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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC good morning, everyone. This week we've been launching our pre-election series 30 issues in 30 days including our three nights of national call-in specials. For this morning show, we will re-air last night's special, which was called America Are We Ready For Truth And Reconciliation? Now this of course is about the racial reckoning that's taking place in our country. Yesterday was another intense day for that with the Breonna Taylor news. This first hour is about truth the second hour is about reconciliation, as in how do we reconcile our debts?

Kai Wright is my co-host It's America are we ready? On the Brian Lehrer show after the latest news.

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From WNYC in New York, it's America are we ready? Good evening, everyone. I'm Brian Lehrer from WNYC radio this hour, Are We Ready For Truth And Reconciliation?

Kai Wright: Reasons to consider the 2020 election to be one of the most consequential of our lifetimes. It's not just because we are choosing a president or a set of legislators. It truly has become a referendum on what kind of country we aspire to be. The center of that debate is our history of racism and racial inequality some have called this a moment of reckoning with that history. Tonight, once again, people are filling the streets to protest a police killing of a Black person. After today's announcement in Louisville, that no police officers will be charged for killing Breonna Taylor. It certainly feels like a moment of reckoning and if so, Donald Trump and Joe Biden have very different ideas about how to face it.

Brian: Right, President Trump says the teaching of history in school should have an agenda of fostering patriotism and he derives things like the New York Times 1619 project as, "Ideological poison that will," "Dissolve the Civic bonds," Of this country. Rather than as the writers intended a corrective to help foster a fuller conversation about history, including the legacy of enslavement which came to this country in 1619. Vice President Biden says systemic racism needs to be a central concern but he doesn't talk much about history and has himself at times been on what many racial justice advocates and even his running mate, Kamala Harris, would consider the wrong side of history.

Kai: Tonight, Brian and I are inviting all of you into an experiment on truth and reconciliation about systemic racism in the United States. If we're ever going to move forward, we will need some kind of shared truth that seems like a necessary step to get any real reconciliation, reconciling of debts. We're wondering, with so much water under the proverbial bridge, is it even possible to get to that kind of shared truth? We certainly hope so. This is a national call in so we want to invite you to say what truths need to be told about American history or about the state of our country today.

What do you think needs to be stated out loud for racial justice and reconciliation to really take place? Also, what truth do you need to tell about your own life or family history? What needs to be said out loud to try to eventually build some stronger civic bonds and maximize equality for our future? Call us at 844-745 talk that's 844-745-8255.

Brian: You don't have to tackle all of history just tell us something, a thing that you think needs to be recognized about the history, or present state of economic justice and injustice yes, that's one category, criminal justice, and injustice, housing or employment, or environmental or any other kind of justice or injustice that should be part of a shared truth. Before the country can really reckon successfully with racial justice and get much closer to it than we are. It can be a policy item or as Kai said, it could be something from your own experience or your own family's past.

What truth do you think is important to say out loud to help the nation eventually build stronger civic bonds for the sake of maximizing equality for our children 844-745 talk 844-745-8255 we invite your calls from anywhere in America 844-745 talk 844-745-8255

Kai: As we take your calls and try to think about all the truth-telling that we need to do, we're joined by Dr. Keisha Blain. She's a historian of 20th century America, focusing on Black history in particular at the University of Pittsburgh. She's the author of Set the world on fire Black nationalist women in the global struggle for freedom and co-editor with Ibram Kendi of an upcoming collection called 400 souls, a community history of African America and I should say, I am a contributor to that collection very proudly so. Dr. Blain, welcome.

Dr. Keisha Blain: Thank you so much for having me.

Kai: In addition to all those things I just said about you, you're also the president of the African American intellectual Historical Society which puts you in an interesting position to talk about the field broadly. Can we start there? It feels like history itself has become such a battleground in the political conversation right now, the president has openly attacked the 1619 projects in the New York Times, for instance, and there is, of course, a constant battle over public monuments. I think maybe what non-historians might not know is that this is all grown out of a movement within academia, it seems to me led by both Black historians, but also others, to tell a different kind of history a different kind of story about America's past. Where do you think that started in the field? Where would you put the beginning of that and where we're at now?

Keisha The first thing that I would say is that just having this conversation about history and how we tell our history, I'm mindful of the importance of Black historians, because it certainly matters who tells the story, and it's not a dismissal on any particular race, or people, or any group. It's to say that for such a long time, the way that Black history has been taught has been really framed as one that I think has really sidelined Black agency and even Black stories and Black ideas. I think, certainly what the African American Intellectual History Society is a part of is a larger movement, certainly not one that started at this moment.

I think this is something that we can trace back to individuals like Lerone Bennett I've been thinking about him and his remarkable work as a writer, as a historian we could talk about W. E. B. Du Bois much earlier. This is part of a long effort, a long history and an effort by Black historians, in particular, to resist these kinds of narratives that tend to exclude us and that's exactly why an organization like AAIHS exists in the first place is because we felt it was important to make sure that our voices were heard and that our histories were told accurately.

Kai: What about where we stand now with that? Like I said, there's been so much now this is something that's been happening in the academic circles but now certainly in our political culture it feels like history is such a battleground. How should we understand that?

Keisha: I would argue that it's always been a battleground and I think what is unique about this moment, is the fact that a lot of these debates are exactly as you say that these are taking place in a public setting, certainly within academia, these are debates we've been having for a while. Even recently, I've been thinking a bit about the Dunning school and for those who might not be familiar, this is a particular school of thought. The Dunning School of Reconstruction, it was a group of historians, a group of scholars who decried reconstruction, and their attempt was to support what can best be described as conservative elements against the Radical Republicans.

They tried to explain and justify the loss of Black political rights and so history has always been a battlefield there's always been groups of individuals who've who decide to emphasize one aspect of our history to advance a political purpose. Oftentimes, it is a racist purpose and so that's partly why I think the 1619 project has really angered so many people because it ultimately lifted up the history and said, Listen, this is an opportunity for us to actually focus on Black contributions to founding this nation. This isn't moment to shift away from focusing on the Mayflower of 1620 and actually focus on the White Lion.

Which a lot of people didn't even know about until the 1619 project. I think these debates have been happening within the halls of academia, but this is probably the first time certainly in recent memory that we've been having this debate publicly and you have the president weighing in and criticizing an entire project which I think is a remarkable project by the way.

Brian: Hi, Dr. Blain is Brian Lehrer. I know you already know Kai, so pleased to introduce myself. The first thing that I want to do is introduce you to our first caller who is Haley in Atlanta. Haley you're on America, Are We Ready? Hi there.

Haley: Hi guys.

Dr. Blain: Hi Haley.

Brian: What would you like to say? Do you want to speak a piece of historical truth that you need think needs to be part of the conversation? Or what would you like to add?

Haley: I went to Georgia Public School and I ended up going to do my undergrad in history. One of the first books I read as an undergrad was Howard Zinn, A Heople's History of the US and I just remember it being probably the most influential history books that I'd ever read in my life, the first chapter being about Columbus and he's a revered character because in public education, we have this system of American exceptionalism that's taught. To hear these truths being told that I'd never heard before, it changed my paradigm.

It changed everything I thought I knew and it led me onto this journey of pursuing a higher education history and so it's super important. I'm really glad that these things are being discussed now, because this should be part of the conversation in K through 12 around the nation.

Brian: Haley, thank you so much. In fact, Dr. Blain, I read that your school, The University of Pittsburgh has a required freshman course beginning this term called systemic Anti-Black racism and anti-racism a one-credit course. Based on the course title, I'm guessing Trump might call it divisive and ideological but how do you see that class and the movement for university courses like it around the country as part of the larger search for talking about historical truths that will help people toward a better future?

Dr. Blain: The first thing that I'll say is I'm so proud of that class because I'm one of the professors at the university who helped to put together the syllabus and we just came together over the summer and felt it was necessary to do this. I'm really happy that the administration agreed with us and has now made this class available because there are several things that I would say, I think what I would emphasize now, as someone who teaches Black history, students walk into my class and for the most part, they simply do not know much about the history.

As Haley was just explaining to us for a lot of students is not until they get to college, that they even learn various aspects of the history that they even learn about, the contributions that Black people have made to the United States. I'm not talking about Martin Luther King Jr., I'm not talking about Rosa Parks, I'm talking about a longer history of Black experiences, essentially that shaped the founding and certainly the making of the US.

I think what is critical about this particular class is we're getting students to understand that everything they saw this past spring, this past summer unfolding with the political and social movements, everything that's unfolding comes out of a larger history that Anti-Black racism has been present since the founding of the nation. We wanted them to contextualize certainly the police killings and just the white supremacist violence that we continue to deals with.

Brian: It certainly couldn't be more timely considering everything that's going on in our country, including today. This is America, Are we ready? We'll continue in a minute.

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This is America, Are we ready? I'm Brian Lehrer from WNYC radio with Kai Wright, host to the WNYC podcast, the United States of Anxiety. We're taking your calls this hour on this national call in about what truths do you think need to be said out loud, if we're ever going to have a successful racial reckoning in this country or a meaningful truth and reconciliation process, if you want to call it that we'll deal with reconciling our debts in a separate conversation at another time.

This hour, it's what truths do you think need to be said out loud, if we're ever going to have a successful racial reckoning in this country, or a meaningful truth and reconciliation process, 844-745-TALK, 844-745-8255. Still with us and helping to take your cause is Keisha Blain, University of Pittsburgh history, professor and President of the African American Intellectual History Society and co-editor with Ibram X. Kendi of the forthcoming Four Hundred Souls: A Community History of African America, 1619-2019. Kai is one of the contributors to that book for a full disclosure. Let's go to another caller Allan in Ithaca, New York. You're on America, Are we ready? Hi, Allan.

Allan: Hi. How are you?

Brian: Good.

Allan: Thank you for having my call this evening and thank you for having this program so timely and I love the title of course. I worked with Archbishop Tutu for a while before he began truth and reconciliation, he was my honorary chair since the early 90s. The thing that think that is not often articulated or understood is that together the mission is to reframe the importance of having a zero-sum game to one that's win-win. In order to have a miraculous transition like they did in South Africa, those who are in power need to understand that number one, they're not going to stay in power because you can't subjugate a people in the way that they did with the numbers that they had forever but number two, that there is a way forward in which they don't have to be absolute losers.

That's the only way to get the cooperative approach to the problem. The way things are structured now we continue to think that if somebody is winning, somebody else must to be losing and vice versa and that's the game that we play.

Brian: Allan, thank you so much for that thought. Dr. Blain, do you want to comment on that or do you see South Africa's truth and reconciliation process or anything from any other country as a model for us in any anyway?

Dr. Blain: Yes, I do think it is a model but I think ultimately before any change could happen, there has to be an open acknowledgement that there's a problem. I think this is why we constantly find ourselves going around in circles in the United States, because we find ourselves with leaders in this case president Trump and others who just keep denying systemic racism, even to think about police brutality and violence simply saying that it's not a problem and that these are just isolated incidents and they don't want to acknowledge that this is a pattern of behavior.

Before we can even imagine moving forward, we have to at least come to a place where we acknowledged this is a racist society, white supremacy still exists and Black people and Brown people in this country simply do not have the same opportunities, the same experiences as others. Once we do that, we can talk about real reconciliation.

Kai: When you mentioned violence in there, you have written and thought a lot about violence, Anti-Black violence, both from the state and otherwise. I imagine for a lot of people right now, they're thinking about Breonna Taylor and the ruling that the news today, that there were no indictments in her killing. I wonder on this issue specifically, what truth from our history you think needs to be told? On the specific question of police violence or specifically violence against Black people, generally, what is the truth that needs to be told about that if we're going to move forward?

Dr. Blain: I think the truth is that when it comes to policing in the United States the history goes directly back to the institution of slavery. A lot of people don't want to acknowledge that. Don't want to accept that because doing so means that we can't have this constant conversation about reforming and changing and tweaking and fixing an institution that fundamentally comes out of a context where Black people were subjugated from the very beginning. How do you make a system supposedly work when it's rotten to its core?

This is a question that activists are asking. It's a question I'm asking and people don't really want to be honest with the answer, because then when we talk about defunding the police or we talk about abolition, people get uncomfortable, but we have to grapple with this because the system itself, as I said is rotten and it comes out of a history of subjugation when it comes to Black and brown people.

Kai: Then, so what you're saying is we have to acknowledge that policing itself is a problem that from the start we can't see it. What about, is there a gendered element to this for a lot of people? There is also a conversation about, when they look at Breonna Taylor as a Black woman in particular they feel like, well, there's a truth here that we're not talking about, even amongst Black people in this kind of violence, I wonder about that.

Dr. Blain: Yes, in fact, every time I think about Breonna Taylor's case, in particular, I think about the work of someone like Kimberle Crenshaw and say her name campaign, which is so vital because this campaign has been working to bring greater attention and awareness to police violence as it pertains to Black women and girls. To this very day, the way we talk about police violence with the US is still very much centered on the experiences of Black men and boys.

We tend to imagine that Black women or girls are somehow protected, shielded, that's not the truth. We know this, of course, especially today, as we're reflecting on Breonna Taylor, but there's still a perception that this is a problem that specifically is unique to Black men and let me be clear. The majority of Black people killed by police in the US are young Black men, so I'm not disputing that but what I am saying is that Black women and girls are also vulnerable to say sanctioned violence and part of our national conversation around Breonna Taylor's killing is to acknowledge that and really to just realize how deep this problem is.

Brian: Let's take another phone call, Sharon in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. You're on America, Are We Ready? Hi, Sharon. Is Sharon there? All right, we'll try to get back to Sharon. How about Geronimo in Nash, North Carolina? Geronimo, you're on America, Are We Ready? Are you ready?

Geronimo: Thank you, for the opportunity. I want to say that I'm a Black, Hispanic, American citizen. I serve in the military and I don't think the problem is just as shallow as race. I think it's just all fairness as a whole. We see unfairness and the injustice that we face and just racist, yes, a face of it. To focus on injustice, the main point, the focus, the body that takes care of that will be the court. I think that we are focusing on the wrong place. We've seen a lot of energy being wasted, you know the places when the main focus, the humanity single point of failure will be the court system, is the body there to deliver justice.

It will be as simple as, and this is not physically possible I would say maybe, but at least we can analyze through it that if everybody in court will be blindfolded, I know titles will be called, racism will disappear from the face of the earth. Is the body there to provide justice. We try to define the police officers and we try to move this there but the problem is on the court system that is not giving us the gestures that we look for.

Brian: Geronimo, I'm going to leave it there and get some other voices on, thank you very much for your contribution. Now, I think we have Sharon in Harrisburg. Ready to go? Hi Shannon.

Sharon: Yes, hello, Brian, and I thank you so much for the show. I'm sorry, I was listening to the radio. I just want to thank you. I would like to comment on what professor Blain said about how we have to recognize the problem. I'm a white mother of a biracial son. My ex-husband is from West Africa Benin. Basically, I was in New York City, but I'm from central Pennsylvania and I moved back and this is what I'm going to say. We have to recognize that there is a problem and in certain pockets of our country, such as central Pennsylvania, you have a situation where my son's coach telling me that racism isn't a problem that was about a year and a half ago, two years maybe. Now we are no longer a family with one another.

Things like this happen because we cannot come to the agreement that there is a problem. On both sides of me in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania, I have two Trump supporters and when it comes to a conversation with my neighbor when it comes to bordering on politics, we actually have to say to each other, you know what? We both know we disagree, so there's really no point in discussing this matter any further in order to stay civil and friendly. The cognitive dissonance is that I don't know how in the world, I see it in central Pennsylvania. I didn't see that in New York City. [crosstalk]

Brian: Sharon, thank you very much.

Sharon: Thank you.

Brian: I'm going to move on for time, thank you very much, Dr. Blain, do you want to react to either of those last two callers?

Dr. Blain: Yes, I think one of the important things to remember here is that the US is a fairly young country and I know that that may sound odd to say, but it's true. Let's imagine that we are starting with 1776 as clearly, some people would prefer that date as opposed to 6019. Fine, if we start there it's important to remember that slavery was not abolished until 1865, right? With the 13th amendment, the end of the civil war. It's also important to acknowledge that the civil rights act was not passed until 1964. The Voting Rights Act 1965.

We're in 2020, when people say to me, "Oh it's not about race or it's important for us to potentially just think about on fairness as the caller just said," I say to them, understand that it's always been about race. How do you have an entire nation built on the backs of Black people built on slavery and then tell me in 2020, stop talking about race, stop talking about racism, it's just about injustice? No, it actually is about race. It absolutely is about racism because we are still fairly young and there are people who are still alive from the 1960s. We're not past this as we want to imagine. I would just caution people to be mindful of the timeline here, we're long ago.

Kai: Can I ask you, it's interesting because this seems like one of the truths that is very much not shared. That we're a young country and that racisms in a systemic way that my parents, for instance, experienced it just one generation back, is a really, really long time ago, so even in my family, that doesn't feel like a long time ago, but in somebody else's family, it does or can, if you're not exposed to it and I guess I just wonder about that. Is there a solution to that fact, this is a truth that is fundamentally not shared?

Dr. Blain: Absolutely, I think this is exactly why I teach history? Why I study history? Because I found that you can't truly understand anything. You can't understand contemporary politics, you can't understand injustice. You really can't even understand your day-to-day life, your experiences, or interactions with people if you don't spend time thinking about in studying the history. Every interaction is shaped by that history. When people see me as a Black woman it's shaped by history. The ideas that they have in their mind whether it's because of my race or my gender, it is very much rooted in history.

We often say the past is not past and I think it's true and this is a moment where we just have to remind ourselves, we're not so far removed. We want to keep telling ourselves we're far removed in order to say, move on, stop talking about it, but saying it doesn't make it so.

Brian: To Sharon's final point, it gets hard to even talk about these issues to people who disagree with you, and maybe it's harder than it used to be in the past. How do we move forward in a condition like that?

Dr. Blain: Well, I remain hopeful. As an educator, I have witnessed different responses to teaching history. I have had students walk into my classroom, very resistant to the topics that I'm teaching, and they let me know they're only there because they're required to take it and they're not interested in what I have to say and some leave on changed, but actually many do leave transformed. I've seen students enter the classroom and at the end, come to me and say, I didn't really understand systemic racism. I didn't even think that Black people had had it so difficult in this country, I thought that in and of itself, that whole narrative was a myth but now that I've been exposed to the history and the texts that you've assigned my mind is blown and I just want to figure out how I can help make this country a better place.

I hold onto those stories, we always have some people who turn their backs and say, thank you for the information, I'm not going to embrace it, I'm not going to change but I would say for every one person who says that there are many more who are truly transformed.

Bian: Jeffrey in Detroit you're on America, Are We Ready? Hi, Jeffrey.

Jeffrey: Hey, how are you doing.

Brian: Good.

Jeffrey: Yes, I'll talk about-- I just want to speak to the foundation of racism in this country. We're talking about the history, a little known fact that I heard from a Noam Chomsky lecture was that Adolf Hitler tried to justify the treatment of Jews in Germany. He used the United States and the treatment of Black Americans as a justification for treating them as second-class citizens, we know where that led. It just holds him, people who doubt the, like I said, the foundations of racism in this country I just think it's a very fascinating fact to see how we treated Black people in this country. How the world in general looked upon this fact.

Brian: Jeffrey, thank you very much. The historian among us, Dr. Blain, can you confirm that as the true fact?

Dr. Blain: It is. It's an unfortunate fact, but it absolutely is true. I think this is where I always emphasize even as we talk about US history is thinking about it through a transnational lens, because that fact alone is sobering. When you recognize that people have looked to the US as models to justify the extermination of Jews. I think for those who are listening, who might not have been aware of this, I hope that it just ignites a passion within you to really get to the business of doing the work of making this nation an inclusive democracy.

The work of democracy is unfinished. It just is that we've never actually been able to have a nation that truly reflects the ideals articulated in our constitution, and I hope that having this information will propel us to want to change.

Brian: This is America Are We Ready? I'm Brian Lehrer from WNYC radio with Kai Wright host of the WNYC podcast, the United States of Anxiety and historian, Keisha Blain, and we'll continue with your calls right after this.

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Brian: This is America Are We Ready? Are We Ready For Truth And Reconciliation? I'm Brian Lehrer, with Kai Wright, and Dr. Keisha Blain. Presidential candidates talk very differently about history and systemic racism. We're doing this in the context of the presidential race. Here's Trump from a rally just the other day, arguing that there is an attempt by some people in this country to analyze too much in the context of race, and he doesn't like how they analyze it either.

Trump: By viewing every issue through the lens of race, they want to impose a new segregation, and we must not allow that to happen. Critical race theory, the 1619 project and the crusade against American history is toxic propaganda, ideological poison that if not removed, will dissolve the civic bonds that tie us together.

Brian: He frames the problem as toxic propaganda, making too much of race and seeking to impose a new segregation as he called it. That was interesting to me, that clip is Trump trying to pin the word segregation of all words on the people who were trying to analyze US history in terms of, well, the segregation that has been a hallmark of it. Here is as far as I've ever heard him go to acknowledge systemic racism, and it's from those Bob Woodward tapes, the interviews that the journalist and the president did earlier this year for Woodward's new book, it begins with a Woodward question.

Bob Woodward Journalist: I think there is systematic or institutional racism in this country.

Trump: Well, I think there is everywhere, I think probably less here than most places or less here than many places.

Bob Woodward Journalist: Okay, but you said here in a way that it has an impact on people's lives.

Trump: I think it is and it's unfortunate but I think it is.

Brian: So different from most of his public language. Trump said to Woodward that systemic racism is everywhere and agrees that it's here in a way that has impact on people's lives, but it's something he says quietly, certainly not at his rallies. Here's Joe Biden, making a brief general reference to history when he visited Kenosha recently after the shooting of Jacob Blake, he starts by referring to Trump's statement about Charlottesville in 2017, that there were good people on both sides.

Joe Biden: It legitimizes the dark side of human nature, and what it did though it also exposed what had not been paid enough attention to the underlying racism and is institutionalized in the United States, still exists, has existed for 400 years.

Brian: Yes, Biden said that, but he doesn't talk about history much that we could find. We looked for more clips this afternoon, Dr. Blain you want to react to any of those?

Dr. Blain: Well, the first thing that I would just say just listening to Trump try to even talk about critical race theory or mention a 1619 project. I questioned whether he has even read the essays of the 1619 project. I really do question it because I think that if he's read the essays, maybe he would not be so quick to be essentially giving these talking points, and if he actually knew what critical race theory was and the impetus behind critical race theory in the first place, then perhaps he wouldn't be so quick to call it propaganda.

Brian: Can you for the sake of the audience who is hearing that term now, mostly out of the president's mouth in the context of the campaign, because he said that a number of times there, but who never heard of critical race theory before, because they didn't have it when they went to college or whatever reason that somebody might not have been exposed. Can you do the 30-second radio definition?

Blain: Sure. A critical race theory really comes out of the writings of Derrick Bell. This comes specifically out of the context of the 1970s and the early 1980s, and it came out of a realization by scholars, particularly legal scholars, lawyers, and activists that the advances of the civil rights era had essentially been reversed. They were really trying to come up with, I think, not simply just concepts and theories, but it's best described as a movement to challenge strategies that would take away the rights of Black people in this country, and it was an attempt to ensure that we would have social and economic justice.

Critical race theory in essence is not a bad thing. It's actually a very good thing, and anyone who's suggesting that it's a problem or that it's propaganda either doesn't know what it is, or quite simply is committed to a white supremacist frame of thinking, and they're not interested in anti-racist politics anyhow, but I think that's clear when we're talking about Trump.

Kai: Dr. Blain, this drives me to one of my questions about a truth that we haven't told or are maybe, or do we need to consider this truth? Which is that not everybody means well, that not everybody actually wants to live in a multiracial society in the United States. One, that seems self-evident to me. Do you agree? Then two, so then what? Then what in this conversation around truth telling what does that mean? If none of us, we're not all looking for the same thing.

Dr. Blain: Exactly. There are some people who unfortunately have embraced the belief that if certain groups of people in this country have an ability to live their life freely, to have equal access, that it would mean the loss of rights for them. We know that this is not true. It is very much possible to have a society in which people of various racial backgrounds can thrive, can have access to wealth, can have access to jobs and opportunities, et cetera. But there's this fear that if we talk about Black advancement, if we talk about Black political rights, that somehow it means in effect that we're taking away rights from white people.

This is how it's often framed openly when we talk about these concerns, and there are people who are truly fearful of a nation that actually extends rights and opportunities equally across the board. You're absolutely right. Not everyone's fighting for an inclusive democracy. Not at all.

Brian: I think we have a caller right on that point, Chloe in Holyoke, Massachusetts. You're on America Are We Ready? Hi, Chloe.

Chloe: Hi guys. Thank you so much for having me on, [chuckles] sorry. I'm a little nervous.

Brian: It's okay. We're all friends here.

Chloe: I am Afro Latina. I'm also a woman of color. I believe that white people are okay, not all of them, with keeping things the way they are and keeping them unfair. Somehow thinking that people of color having any success like Dr. Blain was just saying, takes away from them. I also believe that even subconsciously, they want to keep things the way they are.

Brian: Kai that goes to the point that you are starting to make before.

Kai: It also goes to the point our first caller made right, that we're looking, there's so much all or nothing in our society. I wonder if that's another truth that needs to be told is that the all or nothing perspective gets applied in these conversations about racial justice or our lack thereof? I wonder where we go from there. Dr. Blain, as you were talking and as Chloe was talking, I was thinking about the two political conventions this year. They really were two messages. One said, "Hey let's have a multiracial society." It'll be fun and prosperous.

The other said, "Hey, be careful about anybody losing their rights." I find myself at a loss of where, if those are the two parts of the conversation, how those two things come together?

Dr. Blain: It's hard. It's very difficult. As we're talking, I think about how we would just approach our lives. Part of the problem is individuals, essentially, being so selfish that the notion is, if there's a problem that doesn't affect me, then it's not really a problem. For many of us who are committed to social justice, clearly, we recognize that we can't always be making decisions directly tied to the individual that there has to be a collective vision here. I have to be able to say, Yes, I'm a Black woman. I have to be able to say that there might be some challenges that the last caller is facing as a transgender person, I may not fully understand, I may not fully grasp all those challenges, but I have to care.

I have to care because this person is a person. This person is a human being and on that basis alone, I have to fight for their rights and should be committed to fighting for their rights and freedom as much as my own, as much as the next person. Clearly, that's not a perspective that's universal. That's part of the problem is some people are okay, with seeing problems persist, because it doesn't bother them. But it should bother us.

Brian: Let's go to Steve in Dallas. Steve, you're on America: Are We Ready. Hi, there.

Steve: Hello.

Brian: Hi, Steve, you're on the air.

Steve: Oh, Hi. How are you guys doing?

Brian: Doing all right, What truth would you like to speak?

Steve: To answer your very first question, is America ready for truth and reconciliation? I honestly do not think so at all because one thing I've noticed, I'm a South Asian, male. I'm only 21 years old. From my standpoint itself, I can realize that there's so much hate in this country and each generation, it just trickles down. I believe that this country really needs is an education and people to look at themselves to see that-- Like the professor said that these are issues that may not affect me, but affect different human beings around this country. people get so close minded living in their own situation that they don't really care about one another.

I really think that this problem, we can talk about it, but it's going to take maybe generations to get get over this problem. Personally, I may be wrong, but that's my outlook in it.

Brian: What in your opinion, would get us over if you thought that through?

Steve: In my opinion, there's the just the political system in this country has failed so many Americans that in-- I feel like there's no other word for it. But there needs to be a reformation in this country. If you think about it, the average person in this country is what 47, around 30 to 40. We have people like Nancy Pelosi or Mitch Mcconnell who are closer to the 80s leading the country trying to change for policy, which I don't think is going to get anything done because if you listen to them, they're looking two years ago, compared to now, they just flip flopped on different ideas, different discussions just to please and keep themselves within where they are in their political system. There has to be like I said, no other better way for a reformation in this political system so there can be actual change.

Brian: Steve, thank you so much for your contribution tonight. Let's go from down in Dallas to up in Burlington, Vermont. Joe, in Burlington, you're on America: Are We Ready. Hi, Joe.

Joe: Hey, there, thanks so much for taking my call. First of all, I want to say with snapping my fingers at Steve right before me. I agree with a lot of what he said. I just wanted to say I think one of the truths that we need to have as a country is that the experience of a white person in this country is fundamentally different from the experience of a non-white person in this country and that's a function of generations of hangovers from our racist past. When I hear people, a lot of times, say, "Slavery is over, get over it. Jim Crow is over, get over it."

The fact of the matter is those things last for generations, and the repercussions of those systems persist today. That's just the fundamental truth that needs to be shared in order to have this reckoning that things are fundamentally different for white people versus non-white people.

Kai: Joe, what would one example of something that you think isn't shared, a knowledge that isn't shared between, depending on being white or Black? Or white or non-white?

Joe: Sorry. The question was cut off? What was the question again?

Kai: Just briefly, what would you say would be one concrete example of a way in which there's the reality for white people is different from the reality of non-white people that white people would not understand?

Joe: Access to inter-generational wealth and accumulation of inter-generational wealth, access to mortgage, access to credit, redlining around housing. There's just so many, and I'm sure I'm saying nothing new to the two guests, but these are systemic issues that are just really deep. I've had conversations with friends and family around these issues. sometimes when you say something simple like inter-generational wealth accumulation, is fundamentally different based on systemic racism, people are like, "Oh, okay." Maybe I've had some similar conversations that Dr. Blain has had with some of her students where there's like an eye opening sometimes. No, not always but I think education and access to knowledge really can change some of those narratives.

Kai: Thank you so much for that. Dr. Blain, what do you think about that? What do you think about this idea that we have? We've talked a little bit about this already, but this idea that we just have two totally different. We have two totally different truths, depending on whether you're white or non-white?

Dr. Blain: Yes, this is a persistent problem. It's partly why I just continued to keep pushing forward with the work that I do because I do worry about the narratives we tell. I worry that if I'm not writing this history of-- other historians are not writing these histories, we'll find ourselves at a moment where people will literally- and we've already started, where people will literally say slavery did not exist in the United States. Today we can talk about it and say, "Oh, that's preposterous. No one will say that." Where are we headed here?

If we're not going to be straight up and be honest about the history, if we're not going to acknowledge the decades, the centuries of white supremacy and how it has shaped this nation, we were not that far removed from being at a place where where people run around saying no, that thing called slavery, what was it? Didn't happen and be in complete denial. I'm committed to pushing the truth of this history that made people uncomfortable, because I think that's the only way we can move forward.

Brian: Dr. Keisha Blain is the University of Pittsburgh History Professor and President of the African American Intellectual History Society and co-editor with Ibram X. Kendi of the forthcoming Four Hundred Souls: A Community History of African America, 1619-2019. Kai is one of the contributors to that book. I will just say I can't wait to read it. I love the format and can't wait to see how you have chopped up 400 years of American history into 85 year pieces. Perfect for American attention spans these days. Dr. Blain, thank you so, so much.

Dr. Blain: Thanks for having me.

Brian: We are out of time for this hour of America: Are We Ready? America: Are We Ready is produced by Megan Ryan, Lisa Allison, and Zach Gottehrer-Cohen. That's Jason Isaac at the audio controls with Kai Wright, the host of the podcast United States of Anxiety. I’m Brian Lehrer.

 

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