir, I thought if I joined the Army, I can't have a car." Well, I don't know where that came from. That's not true. Another one, hey, can I have a pet? I'm totally taken aback by this and this was all in one event, different time sir. The other one was, hey, I heard that I will not get paid until I complete basic training and advanced training and that's not true at all. These things I think are having these misperceptions or misinformation that's traveling out there is I think impacting this youth.

Again, without having the recruiter touchpoints or engagement with them during COVID has not helped at all. That's where we're focused on to raise that awareness, because that's so very important. The questions that I've received I know are pretty much hard to believe, sir, and I'm sure you would agree, but that's circulating out there. I need your help to really share your story and also tell them about the opportunities that the service provides.

Brian Lehrer: How do you have a pet if you're living in a barracks?

Major General Johnny Davis: Yes, sir not everyone lives in the barracks. If you're in the barracks we have-- yes, sir, in the barracks environment let's say as a E1, E3, if you're living inside the barracks certain policies prevent a pet, but if you're a married soldier and you live off post or you live on post housing you can absolutely own a pet.

Brian Lehrer: The caller was emphasizing the difficulty that he had as a recruiter after Vietnam and relating it to how people feel about US deployments now after Iraq and Afghanistan. Here it is the 20th anniversary of the US invasion today. Both parties tend to praise the military, but called the Iraq War an epic mistake at best, imperial aggression at worst, but mistake at best, that caused thousands of American troops lives. Not to mention all the injuries.

Where's the trust that people won't become cannon fodder for some politicians' dreams of conquest or overreaction? How do you, as someone who served in Iraq, feel about the war as it affected and affects the US and how much do you think that's contributing to the recruitment problems?

Major General Johnny Davis: Sir, thanks, and being a veteran of both Afghanistan and Iraq and what I will tell you is I loved my service. I loved serving the men and women to my left and right who were with me in tough times and also carrying the hardship. In terms of what we are seeing on the ground is not attributed to that. What we're being told and this is on the minds of the younger generation.

Hey, if I serve, of course, health and safety or I put my life on hold or it may hamper my opportunities and I will share that the opportunities we provide are unlike any other in terms of the doors it may open in terms of future, college, investing in yourself, service, I can go on and on. Yes, sir, I have served, I love my service to this country, I loved serving the men and women to my left and right and when called upon, deployed and served with honor with the men and women to my left and right to include service with former recruiter.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned before that the Secretary of the Army's emphasis in dealing with this shortage is quality over quantity of recruits. I think Roy in Fairfield Connecticut has a comment or a question about that. Roy, you're on WNYC with Major General Johnny K. Davis, Commanding General of the US Army Recruiting Command. Roy, hi there you're on the air.

Roy: Thank you very much, Brian. Thank you, General. I'm a 34-year veteran of the United States Army Reserve and prior Connecticut Army National Guard. I would say the biggest problem that we're going to have with recruiting is a lot of the individuals that would be interested are not physically ready. You see podcasts with the former Trade Out Commander.

He had been a West Point grad and had taught physical Ed when he was at West Point. Had gotten his master's in anatomy and physiology. He stressed that the security risk that we're going to face going forward because especially in the South, where you're going to get a lot of bang for your buck in terms of a lot of recruits, that's where the health crisis is becoming really, when it comes to health and physical fitness and nutrition.

The second thing I would say is my years being in I shadowed a recruiter many times and he stressed to me that even when I was in my late '20s, early '30s, I don't need you. I need somebody who's 20, who's 18, who's going to speak the story of the United States Army and I put it to you, I think that you're really engaged. I saw you on a Heritage Foundation Podcast and I think you're doing a great job and you're asking the right questions and going to the recruiters. I think one of the best things that you could do is go after young people, get incentives for young soldiers to shadow recruiters more in a comprehensive way, as we have sometimes done in the past. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Roy. General.

Major General Johnny Davis: Yes, sir, and thanks for that. You talk about the challenges and the qualification are certainly daunting. When you look at it only 23% of those between the age of 17 and 21 are eligible, whether it's academic, whether it's physical, whether it's multitude, moral, legal. One of the things and I like--

Brian Lehrer: Can I jump in on that? Because that's going to be shocking to a lot of the audience. Is that different than in the past? Is young America today a more out of shape America, a more less educated America? How different is this than in the past?

Major General Johnny Davis: Sir, we've seen declines in the qualified. Yes, it is dropping whether or not it's attributed to-- it could be a lot of different things, but what I'm telling you from the number of potential recruits that come in that qualified number sir, is decreasing every year. Now, what we're doing to try to address that, because we can't stand by and watch this number continue to fall.

One particular thing that we've done is called the Future Soldier Prep Course. What that's done is we've actually in terms of an academic, if they would not otherwise qualify, we would bring them on active duty in a status that allows us to invest in them from an academic perspective. We'll bring them into a structured environment with the men and women who are also having some academic difficulties. We'll teach them classes, math, census structure, writing. What we've seen is that after about 30 days, the standards or the academic outcomes are 20 points higher when taking the [unintelligible 00:18:33] and we're witnessing about a 90%, 95% success rate.

What we're doing is investing in this youth that would not otherwise qualify. This is eye-opening. We've not done this in the recent past and we're really starting to invest in that. That's the academic. Then we also have a physical piece that in terms of if they're 2% or 3% over in body fat we'll also bring them in and also invest in them. This is not changing their total, what you would think some crash diet. No.

We bring them in, we do physical fitness, we invest in them in a bunch of different areas. Before you know it, they're actually doing very well each and every week and that's a high 90 plus percent success rate. Yes, we can't stand by and watch the number of qualify continue to drop in. Sir, it is. What we've done is invest in this population with the Future Soldier Prep Course.

Brian Lehrer: It's a sorry commentary on the health and fitness of young America, whether or not anybody in the listening audience cares about army recruitment goals, isn't it? That you have to deal with this at all. All right, I won't make you respond to that. I guess it was more of a statement in reaction to what you were saying. A few more minutes on the military's recruitment shortage with Major General Johnny K. Davis, Commanding General of the US Army recruiting command based at Fort Knox, Kentucky. Do they still keep the gold there, by the way? That's probably what a lot of lay people think first when they hear Fort Knox.

Major General Johnny Davis: [laughs]. Sir, there's a lot of things kept here. I won't go into the details, but yes, it is the--

Brian Lehrer: Depository.

Major General Johnny Davis: It's still the gold depository.

Brian Lehrer: Nancy in Manhattan, you're on WNYC with General Davis. Hello?

Nancy: Hi. Did you say, Nancy? Yes, it's you, Nancy?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, it's you, Nancy.

Nancy: Okay, I'm sorry. Thank you General Davis for your service first of all. I'm just concerned, if I were to read an advertising brochure for joining the armed services and under the category, women, and not feel that something was really being done to protect so many, and I don't know statistically, I suppose it's not comparative to the rest of the country in normal life, civilian life, a huge amount, but the women who have been abused sexually, bullied, who have "suicided" and not received justice, their families have not received justice.

It's still very unclear what's happening to women in the armed services. I'm glad your daughters have had positive experiences, but could you address what's going on to improve that situation?

Major General Johnny Davis: Ma'am, and I will tell you first of all, thanks for the question. Your army takes this very seriously. I have two daughters. My oldest daughter is on active duty right now. Of course, like any parent is, first of all, proud of my daughter's service, but I'm also as a parent, always thinking about her. I'll tell you she has been in 10 years, and all the soldiers to her left and right are just wonderful, and she loves her service. We take this seriously big time, and we do not play games. If there's an area that needs to be investigated or taken a look at, we will immediately jump and execute that. I just want to share that with you from a parent of a female soldier.

Brian Lehrer: Let me follow up on that, and Nancy, thank you for raising that. Follow up on that with an MSNBC opinion article that is on the web right now. Headline, New Data Shatters the Right Wing Myth that a 'Woke' Army is Deterring Recruits. It says, "The associated press obtained data from a survey of thousands of 16 to 28-year-olds that was commissioned by the army and carried out by a private research contractor."

According to the AP, on average, only 5% of the respondents in the surveys listed wokeness as an issue compared with 13% who said they believe that women and minorities will face discrimination and not get the same opportunities. What do you say to the results of that survey and those right-wing politicians as described here, who are saying the army has a wokeness problem?

Major General Johnny Davis: Sir, what I will add, I would say that's not what I see on the ground in terms of feedback from my recruiters and the applicants. I think I'll let the politicians work with that one, but what I see in uniform on the ground is not that. Their questions are, hey, what opportunities can I pursue? How does this help me after my term of service? Can I take these skills with me if I stay in or if I exit and join the workforce? That's what I see on the ground, and we're very diverse and we offer great opportunities.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. Nelson in the Bronx, you're on WNYC with Major General Johnny K. Williams, Head of the Army's Recruiting Command. Hi, Nelson.

Nelson: How's it going?

Brian Lehrer: Good, thanks for calling in.

Nelson: Don't call me, sir. I work for a living, sir. I used to be in enlistment for five years.

[laughter]

Yes, sir.

Brian Lehrer: Is that an inside army joke? I don't know. Don't call me, sir, I work for a living.

Nelson: It is an inside. Yes, non-commissioned officers are always saying that. Don't call me, sir, I work for a living.

Brian Lehrer: Okay.

Nelson: It's an inside army joke. Sir, the problem that I have with this voluntary enlistment is that half of 1% of the nation's population serves. Half of 1%. Not usually, but there's a great percentage of that is family. Like my great uncle served, my father served, I have a brother and a sister, we all served. My sister and my brother did 20 and 22 years in the Navy. Her husband did 24.

My aunt did 20 in the Navy. My son served also in the Navy. I was the only one that served in the army. I'm not sure why, but that's neither here nor there. My problem is that we should make everyone serve because it makes people better citizens and it would diminish the political will to go to war for no reason when a senator's son is also serving, or Congress'.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Nelson, thank you very much. What you're making me think about Nelson is that my former congressman, now retired, Charles Rangle, used to call for a renewed draft because what we had during the height of the Iraq and Afghanistan deployments, in his view, was an economic draft that caused poor people of color to be overrepresented at risking their lives for their country, as well as it was too easy for politicians to send us to war.

Like Nelson is saying calling from the Bronx, without senators' kids and so forth, also having to serve. What do you say to the caller and do you agree that there's been an economic draft in effect that has caused an over-representation of poor people of color?

Major General Johnny Davis: Sir, what I would add is I'm part of the all-volunteer force, and this year will be the 50th anniversary of the all-volunteer force. I would tell you, it's a powerful all-volunteer force. Yes, 1% have served. That data we are all very familiar with, but if you think about it, let me take you back to, let's say my grandfather was a World War II vet.

Since then, you know the vet population is declining, but I can remember when I was a young 10-year-old in Wisconsin with my grandfather, I knew mostly all of the other homeowners in our neighborhood were mostly also World War II or Korea vets. That's not the case now based on the scale of service compared to back then to now. That's why 1% is a very small number. Then referring to the family, I think more children of servicemen then join the military because I think why, because they're more aware of the opportunities of military service. I never asked my kids to serve, but because they were exposed to it each and every day and we moved all over the nation, I think they became very comfortable with the friendships that they've had, are still true to this day.

My daughter's best friend, they were six year olds and we lived right next to each other and now they're in their 30s and best friends to this very day. That pride of service. Yes, do we want more to serve? Absolutely. That's why I think the awareness and sharing-- first of all, thanks for your service, sir, sharing your military service story to others will also bring that awareness and hopefully increase that propensity or the knowledge of servicing this [unintelligible 00:29:57].

Brian Lehrer: We just have 30 seconds left, but on the economic draft.

Major General Johnny Davis: Economic draft. No.

Brian Lehrer: Is there one that causes an overrepresentation of poor people of color putting their lives at risk for their country?

Major General Johnny Davis: No. Sir, I'm not seeing that. What I see is armed forces, especially army that looks more like the representative of the nation. That's what I see.

Brian Lehrer: Major General Johnny K. Davis, Commanding General of the US Army recruiting command based at Fort Knox, Kentucky. Thank you so much for coming on today and talking about the recruiting shortage that you're dealing with right now. Thank you very much.

Major General Johnny Davis: Thank you, sir.

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