Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. In the previous decade, LGBTQ individuals gained significant rights in the United States as the Supreme Court ruled that states could not ban same-sex marriage in 2015. You all know that. During this time LGBTQ visibility rose both in the US and abroad.

The United States saw its first openly gay politician as Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin was elected to the Senate in 2012, or at least first openly gay member of the Senate. The Olympic Games held in Rio de Janeiro in the summer of 2016 included a record number of out LGBTQ athletes.

Yet despite this increase in visibility and acceptance, or maybe because of it, backlash against the LGBTQ community globally has intensified at the same time, pushing individuals on the gender or sexuality spectrum to hide, suppress, or flee to escape persecution. According to a Human Rights Watch analysis 67 countries still outlaw homosexuality, with roughly seven making same-sex conduct punishable by death.

Most recently, maybe you saw this, in the news this week, Uganda's parliament overwhelmingly passed a bill that criminalizes not just same-sex conduct, but also merely existing as a gay or lesbian person. If codified into law, homosexuals in Uganda could face life in prison, literally, for simply existing.

We're going to talk about this now, and open the phones with a deeper exploration of this anti-LGBTQ context for the bill in Uganda, with Neela Ghoshal, senior director of law and policy at the group Outright International, and Richard Lusimbo, LGBTQ+ and human rights activist, national coordinator for Uganda Key Population Consortium. Neela and Richard, welcome to WNYC. Thank you for coming on.

Richard Lusimbo: Thank you so much, Brian, and thanks for having us.

Neela Ghoshal: Thank you for having us.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, here's where you can come in. This news had us thinking about how perilous it can be to travel while being gay or trans in particular these days. We're also thinking of those who may have left your home country that has laws that persecute you on the basis of your gender identity or your sexual orientation, and you want to call in and tell a story of your country of origin. Not to say everything's perfect here, but what about your country of origin if it was Uganda or anywhere else? 212-433-WNYC.

If you're a member of the LGBTQ community, how much do you consider a country's laws or general attitudes toward your community before you even travel there? If you're from another country, what are attitudes toward the LGBTQ community and toward individuals like back at home? Is it more hostile than in the United States, or is it more hostile here? 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692.

Neela, can you start us off by explaining what's in this anti-LGBTQ bill in Uganda, and what path it took to becoming a codified law?

Neela Ghoshal: Yes, thank you so much, Brian. I want to offer one quick correction, which is that the bill seems to have been modified in parliament to remove the clause that simply being an LGBTQ person is cause for imprisonment. That was in an earlier draft of the bill and seems to have been removed. However-

Brian Lehrer: Good for that at least.

Neela Ghoshal: -that does not in any great measure detract from the odiousness of this law. The UN human rights chief describes this law as probably the worst anti-LGBTQ law in the world. Outright International, where I work, which has worked on international LGBTQ human rights for 30 years, would concur with that. This law includes the death penalty for consensual same-sex conduct if someone is a serial offender. If you're convicted more than once of having sex with your partner, you are subject to the death penalty. It also reinforces the [unintelligible 00:04:41].

Brian Lehrer: I know I read that in an article, but you saying it out loud, I can't even believe what I'm hearing.

Neela Ghoshal: It is absolutely astonishing at a time when the rest of the world is moving in the direction of decriminalization of same-sex conduct. The idea that 300-something Ugandan legislators sat together in a room and agreed that people should be put to death for having consensual sex with their partner is appalling and astonishing.

It goes far beyond that. This bill would criminalize anyone who engages in the so-called promotion of homosexuality with a prison sentence of up to 20 years and that includes facilitating activities that encourage the normalization of homosexuality. Now, I did a little bit of research into who is in Uganda--

Brian Lehrer: Wait, wait. We have that here, don't we, with Ron DeSantis and others trying to characterize drag story hours and things like that as recruiting and trying to get them banned.

Neela Ghoshal: We certainly do. We have a lot of problems here in the United States, and I don't want to minimize them, but we're talking about prison sentences of 20 years for anyone who conducts an activity or operates an organization that encourages the normalization of homosexuality.

Now, let's just stop for a second and think about what that means. Any organization or company in Uganda that has a policy on its books saying that non-discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity should be the norm is now subject to a 20-year prison sentence. We are talking about the United Nations--

Brian Lehrer: That would be you, right? That would be you if you stepped foot in--

Neela Ghoshal: That would certainly be us at Outright International, but it doesn't stop with us. That would be the UN. That would be USAID and other development agencies. That would be the World Bank, major humanitarian organizations, as well as private sector companies. I think the Ugandan government probably hasn't thought this through, but companies operating in Uganda like Citibank, or Marriott, or Coca Cola, have non-discrimination policies on the books, and they are now liable to 20 years in prison for operating an organization that normalizes homosexuality.

One more really horrific element, and I know that Richard probably has more to add to this, but one more really horrific element is the duty to report. If somebody knows that another person is gay, or bi, or involved in same-sex conduct, they are required to report them. If not, they face a prison sentence under the law, which means that mothers are required to report their children, doctors are required to report their patients, therapists and teachers need to report their clients and their pupils. Uganda has essentially criminalized large swaths of the population, not just LGBTQ people.

Brian Lehrer: Richard Lusimbo, again, to reset you. You are national coordinator for Uganda Key Population Consortium. Is that the name of the group?

Richard Lusimbo: Yes, please.

Brian Lehrer: Could you just describe your connection to Uganda for our listeners for context?

Richard Lusimbo: Thank you so much, Brian, and thanks Neela. Really nice to hear you speak on the issues happening in Uganda. I'm the national coordinator for Uganda Key Population Consortium, and I'm based here in Kampala, in Uganda. My organization focuses on advocacy, but also on public health and access to health for the LGBTQ community and other sexual minority groups in the country. We are a national network that brings together sexual minorities in the country, and other vulnerable groups.

Brian Lehrer: You're in Uganda right now. Is that correct?

Richard Lusimbo: Yes, please.

Brian Lehrer: According to what Neela was just describing, you would be subject to arrest even for what you just said.

Richard Lusimbo: Absolutely. That's the most ridiculous thing that I have ever heard in a law, ever.

Brian Lehrer: Are they coming to get you, or can you actually function?

Richard Lusimbo: The dynamics will be really very difficult and different if the president assigns to this deal, which is now an act of parliament. Also, I think, as a community, we'll try as much as possible to fight back using all the legal means given to us by the constitution that this doesn't become law. If it's to remain as law, it will be really very, very terrible and tough for communities and organizations like mine to operate.

Brian Lehrer: To be clear, this was passed by the Ugandan parliament, but not yet signed by the president, so it still hangs in the balance whether this will be law.

Richard Lusimbo: Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: How has the LGBTQ community in Uganda responded to the parliament passing this?

Richard Lusimbo: It's been by shock and dismay, but also a lot of fear has gutted the community because we have already seen an increase in cases of human rights violations that are targeting the LGBT community, people being thrown out of homes, people being attacked, and we have also seen a high increase in number of LGBTQ leaders who have been summoned by the police. It's a feeling of fear and uncertainty that now gets to beseech the LGBT community in Uganda right now.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here's Ed in Chelsea. Ed, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Ed: Yes, I have a question for both of you guys. How much responsibility does the evangelist Christian Church missionaries have for pushing this agenda in Uganda?

Brian Lehrer: Richard, would you take that first? Were you able to hear the question?

Richard Lusimbo: Absolutely. Thank you so much for your question. I really like the fact that I get to hear this. The American Evangelical extremists have really been the leaders in pushing for this and LGBT laws. I also must say that in 2012, we were able to actually-- I used to work at sexual minorities Uganda, LGBT network. Then we are able to sue Scott Lively who is from Springfield, Massachusetts.

He was responsible for the very first anti-LGBT law that was tabled in Uganda, nullified in 2014.

Quickly also to speak about the role of what they've done is they have been systematically coming and engaging our leaders and sewing seeds of hatred, but also redefining who an LGBT person is, and shaping the whole story of saying LGBT people aren't family, they're after children, and they are here to end the world. This has really created a lot of these anti-LGBT sentiments, which actually have been well-funded and supported by the same groups. They really have had a very big role in Uganda.

We have seen this going into other African countries. They're not only stopping in Uganda, but we're seeing the same in Ghana. We are seeing the same in Kenya now, in Burundi, and actually, they support the drafting of all these draconian laws and texts. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: According to The Washington Post, US-based Christian evangelical groups have invested millions of dollars in building orphanages and schools and spreading their ideology throughout Uganda with what The Post calls more than 20 American religious organizations advocating against LGBTQ rights, safe abortion, access to contraceptives, and comprehensive sex education, and that they had spent at least 54 million furthering their agendas in Africa since 2007. Nila, do you want to weigh in on that?

Neela Ghoshal: Yes, I can just add to that. What Richard says is absolutely correct in terms of the deaths of this influence and the fact that it dates back more than a decade at this point.

I would add that another connection has been through the National Prayer Breakfast in the United States where the family, which up until this year, ran the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, developed really deep tithe and helped launch a National Prayer Breakfast in Uganda, which is a basically a deeply homophobic gathering that takes place in Uganda every year. Those ties are deep and enduring.

As Richard says, there is legislation like this popping up in other African countries. We can see that in some cases, some of the languages of these different pieces of legislation is very much the same. For instance, in Ghana right now, there's currently a pending anti-homosexuality bill as well, that includes the provision that was just dropped from Uganda's bill on "holding out as a lesbian, gay, queer, or transgender person."

There's a number of other provisions in which there seems to be kind of copy-and-paste articles in these laws. That does raise a lot of questions about where the influence is on these bills. I think some of it is quite clear, and some of it needs to continue to be tracked given the impact that it is having on queer Africans' lives.

Brian Lehrer: There's another irony that I see here, Richard. The Ugandan president, Museveni, likened homosexuality to a form of social imperialism. Yet what you both were just describing with respect to the UB-based Christian Evangelical groups sounds a lot like neocolonialism. Don't people in Africa react to Americans coming over and trying to spread their religious politics as a form of neocolonialism?

Richard Lusimbo: You know, Brian, this has been a well-calculated move, and this reminds us the very first time Africa and other parts of the world were colonized. These evangelicals have not only come in terms of spreading Christianity, but they come in form of aid. They come to build schools like you are saying. They come to build hospitals. What they do with this is that they get buy-in from communities that they start to believe them and trusting them.

It's through this trust that they have established with communities that they start to dictate their imperialism and also these policies. By the time you realize you've actually been growing within this missionary school, and all you have been told is that LGBT people are terrible, and all that you know is what they have told you. I think this is why we find ourselves on the fence because this has been a very systematic way of actually brainwashing and changing minds over different people across Africa, and especially in Uganda where they've made it ground zero for every anti-gender, and anti-SRHR, and anti-LGBT sentiments to grow.

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC FM HD NAM, New York, WNJT FM 88.1, Trenton, WNJP 88.5, Sussex, WNJY 89.3, Netcong, and WNJO 90.3, Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio and live streaming@wnyc.org at a couple of minutes before 11 o'clock. Few more minutes on what just happened in Uganda this week, parliament passing a law that criminalizes consensual homosexual acts to the point of imprisonment, even life imprisonment for some who would be considered repeat offenders at just having consensual sex with their lovers.

They are waiting to see if the president of Uganda signs the bill, and we're talking about this and in global context with Neela Ghoshal, senior Director of Law and policy at the group outright international, and Richard Lusimbo, LGBTQ+ human rights activist national coordinator in Uganda. He's in Uganda now for the group called Uganda Key Population Consortium.

Let's take another phone call. Excuse me, here's McKenna in the Hudson Valley. You're on WNYC. Hello.

McKenna: Good morning, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. First I just want to send love to my African queer and trans siblings. You matter to us. I just wanted to say that to start.

I'm a middle-aged white trans man, so I don't have to handle the additional burden of race and racism, but I do want to say that any time I'm thinking about traveling out of the US, I always research where I want to go to see how trans-friendly it is, what hassles, if any, I might have to face getting into the country as soon as I get off the plane?

That includes, as a trans man, I take medication, testosterone injections once a week. I always have to figure if I'm traveling with that medication, which in many countries, including the US, is considered a controlled substance. I travel with a vial of testosterone and a needle and syringe. I also have to travel with a doctor's letter so that if I am stopped and questioned about that medication, I have some evidence of why it's needed. That's one.

I also have to say this. Right now even leading the United States is a burden for many trans people because at the TSA checkpoints, if you don't have all your documentation in order, which I do, and you don't look how some TSA agents think you should look, you're often stopped searched again, needing to be questioned multiple times about who you are and about your travel documents, et cetera.

Also, now coming back into the US is becoming very, very difficult because of all the anti-trans legislation. There's many states now in this country as a trans white man, I don't feel comfortable going to.

I just hope anyone listening to this who is a true ally of queer and trans people in the US and around the world, wake up. Wake up. There is a concerted effort to really dehumanize us and to really eradicate queer and trans people around the world. It's serious. We have to think about where we can go, where we're going to be safe as soon as we leave our houses. I hope people really get that.

Brian Lehrer: McKenna, thank you for putting such a clear and detailed individual face on this. I hope you call us again.

McKenna: Yes, but Brian, I want to say it's not just individual. All my queer and trans siblings around the world face this, so it's not one person's story.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, no. I know. I know. I know.

McKenna: We all face this.

Brian Lehrer: I know. I know, but it gets very powerful. It gets brought home to a lot of people by hearing an individual like yourself tell your individual story. I certainly agree, 100--

McKenna: One last thing.

Brian Lehrer: Sure.

McKenna: Queer and trans kids, queer and trans kids, keep going. Keep going. I made it to middle age. Keep going. There is a life. There are people that love you and care about you, so keep going.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, McKenna. Thank you very, very much. One more call in this segment, Patrick and Elizabeth, a US citizen of Ugandan descent. He says. Hi, Patrick. You're on WNYC.

Patrick: Yes. Hi Brian. Thanks for letting me on. Long-time listener, first-time caller. Museveni is basically using this as a political tool to stay in power. His sustained power has been maintained by support from countries like the US because of his contribution to Somalia and South Sudan. They're the one arming him. I'm not trying to denigrate the fact that the law is bad. Homosexuality is not new in Uganda, but he's using such crises just to stay in power, and because of the earning and funding that he gets from this country. That's my opinion. Thank you very much.

Brian Lehrer: Why, Patrick, if he's using it to stay in power, would something so hateful even be popular among the people to help him stay in power?

Patrick: Yes, because, like I said, homosexuality is not new in Uganda, but he's using it as a divisive tool to make sure that he's on the-- The truth is the practice is not popular culturally, but, in the past, government has not tried to deal with such issues because these are individual issues. You cannot go house to house enforcing such a law. Things like the disciplinarity, it's on the books for things like murder, and I might be slightly wrong on this, but to my knowledge, I don't think anybody, even murderers who have been convicted of the disciplinarity have actually been killed.

Brian Lehrer: I understand. Patrick--

Patrick: They're using it as a threat to--

Brian Lehrer: Yes. He's got a threat that he can't carry out and he uses it to his political advantage. Richard Lusimbo, do you want to comment on that, and then we're out of time?

Richard Lusimbo: Thank you so much Brian, and thank you Patrick for your views. I also want to say that I just want to disagree with Patrick when he says that even if they use a death penalty, they'll not use it. I think one thing we shouldn't forget is having this law and just having it, the community will be attacked because society has been weaponized against the LGBTQ community. I think what is best for the Uganda LGBTQ community is actually having no law that discriminates or criminalizes them. I think that's when we can have a positive conversation and protection for my community.

Brian Lehrer: Richard Lusimbo is the national coordinator for the group Uganda Key Population Consortium. Neela Ghoshal, a senior director of law and policy at Outright International. Thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation, troubling as it is, and letting a lot more people know what's going on and about your work. Thank you.

Neela Ghoshal: Thank you, Brian.

Richard Lusimbo: Thank you so much.

Neela Ghoshal: Richard, please stay strong. We're with you.

 

 

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.