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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. How would you characterize your relationship with alcohol during the pandemic? How much do you drink? Or how much do you think about not drinking? If these questions give you pause, then you might be one of the millions of Americans with a complicated relationship with alcohol. According to the Journal of the American Medical Association, one in eight Americans fit the definition of having alcohol use disorder, and millions more say they drink too much or drink more than they would like, not necessarily fitting the definition of alcohol abuse disorder, but living in a murky gray area where problem drinking merges with "normal drinking."

It's safe to say that gray area has expanded in the past few years, as nearly one in four adults reported drinking more to manage pandemic stress. My next guest thinks about this a lot. She wants to help people navigate through the grayness, through the drinking or thinking about not drinking. Ana Marie Cox is a writer, a podcaster, a political commentator, a commentator on science fiction and other cool stuff. Her podcast is called "Space the Nation." Get it? She's also someone with an addiction, who's been sober for 10 years. Now she started a new advice column for a New York Magazine called Sober Questioning. Ana Marie Cox, always great to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Ana Marie Cox: Thank you, Brian. It's really good to be here.

Brian Lehrer: We've had you on the show many times, but mostly for political analysis and tips for having hard conversations for people you don't agree with, but I don't think we've ever talked to you about your sobriety in all your appearances. Why did you start an advice column called Sober Questioning?

Ana Marie Cox: Well. It's something that I've pretty much never been shy to talk about, but it wasn't part of my professional life at all. I've written about it here and there, but during the pandemic, I had a lot of people come to me with questions about sobriety. I have a friend who I'm very proud to say, he's still sober today, having come to me probably a few months after the pandemic started, and that's her, not me, but it makes me super happy. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: Although you're writing in your opening column, "Sometimes I think my extraordinary circumstances make me a bad example for anyone else who wants to stay sober." How so?

Ana Marie Cox: I am a low bottom drunk, as they say, not on the outside so much. By the time I hit bottom, my marriage was somewhat intact. My career was okay. News were starting to be affected, but my mental health was really suffering. I started to have a pattern where every time I got really drunk, I would want to die. You think about that long enough, and you start thinking, maybe I'll try it. So I attempted to end my life. Apparently, it was a good try and I wound up in a hospital. I had probably my first real surrender. I woke up, and I realized that what I tried didn't work. I was a little upset about that because I felt like, "Wow, I've tried everything." You know what I hadn't tried?

Brian Lehrer: What?

Ana Marie Cox: I hadn't tried not drinking. [laughs] I was, as they say, sometimes beaten into a state of reasonableness, and lying there in that hospital bed. It sounds cliche, but it is true. I decided, "Okay, fine. I'll do what people suggest. I will try this thing, and I'll see what happens."

Brian Lehrer: That was 10 years ago.

Ana Marie Cox: That was almost 11 years ago. My sobriety date is March 23rd. It's both flown by and dragged. I kind of can't believe it. I went to treatment and when people would come through the treatment center and talk about being sober for that long, I used to think, "Well, you're clearly just not an alcoholic." There's no way you could be sober for that long and be like me. I now know it's possible. I bow drank and used benzos. That's dangerous by the way.

Brian Lehrer: That's a combination, especially dangerous.

Ana Marie Cox: Yes, and here I am. I am so grateful to be alive. I never forget that. I never ever forget that.

Brian Lehrer: Before we open up the phones, you write, "A question I don't get that often but I love to answer when it does come up. Why do you keep not drinking?"

Ana Marie Cox: I answered this question last night. Someone asked me one of the letters that I got, and I got to answer. I can feel joy now and deep down I used to not like myself very much. It's just as simple as that. I like myself today. I have a connection to the world. I would say a higher power, kind of controversial. At the end of the day, if I don't drink, I get to celebrate. I was part of something miraculous if I didn't drink today. Everyone probably has something miraculous happen in their day like they were supposed to get hit by a truck and didn't, or their kid had a close call or something. I know something really awesome happened in my life. I don't want to give that up.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, do you have a question about your pandemic year drinking, or that of someone and care about for my guest Ana Marie Cox? 212-433-WNYC. Has the pandemic changed your relationship with drinking? Did you start drinking more in March of 2020? Have you continued to drink more? Or maybe someone else in your life has started to worry you with their drinking? Are you wondering whether you should say something, or what it might be? 212-433-9692. Or maybe the pandemic was a good time to work on your sobriety, and now that restrictions have eased, you're struggling with being confronted by triggering social situations you've been out for a while?

You can call about that too. Or how is your sobriety going? Are you new to it? Decades-old? What do you think about in your sober state today, different from before you just heard Ana Marie say, she can feel happiness, she likes herself more than before? What advice would you give to the newly sober curious or ask for advice? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. Ana Marie Cox who's just started this New York Magazine column called Sober Questioning. Do you want to talk about this gray area that I was alluding to in the introduction to the segment? Like, does it matter where the line is between alcohol abuse syndrome and something less than that? Can you talk about the gray area?

Ana Marie Cox: Sure. I think it's different for every person. It's as simple as that. I had people ask me, "Do I qualify to call myself an alcoholic or a recovery program if I don't drink that much, but I just don't like the way that I drink?" I would say, "Sure." Recovery is available to anyone that wants it. One of the things that I love about being sober, and I should have said this earlier, is that I actually have a program of recovery that I keep in touch with on a daily basis that helps me become a better person and keeps me attached to the world and keeps my relationships close. That's me. If you want to cut down and you can cut down, I think you can get glimpses of that clarity, and your relationships will improve. Personally, I can't just cut down. [chuckles] What is it?

Brian Lehrer: It's the harm reduction model, right? We talk about this so much with opioids and other things and whether there should be needle exchanges and injection sites. The harm reduction model says, it can't be all or nothing because so many people aren't going to make it to nothing, but you're saying for some people, it's got to be nothing.

Ana Marie Cox: For some people, it's really simple. If you can do moderation, then go for it. I am happy for you. I am jealous of you. [chuckles] Sometimes it's simpler to just cut it out for a while and see what that does for you. Then there are some people who can cut it out almost completely. I know people who have a glass of wine every couple of months and that's it. Awesome, you know? I still feel like it's worth seeing what one's life is like without chemical augmentation, let's say. I hope that for everybody. I would hope everyone to get a chance to go camping, to experience nature up close and personal. Being sober for a while is experiencing yourself up close and personal.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a call, and this is coming from Paul on Long Island who says he's a liquor retailer and he has some observations. Paul, you're on WNYC with Ana Marie Cox. Thanks for calling in.

Paul: Oh, hi. How are you guys? Yes, and I am an alcoholic but it's irrelevant with this conversation but I have 27 years of recovery. The retail situation, thanks. [laughs] The retail thing was-- It was like the first day of the COVID and the first week or two the purchases were mind-boggling enough that I wrote memos to my trade organization on how they really had to do change their buying habits. The companies were running out of the products. A lot had to do with them being home.

They were home so they could drink in front of the computer while they're working I suppose, but to see them change, the whole aspect changed because not only was their hair turning-- the ladies, their hair was turning gray, plus they were drinking a lot. The men were putting on weight plus they were drinking a lot. It was something to behold. It's not my position to get in there and say, ''Guys you're drinking too much,'' but it was really a big observation.

Brian Lehrer: Are you still in the-

Paul: The industry changed.

Brian: Are you still in the business?

Paul: No, actually I'm out of the business October. October I got out of the business

Brian Lehrer: That's the relatively recent. In that year and a half between when the pandemic started and when you got out, did it get worse and worse and worse or did it start to ease up after a while as people adjusted to the new reality?

Paul: As people started to go back to work, that was part of it. Somewhere in the middle people came to their senses. The first time ever people would say I'm drinking too much. They didn't say I'm done but they would say I'm drinking too much, they noticed that. When they started going back to work, that was one thing. Also, some of that money like early on people were getting the money and I don't know if that increased their drinking as much as they were drinking better.

Brian: Paul, thank you. Thank you for your story.

Paul: You're welcome.

Brian: Ana Marie, anything on that on that? I also was wondering how and I guess I could have asked them but I was wondering how unusual is it for a recovering alcoholic to own a liquor store?

Ana Marie Cox: It's surprisingly common to find alcoholics in the places you'd think that it would be a danger zone. Bartenders, waiters, service people, restaurant owners, chefs. I think that's because and I would say journalism. [laughs] I think that's because, I'm going to try to speak just for myself, but I definitely was attracted to a career that let me do my own thing. Drinking is pretty common in journalism. It's part of the job, and then I had to get sober. I wonder if maybe for people-- I can't speak to people who go into those jobs after they get sober, but I think it would be pretty common to find those people in jobs before they get sober, and then that's what they do, so why not keep doing it?

Brian Lehrer: Anne in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Anne.

Anne: Hey, Brian. How are you doing?

Brian Lehrer: Good. Thank you, and you?

Anne: Good thanks. Ana Marie, I just wanted to say congratulations on 10 years. That's amazing. I've been sober for 3 years and my husband and I both used to drink heavily together. I was able to quit mostly because he got a job where he was traveling all the time. He was gone, and it was easier for me to be able to not get into the habit of having a drink with him every night. New Year's Eve 3 years ago I just stopped. When the pandemic hit, of course, he was home all the time. Not only were we together again 24/7, but it also increased anxiety and stress levels and he increased his drinking.

Luckily, it's really not been a problem for me as far as my drinking's been concerned because the benefits have really overridden the benefits of not drinking have really overridden everything else. My question is he's traveling right now and he will be back next week. I want to be able to help him because I know that he also recognizes his problems with alcohol. He's having a lot of problems with sleeping. He's just very tense and anxious and I want to help him but I don't want to be a nag. I've been trying to figure out how to do I balance that line between enabling and helping him out.

Brian Lehrer: I should say, Ana Marie, maybe this won't surprise you and probably, Anne, you too. Half the calls on our board are from people who don't know how to help their friend or their spouse or someone close to them.

Ana Marie Cox: I have bad news which is it's really almost impossible to get someone to stop using. They have to want to do it themselves. In my experience and this has been both successful and unsuccessful for me. I've been in relationships with alcoholics. My mom was a was an alcoholic. The best way to help them is to live a good life yourself, to be the example. Sometimes people in the 12 step programs have a saying which is we are a program of attraction and not promotion, and that seems to be the thing when I'm able to help someone out, it's because they come with the desire to stop.

You can't place that desire in someone, but you can be happy yourself. You can choose not to participate when he does. I would say there are support groups for people who have loved ones with drinking problems, and that is a really good way to handle this. Just to be not alone in it.

Anne: Sure.

Ana Marie Cox: You can find them online. It's easy as Googling and those places I think if they're good, if you find a good support group, are going to be about being okay yourself. Not letting that person's drinking or using put you in a place where you're hurting because you're not going to be able to help if you're hurting. This is a own oxygen mask first situation really.

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: The oxygen mask. Anne, I hope that was helpful. Thank you very, very much. Here's one from Twitter. A question for Ana Marie. Was talk therapy a part of your journey, and if so, what role did it play and what was the impact?

Ana Marie Cox: [laughs] I love my various therapists through the years. They have been incredibly important to me in gathering insights on why I do certain things. Haven't really been able to help me stop doing those things. I think it's important to get that insight. All a therapist can do is encourage and help you to understand your own situation. I felt pretty confident. I understood why I drank. That wasn't a mystery to me. [laughs]

I come from an alcoholic family. I have a mental health diagnosis in addition to being an addict alcoholic. I have social anxiety, believe it or not, and so I understood why I drank. I just couldn't stop and my therapist couldn't help me stop. That insight is important. I would say that's a good pillar to have. I'm going to mix my metaphors here. You can't put a a pillar in a toolbox. I'll just say it's a good thing to have in your recovery toolbox, but as with building anything, you can't use just one tool.

Brian Lehrer: Holly in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Holly.

Holly: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. My issue is I've always drank but never every day and I now drink every day. I don't blackout, but I'm just drinking to numb myself, I think. I'm depressed, I'm worried. I think it started a little bit before the pandemic, but the pandemic has definitely made it worse. I quit January of 2021, I did a three-week cleanse, I didn't drink and I still felt like crap and I couldn't sleep. Until then, I went back to drinking again.

What I wanted to do is I want to become a regular weekend drinker like I once was in life and enjoy a nice cocktail and enjoy a great beer without it being every night at dinner, I have a cocktail, and then I have two more. I don't know how to break that habit now. Does that make any sense? I don't know if I'm an alcoholic or if I'm just using it as a coping mechanism. I can't tell.

Brian Lehrer: This is the archetypal grey area story, right, Ana Marie?

Ana Marie Cox: Yes. I almost think it's unfortunate. The word alcoholic can be problematic because it does, I think, keep people from being able to assess their own relationship in a relative way. We all have our internal definitions of what an alcoholic is. For you, you probably picturing something specific about what an alcoholic is, and no one wants to be one, although I'm grateful to be one but we can talk about that later.

In a way, actually, no, this is appropriate. I'm grateful to be an alcoholic because I know I am a heck of an alcoholic. I don't have the grey area. The good news for you is you get to define, sometimes you get to define who you are, and you get to define your bottom, and what your boundaries are. Now, my suggestion comes, I have to always speak from my own experience. For me, in addition to self-medicating, I just love to drink. I love the taste, I love being with people. I collected cocktail stuff, and I didn't drink as much as my mom.

Holly: That's the thing as I used to date a heavy drinker, and I don't drink during the day, I don't like day-drinking at all. I don't want to drink at work. At night, once I have that first one, it's like, I have to have two more, sometimes three, and I know that that's not right.

Ana Marie Cox: I do recommend given a shot to just going without for a while. You said you didn't like yourself when you went without? That was the problem, you weren't unhappy when you tried sobriety?

Holly: I thought it was going to be this glorious everyone got their dry January, I feel like they leave that and then they go on to February. I did not have that at all. Maybe I didn't want to sit and live with my own thoughts. Maybe that's the only way I would do that.

Ana Marie Cox: I was going to say, [chuckles] I think it's really hard for those of us that have trouble stopping to feel that immediate relief when we do stuff. I just recommend finding some other people, also talk therapy. Just one other friend that maybe is going through the same thing. Again, Google, very helpful. There are all kinds of options out there for finding support. I cannot recommend a specific program, but I can tell you that what we say in recovery is no one does it alone. Everyone's story is different, but no one does it alone. I think that that might be something for you to try.

Brian: Holly, I hope that's helpful.

Holly: It was very helpful. Thank you so much for doing this program and thanks for everything.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much.

Ana Marie Cox: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: I guess we're going to leave it there with Ana Marie Cox, writer, host of the Science Fiction Podcast, Space the Nation, and author of the Cut's new advice column, The Cut from New York Magazine, The Cut's new advice column about sobriety called Sober Questioning. We could have gone on and on and on. Unfortunately, with more callers and tweeters who have these experiences that we've been hearing. Anything you want to say in wrapping up or summing up or just promoting your column?

Ana Marie Cox: Sure. I enjoyed writing my first column because it was about what to say or do when you're having trouble in a social situation or when it seems like people want you to drink. The thing I recommended saying is, "Maybe later. Maybe I'll have a drink later." The reason I love that response is because that's true for all drinking. You do it one drink at a time. Anyone out there who's struggling, don't think of it as, "Oh, I can never drink again." Just think about turning down one drink at a time. You think you want to drink, tell yourself maybe later. In an hour, try to say maybe later again. It doesn't have to be forever. It just has to be one. You may have heard before, one day at a time, but I like even better, one drink at a time. That's all it has to be.

Brian Lehrer: One conversation at a time with Ana Marie Cox. Ana Marie, thank you so much. Really helpful.

Ana Marie Cox: Thank you.

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