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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We begin today with New York politics and New Jersey politics, both making big news on the New York side. It looks like another battle is underway to redraw the Congressional district maps that helped lead to the Republican sweep of Long Island and some big wins in the Hudson Valley in 2022. Control of Congress is at stake. We'll talk about that second this morning with the news still breaking from overnight, and we're digesting it right now.

New Jersey, too, has something unusual going on. Senator Bob Menendez is scandalized, as many of you know. The governor's wife, Tammy Murphy is running for his seat, and many local New Jersey Democratic leaders have endorsed her. So far, Tammy Murphy appears to be losing the rank and file to a lesser-known Democrat, Congressman Andy Kim. Here's Kim speaking the other day.

Congressman Andy Kim: I get it. I'm going up against some very powerful connected competitors in this race right now, but I'm also standing before you right now as a son of immigrants, a public school kid that's currently 23 points up in the polls right now.

Brian Lehrer: 23 points up, and at least one poll right now. We'll talk about that, and we'll hear a clip of Tammy Murphy, too, as we welcome Nancy Solomon, who covers New Jersey for WNYC, and Gothamist and hosts the Ask Governor Murphy call-in show every month. Hey, Nancy, welcome back to the show.

Nancy Solomon: Thanks, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Remind us of the Menendez situation, which is why this is going on in the first place.

Nancy Solomon: Yes. In October, he was indicted by prosecutors in the Southern district, that's New York City's federal prosecutors, with charges having to do with gold bullion and cash that they found during a raid at his home. They were able to also confiscate phones and text messages between him and his wife. His wife Nadine has also been charged as well as two New Jersey businessmen.

Basically, the way prosecutors described the plot is that Menendez took cash, gold bullion, a Mercedes, other gifts in exchange for helping two different businessmen in a variety of different ways, but ultimately, the big shocker was that Menendez is charged with lobbying for the country of Egypt to help them in their bid to get more weapon sales from the United States. Of course, Bob Menendez was the chair of the Foreign Relations Committee in the Senate. What's alleged is that he traded lobbying for Egypt for money and other benefits.

Brian Lehrer: Man, you can't make this stuff up, right?

Nancy Solomon: No.

Brian Lehrer: Head of the Foreign Relations Committee in the Senate trading influence on behalf of Egypt for gold and other monetary benefits. My goodness. Of course, we should say he hasn't been convicted of anything, and he vociferously declares his innocence. That's to be determined officially, right?

Nancy Solomon: Yes. He has not said whether he's running for reelection, although something that I'm sure we will get into in today's discussion, once you lose the support of the party bosses county by county, which he has, it's very, very difficult to win a primary in New Jersey. He lost the support of his own Hudson County, a territory that he has really run for a very long time. That was also then one of the shocking ripple effects after this. It's not expected that he would run at this point. That, of course, brings us to what is really become the most exciting political race that I've seen in New Jersey pretty much since I moved here.

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Nancy Solomon: This is a really interesting race that brings up a lot of fascinating issues and problems with New Jersey's democracy.

Brian Lehrer: Let's just say that Nancy Solomon moved to New Jersey more than six months ago.

Nancy Solomon: [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: The primary is Tuesday, June 4th, are Tammy Murphy and Andy Kim, the only Democratic candidates, assuming Menendez does not run?

Nancy Solomon: No, there are two others. Patricia Campos-Medina, who is the director of a Latina women's organization, a political organization. She's been involved in labor union, academia and politics for a long time. Is fairly well known among some quarters of New Jersey politics and activism but does not have widespread name recognition or any kind of profile among regular voters. Then there's Larry Hamm, longtime Newark activist who is also running.

Brian Lehrer: We heard the clip of Kim where he says he's running against very connected people. Obviously, that's a reference to the other candidate being the wife of the governor. I don't want to write Tammy Murphy off here too easily. As just a nepotism candidate, there could be some sexism involved with doing that as well, because she is first Lady of the state. A lot of listeners are just getting to know even of the existence of Tammy Murphy as a politician when they're going to have the ability to vote on June 4th. Give us a little Tammy Murphy background. Does she have a background in politics?

Nancy Solomon: Only insofar is that she got involved in politics when her husband ran for governor. Tammy Murphy worked in business, worked at Goldman Sachs. She and her husband overlapped at Goldman Sachs, but that's not where they met. They met. They married. She stayed home with the kids. They moved to New Jersey, and he did very well at Goldman Sachs and became a multimillionaire. Then he raised money with Howard Dean for Barack Obama and ultimately was rewarded for that fundraising with an ambassadorship to Germany during the first Obama term. I did a bunch of reporting--

Brian Lehrer: Tammy Murphy was the US Ambassador to Germany?

Nancy Solomon: The wife to the US Ambassador to Germany. Sorry, I wasn't clear.

Brian Lehrer: No. Sorry.

Nancy Solomon: I was talking about Phil Murphy. She went with him to Germany with the kids, came back. Now, one of the interesting things that has really ticked off a lot of democratic party activists in New Jersey is that it turns out, and this was something first reported by The New York Times, it turns out that she was a registered Republican all during this period when they were raising their kids, and before he ran for governor, she donated to Republican candidates and voted in Republican primaries. That has upset some people.

Anyway. Then Phil Murphy runs for governor starting in 2015, '16 but for the 2017 election. Tammy Murphy says, "I have been involved in politics. I've run the two successful statewide campaigns." Because she was a force in her husband's campaigns raising money for them and working in the Democratic Party. What a lot of people say about her and what she says about herself is that during these past six years as the first lady, she's traveled all over the state.

She's built relationships with most importantly, the party bosses in each county, but also she's built relationships all over with all kinds of people. She shows up. She cuts ribbons. She gives speeches. She raises a ton of money, which the democratic leadership in the state was pretty excited about that factor in this race that they were going to pick a candidate who was going to raise a lot of money. Early criticism of her as an act of nepotism that really, she wouldn't be here if it weren't for her marriage and that there are other more worthy, more experienced people to run for this seat.

One of the counters to that early on was, "Listen, give her a chance because what you're going to see is that she's a great candidate, and she's going to go out there, and--" The governor said this on our show, Ask Governor Murphy, "She's terrific. She's going to go out there. She's going to win people over. She's a great speaker. She's a great money-raiser. She's a great organizer, and she works very hard." Both things can be true. She has an unfair advantage, but she'll also be a very good candidate.

What we've seen since she declared her candidacy in November are, we've seen a lot stumbles and that she has not really come through as the great candidate that many thought she would be.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we have about 10 more minutes with Nancy on this, and then we will flip the script and talk about New York's evolving congressional election drama, which as I said at the beginning, was continuing to evolve even overnight. Right now, New Jersey listeners, how are you deciding at this early date, the election isn't until June 4th, the primary, between Tammy Murphy and Andy Kim, or what do you want to know?

212-433-WNYC. New Jersey callers, especially if you're registered Democrat, 212-433-9692. Why is Andy Kim challenging Tammy Murphy if the local leaders, the county leaders across the state, got so quickly behind her, and she's generally got a good reputation among Democrats?

Nancy Solomon: Well, Andy Kim declared his candidacy before she did and before she got the wave of party boss endorsements that followed in the days after she announced. He came out very quickly calling for Menendez's resignation and then on the day of the indictment and then in a couple of days after that announced that he would run. He says he hadn't been thinking about running for the Senate but that he was just so outraged by the allegations and just the level of corruption in New Jersey that he felt it was important to run.

That has become a central part of this campaign. For me personally as a reporter who covers New Jersey politics, it's what's made this such a fascinating campaign, is that New Jersey corruption is really front and center. He declared early and then got cut off at the knees from the party bosses.

Brian Lehrer: We played the clip of Andy Kim earlier, which is from your most recent story on the air about the two of them. We'll play a clip of Tammy Murphy in a sec from your story. Listeners, if you want to read into this, Nancy also has an article on Gothamist, our local news website, if you want to read it, at gothamist.com. One of the things that you said in the piece this morning, I'm paraphrasing here, so tell me if this is wrong, but I got the impression you could look at Tammy Murphy as being a little more progressive than Andy Kim on at least some of the issues. Would you say?

Nancy Solomon: Yes, she's making that argument that she has come out in support of Medicare for all, and he has not. His answer to that is that he's pragmatic, and he's trying to work on something in Congress that they can actually get enough votes to win. Still that has been an effective line for her. The Murphys together, the two of them, have done a lot of progressive policies for the state of New Jersey.

There was a certain amount of exasperation by the Governor on one of our shows that he's being beat up over Tammy's candidacy when he feels that progressives should be very happy with him in everything he's done. Fair enough. They have done a lot, but this has just lit a fire. It's just really upsetting rank-and-file Democrats and the vast number of progressive activists across the state who are supporting Kim.

Brian Lehrer: There is something about climate, a pipeline in Newark where Tammy Murphy has gone out beyond Governor Murphy's position. She's opposing something that he favors. Am I getting that right?

Nancy Solomon: Yes, absolutely, right. To me, this is so emblematic of the whole situation at large. Which is that last week Tammy Murphy's campaign had an event where they appeared at the Ironbound Community Center in Newark. The Ironbound is home to many polluting infrastructure plants, and they've been fighting a new one, a gas-powered plant that would generate backup electricity for the sewer system. They don't want it. Governor Murphy is on the record supporting it, saying he generally wants to phase out fossil fuel infrastructure, but this one is needed. First lady Tammy Murphy shows up and pledges her opposition to the gas plant and doesn't mention her husband. The reporters--

Brian Lehrer: Let me jump in here. She has-

Nancy Solomon: Sure.

Brian Lehrer: -this exchange. This is part of her exchange with reporters at that event.

Nancy Solomon: Yes.

Reporter 1: Are you making these comments today on behalf of the Governors?

Tammy Murphy: I am making the comments today as Tammy Murphy. I am not speaking for the Governor, and I am--

Reporter 2: Have you talked to him about it?

Tammy Murphy: I'm not here to stand up and speak for the administration. That's not my role here today. If that's the essence of your questions, with all due respect, that's the end of the conversation.

Reporter 3: No, I have a different question.

Brian Lehrer: That's the end of the clip. That follow-up question, have you talked to the Governor about it, that's the one that really got her, right? Because she lives with the Governor. She presumably has dinner with the Governor most nights. Now, she's got a different position on this, so she could use it just to run for Senate, or she could use it to lobby him to change his position.

Nancy Solomon: Right. It's a fair question. If you're the first lady, and you're married to the most powerful person in the state of New Jersey, you've got to be able to answer this question. I'm sorry, but you just have to stand there and answer the question. She made it clear she wasn't going to go any further with it. Because it looked like she was going to walk away, other reporters jumped in and asked her more policy questions that she wanted to answer about the gas-powered plant.

Then I asked, "Governor Murphy supports this plant, are you going to lobby him?" She smiled at me. She said, "Thanks for the question, Nancy," and pivoted on her heels and walked away. The nepotism problem, she could potentially overcome it, but she's got to talk about it. She's got to answer the questions that she's got to be able to say, "Look, he and I disagree on this one, and I'm running in a race in which I can say what I feel." You just got to answer the question.

Brian Lehrer: Joachim Carney, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jack.

Joachim Carney: Yes. Hi. I'm calling about the Goldman Sachs connection to the last four governors. How many more governors are we going to have with a connection to Goldman Sachs? Where are the pension funds going in New Jersey? Goldman Sachs. I just think that we need a governor that's not affiliated with Goldman Sachs. Corzine, Chris Christie, now The Murphys. We're going to have four governors affiliated with Goldman Sachs, the political octopus in North Jersey?

Brian Lehrer: Jack, thank you very much. On a similar note, I think, Jean in Hightstown, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jean.

Jean: Hi, how are you? I'm a Democrat, and I [unintelligible 00:18:21] vote for Kim. I am fed up by what the previous speaker said. Goldman Sachs through the cracks running New Jersey has got to stop. Murphy, Corzine, now Tammy. They think because they have money, they can buy the office in New Jersey. That's got to stop.

Brian Lehrer: Jean, thank you. Nancy, I have half a board of callers saying the exact same thing. Maybe it's organized because they knew we were going to do this segment, or maybe this is a deep sentiment out there or both.

Nancy Solomon: Yes, maybe a little bit of both. I do think it's a deep sentiment. I'm not quite sure what the Chris Christie connection to Goldman Sachs is. That one, I'm not clear whether that's true, so just didn't want to let that stand.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, sure.

Nancy Solomon: I can't say for sure it isn't, but I'm searching my memory, and I'm not sure where that comes from. Listen, this is a complaint that has been there about Phil Murphy, and now, of course, it extends to Tammy Murphy. I think one of the real problems with our system is that we have these county chairs of the parties, and it's both parties, Democrat and Republican, who are able to endorse and then control placement on the actual ballot that voters see and check off their choices.

This is referred to as the county line. Obviously, money and politics is so important in so many ways and gives an advantage to people who have access to money, if not their own money. In New Jersey, it has a very particular role in that both Corzine and Phil Murphy made donations to the County Democratic Party committees, which is totally legal and legit, and then was able to get the endorsements and have an advantage on the primary ballot. Now, again, we know that Tammy Murphy is a prodigious fundraiser for the Democrats in New Jersey in these last six years since she's been the first lady, legitimate thing for her to be doing with her time and her money and her access to money.

Then you have all the party bosses coming out to endorse her. That's where it's a particular New Jersey flavor and problem. I'll say one more thing about the Goldman Sachs thing. John Corzine and Phil Murphy are very, very different creatures. They worked in two different sides of the Goldman Sachs business. John Corzine was a numbers guy, a quant guy who is part of a culture there where they think they're the smartest ones in the room, and they don't listen to anybody. They're trading and making deals.

Phil Murphy comes from the investment banking side, which is all about relationships. He is a relationships guy, and he's very good at it. He's warm. He's personable. He remembers details about you, all the things that good politicians do. Howard Dean, in fact, I interviewed him when Murphy was running, and he said, "You can't just tar him with the, 'Oh, he's a Goldman Sachs guy.'"

He was very successful in the investment banking business because he was good at building relationships, and he was very successful as an ambassador in Germany. I will say how much of this then translates to Tammy Murphy because, as I said, she's been making some mistakes in the campaign that suggest that maybe she doesn't have that politician's gift that her husband has.

Brian Lehrer: I'm not going to keep going on the calls because so many of them are saying the same thing. We have no Tammy Murphy supporters on the board just saying that's why we're not taking a call like that. Remember that a call in to a talk radio show is informal, unofficial and thoroughly unscientific in terms of representing what's out there. I think these are the people who feel strongly right now.

Half of them are saying, or most of them are saying, because these are Democrats, "I like Governor Murphy pretty well. I just don't think this is the way you put somebody else in office." Here, Nancy, to start to wrap it up is a question from a listener that came in in a text. This asks, "Has Tammy Murphy discussed her transition to being a Democrat?" Says "With Adams in New York City, people have a good view of a former Republican in a powerful office." Nancy, you still there?

Nancy Solomon: Yes. I'm sorry. I thought that was a lead-up to playing some tape. Sorry, I misunderstood.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, no, no, no, no.

Nancy Solomon: I understand.

Brian Lehrer: The implication is, Adams has been a Democrat for a while, but he still shows some Republican stripes. Would we be in for the same thing with Tammy Murphy?

Nancy Solomon: It's hard to say. She doesn't have a good answer to this question. Let me say, I'll tell you what her answer is. Maybe it's not fair for me to say it's not a good answer, but I'll tell you what I think. She says, "The Republican Party left me, and that's why I became a Democrat." She grew up in a Republican family in Virginia and says, "Hey, I grew up as a Republican, but the party left me."

The reason why I think that's not an adequate answer, and it's not having an impact on voters and their opposition to her is because she's got to address her support for George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan. Okay, fine, the Republican party has moved way far to the right and has lost a lot of New Jersey Republicans, but you need to explain what you were thinking. She has to explain how her personal thinking has changed. Not how the Republican party has changed, but how her experience and thinking and politics has changed and why. That would be a convincing argument. She hasn't made that argument.

Brian Lehrer: WNYC and Gothamist, Nancy Solomon, primary election, engaged primary day in New Jersey, Tuesday, June 4th. Obviously, we'll continue to cover this race. Nancy, thanks for coming on.

Nancy Solomon: Thanks for having me, Brian.

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