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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone, and again for clarification as the mayor is going to be at 11:30 today. Sometimes it's at 11:05 after the news on Fridays and sometimes it's 11:30 depending on the mayor's schedule. I thought it was 11:05 today, but it's really 11:30. The mayor coming up at the bottom of the hour, hold your mayor calls until then. First for Earth Week this year, we've been inviting you to our second ever Brian Lehrer Show Plastic Challenge. Did you take the challenge?

If so, what did you notice about your use of plastic especially single-use plastic this week? Centrally, we'll invite you to call in on this, how did the use of plastic change for you during the pandemic? Has the pandemic made it easier or harder for you to avoid especially single-use plastic? Call in at 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 or if you're a long-time plastic abstainer with some hacks and advice for newbies, we'd love to hear from you on this final of our five Earth Week segments this week. We've done one every day this week. 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280.

To help walk us through the plastics maze, and with some of her own tips and tricks, we are joined again by the amazing Judith Enck, founder of Beyond Plastics, and some of you know, former EPA Administrator for the region of the country that includes New York, New Jersey, Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, and eight tribal nations as well. They call that EPA Region too. She's a visiting professor now at Bennington College. Judith Enck, welcome back to WNYC.

Judith Enck: Thanks, Brian. It's so good to be with you and I love your phrase, plastics abstainer. That's really what we should be doing. It's very Lenten also. I'm going to steal that if you don't mind.

Brian: You can steal it. You can consider it a donation to the cause. Do you think it's been good or bad for plastics abstention voluntary or not the pandemic?

Judith: It's definitely been bad, but I think people can cut themselves some slack. This was a really stressful year for New [inaudible 00:02:42]. People also wanted to support local restaurants. It would really be good to get restaurants to use less plastic, including for deliveries and at a minimum, do not include plastic straws, condiments, and plastic utensils. We have all of that at home. In fact, there's a bill in the city council sponsored by Helen Rosenthal, that would have restaurants only provide plastic straws upon request.

It's a way to save restaurants money and reduce plastic straw use. Unfortunately, the speaker, Corey Johnson, has not allowed that very sensible bill to come to the floor for a vote and there's also one minor, major technical problem. They may be allowing compostable plastic straws, which is a unicorn, not a good substitution. We hope they can fix that and get that bill to the city council floor so we'll have literally millions of fewer plastic straws to have to contend with in New York City.

Brian: You say compostable plastic straws or unicorn. Does that mean they don't really exist? Because it just so happens I have a friend who just bought some compostable plastic straws and they felt really hard and solid to her, not like paper straws. She said, "I'm going to go and bury this out in the park and come back in a month and see if it's really biodegradable."

Judith: It's not. It's still going to be there. Don't bury it in the park. Here's the dilemma. People are often paying twice is what they normally would for compostable plastics. They're not really compostable unless they go to a high-temperature commercial composting operation, which there are very few. For instance, there's only one in the entire state of Vermont. Do not put those compostable straws into city composting programs which I'm really happy that Mayor de Blasio announced yesterday is coming back to some communities.

The best thing is if you can possibly do it, just skips a straw, and then if you must use straws, use the metal straws, there's other material but don't fall for the greenwashing of compostable plastics because it's not really compostable.

Brian: Also, pandemic-related, I noticed that your website beyondplastics.org mentions a campaign directed at Amazon to end single-use plastic packaging. Tell us about that.

Judith: That's been one of the greatest upticks in plastic use during the pandemic, so many people are using e-commerce. Amazon is giving us massive amounts of these blue and white plastic envelopes. With the recycling logo on it saying it's recyclable and then you read the fine print and it says as certain drop off areas, which most people don't have access to. I also get e-commerce delivered in cardboard. We found out that in India, the nation passed a law prohibiting single-use plastic packaging for e-commerce, and guess what? Amazon stopped using plastic packaging in India.

They can do that here in the United States. They won't do it on their own so we will very likely need a law similar to India's. Amazon is very innovative. They're making a ton of money. I know why they're using plastic packaging because it's cheap, but if they were to shift to cardboard, at least that cardboard would be made from recycled material and can be easily put into your recycling bin. Of course, the gold standard is we want them to dramatically reduce packaging to the extent that they can.

Also, set up reusable packaging that when your package is delivered, you can give the old packaging back and they can reuse it.

Brian: Misha in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Judas Enck from beyondplastics.org. Hi, Misha.

Misha: Hi, Brian. Hi, Judith. I'm a restaurant owner in Brooklyn and I've been trying to transition to more compostable materials in our single-use line, but I find that leaving disposable plastic out of a customer's order can go one of which way, they call back and say, "I need forks and knives, I don't have any at home. I just moved," or, they say, "We didn't need it, but it's usually safer bet," because we're at the helm of Yelp reviews.

I also wanted to point out that shopping and grocery stores like Trader Joe's, for example, almost all of their produce is packaged in plastic and it makes it very difficult to avoid purchasing stuff like that out of plastic.

Brian: Help Misha as a restaurant owner solve that problem, Judith.

Judith: I so appreciate you making the effort and the same is on food app. A lot of people check no utensils, no straws, no extra napkins, and they still get it anyway so that feature is not really working on the food app. I think the best thing is to ask customers affirmatively, "Do you want that stuff?" They can say yes or no and then the default position could be no. You're right, some people are just moving in, they may not have utensils, but the vast majority of your customers that are getting food delivered at home have forks and spoons and napkins at home.

It's really important but I think if you also promote it on your restaurant that you're trying to help protect the environment and that therefore, you're only going to get these extras when asked.

Brian: When asked to provide them.

Judith: Yes, exactly. On Trader Joe's, you're absolutely right. They have publicly said they're going to use less plastic packaging, but we have not seen that yet, which is really disappointing. When I used to shop at the Trader Joe's in Brooklyn, I would never get my produce there if it was wrapped in so much plastic. I found myself having to make extra stops on the way home to avoid all of their plastic packaging. Trader Joe's can do a lot better.

Brian: I would also say to Misha if it feels like you need to take steps toward that, you can do what Judith said and make people opt in to getting plastic were delivered with their food, but you can also just give them the opportunity to ask to opt-out which isn't quite as aggressive so it's not quite as effective but maybe it's a step. Judith, if you agree that restaurants can take, so at least it's something that either the person on the phone if they're ordering on the phone.

Or on whichever app they're using, or website that can be displayed prominently, "Would you like plastic forks and knives?" and make them at least have the option to opt-out.

Judith: Exactly, the way to do it, Brian. Yes, exactly.

Brian: On Trader Joe's, I don't know if you're a member, but the last time you joined us for a Plastic Challenge, September 2019, I mentioned that one of the hardest things for me to eliminate was that my favorite cucumbers at Trader Joe's. Those really long ones came wrapped in plastic. You mentioned the TJs had promised to cut back, but we'd have to see. Now, I haven't been to Trader Joe's myself in while because there's not one close to my building and I'm not ranging as far for shopping during the pandemic. You're telling me they didn't do it?

Judith: I personally have not been in a Trader Joe's for the past year--

Brian: Because I will say that one of my producers, to be fair to them, found a mention from January of this year that they have started wrapping these cucumbers in a compostable wrap, not quite as clear or tight-fitting as the ones I used to see but one that will disintegrate in the regular trash. I'm curious if there is some victory at least on the Trader Joe's front for some of their produce.

Judith: I think the victory is don't wrap the cucumber in anything, don't put bananas in plastic bags, so much of this is over-packaging single-use, whether it's the mythical compostable plastic or regular plastic from chemicals and hydrofracking. In fairness, I have not personally been in a Trader Joe's in a year. I actually thinking of going soon now that I'm double-vaxxed, but the reports from the field is they still have a long way to go. Here's something I would give Trader Joe's a lot of credit for.

I got a call from various Trader Joe's shoppers telling me when the New York state plastic bag ban took effect that they were still handing out single-use plastic bags at the checkout. We get a lot of those reports. I want to share a phone number where people can lodge reports with New York state government on that. Trader Joe's is a big chain. I dropped everything. I called them and had a really good conversation with a senior person there who said they were confused about the effective date of the law because there was litigation.

He said they would immediately shift and not hand out plastic bags anymore and that they actually did it. It was amazing. I don't think it was my one phone call, but it probably helped a little bit. Now, the flip side of that is we have a number of people from Manhattan who shop at Gristedes, who have contacted us and saying that they are still handing out plastic bags. They have 16 stores in Manhattan and one in Brooklyn, I reached out to Gristedes just a few days ago and they have no intention of complying with the state law that ban single-use plastic bags.

I asked why. They said it had to do with COVID. That is a false excuse. The plastics industry has been saying you shouldn't use reusable bags. The CDC has said COVID-19 does not linger on surfaces and reusable bags. [inaudible 00:13:55] you can. I said to Gristedes, "How about paper bags?" They went off on a tangent. This is an urgent issue right now because that's a small chain and we cannot have Gristedes ignoring the state law, which bans single-use plastic bag at the checkout. They're going to need to start complying with the law very soon.

Brian: Judith Enck from beyondplastics.org, my guest. As we debrief this year's version of the Brian Lehrer Show Plastic Challenge here at the end of Earth Week. Now, Judith, when you were in charge of the federal EPA's Region 2, that included New York and New Jersey, but also Puerto Rico, right?

Judith: Yes.

Brian: Well, we're getting a call.

Judith: I love working on Puerto Rico issues.

Brian: Good. Well, you're going to get another opportunity because our next caller is Mark in Ponce, Puerto Rico. Mark, you're on WNYC with Judith Enck. Thank you for calling in.

Mark: Hi, Brian. Thanks for picking up. I'm a New Yorker. I keep my stabilized apartments in East Village. I've been living and working here in Ponce for a year and a half. I haven't thrown away a single yogurt container or a cardboard box. Luckily, I live alone and have a lot of space but I just can't find access to recycling here. Now, two weeks ago, I saw two different official trucks that said they were recycling but I live-- Due to the apartment complex, it has private carter. I just don't know how to get recycling going here.

Brian: Judith, can you help Mark in Ponce?

Judith: Yes, absolutely. When I was at the EPA, we started called the Puerto Rico Recycling Partnership to try to make recycling more accessible in Puerto Rico. I think it's fallen by the wayside during the Trump administration. I think the most important thing for you to do, Mark, and by the way, I love Ponce, what an amazing place to visit. You should contact your mayor because, as you know in Puerto Rico, the real power rest in the hands of the mayors. They probably have some recycling trucks and a place where the municipal pick-up drops the recycling off.

Now, since you're in a private apartment building, he may say, "You've got to go deal with your waste hauler," which is often challenging, but I bet you, if you talk to the mayor, she or he will tell you where the municipality stages their recyclables, and maybe you could-- it's an extra step for you, but it seems like you're taking those extra steps and you can drop off recyclables there. There is also an agency in Puerto Rico, ADS, that is in charge of recycling. They have an office in San Juan, they're very nice people, you should call them up.

I have to tell you when I started working at EPA and I would apply back to New York, sometimes I would bring my recyclable back with me. It was that bad because I wasn't going to throw out the Sunday New York Times or a couple of aluminum cans. It's a little zany, I will admit. You don't want to be trafficking back to New York City, but I think that you have more recycling options today in Puerto Rico than we had 10 years ago. Good luck with that. If you can't figure it out, go to the website beyondplastics.org and I'm happy to do a little troubleshooting with you.

Brian: Mark, I hope that's helpful. Thank you for calling us from Ponce. Eric in Red Bank, New Jersey, as we go from Ponce, Puerto Rico to Red Bank, New Jersey with Judith Enck. Eric, you're on WNYC. Hello

Eric: Good morning, Brian. Good morning, Judith. Thanks for taking my call. Yes, I've been trying to really reduce my plastic use for a long time, particularly go into the supermarket and even just getting vegetables where you put it in the little vegetable plastic bag. I would just save my one vegetable plastic bag and reuse it every week in my reusable canvas bag but then the pandemic hit. I really started to notice how much more people were relying on plastic and looking at plastic as this source of sanitary precaution for COVID.

Really just got me thinking about how important plastic is in certain situations, whether it's a disaster area where water's not potable and it's infected. You need to be able to provide plastic bottles of water and stuff like that. I also would love to see us maybe shift towards a mentality of like this stuff is important, but it's not for everyday convenience. It's for emergency use only. It has a place. It has a place in the medical setting. It has a place in a disaster area, but it's not just for convenience, it's not [unintelligible 00:19:24].

Brian: The pandemic really made you think differently about plastics than you had before.

Eric: Yes, because it also merged with the thing I watched on the FRONTLINE about recycling and plastics. Judith, I was hoping you would comment on this as well, where the plastics industry forever really sells this idea that it's up on the consumer, it's on the consumer to recycle. It's not about really reduce or reuse, the consumer's responsibility to recycle when in fact, all they're really doing a lot of the time is making more plastic because it's cheaper than using the recycled materials, so that's [inaudible 00:20:02] for countries where it gets burned.

Brian: That's a great point. Judith, I'll give you a little behind the scenes here, in deciding whether to do another Plastic Challenge for our listeners this year. We, at least, had a little bit of conversation on my team about whether we even want to put a focus on individual behavior change when what's really needed is systemic policy change.

Judith: Yes, I'm glad you had that conversation. Mark, the FRONTLINE episode he is referencing, everyone should look at, it's called Plastic Wars, it's [inaudible 00:20:41] .org. It's a one-hour FRONTLINE episode that documents that when you put a lot of plastics into your recycling bin, typically only #1, #2 plastic and sometimes #5 plastics, uniquely in New York City, actually gets recycled. The rest of it is either buried at a landfill, burned in an incinerator, or shipped to other countries where it creates massive pollution problems. There are countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, the Philippines.

This all happened when China closed its doors to accepting American recyclables because there was a high level of contamination, but the bigger point is this. The plastics industry, first, very purposely said, "Don't worry about using so much plastics, just recycle it," but the recycling rate for plastics is an abysmal 8.5%. That's mainly because many plastics don't lend themselves to be easily recycled, and also big companies like Coke, Pepsi, and Starbucks are using single-use virgin plastics because virgin plastics is often cheaper than recycled material.

I think we want to reduce plastic in our own lives, but that's actually only going to take [inaudible 00:22:15] systemic change. For me, that means laws and resources to enforce the law.

Brian: Real quick, we have 30 seconds left.

Judith: There is a bill introduced in Congress called the Break Free From Plastic Pollution Act, which dramatically reduces the use of plastic, also puts a pause on the construction of ethane cracker facilities, which is plastic manufacturing. Passage of a law like that at the federal level is what is going to get us the systemic change and give us a fighting chance of not [sound cut].

Brian: As Judith's line goes in and out a little bit.

Judith: -another problem.

Brian: Just to be super clear. Are you saying that people in New York City should only recycle #1 and #2 plastics because the rest is going to make it harder for the recyclable stream to actually be recyclable and the other plastics, you really have to just throw away?

Judith: Yes, but it should also be #5.

Brian: One, two, and five?

Judith: Outside of New York City, it's typically #1 and #2. None of the other plastics actually get recycled.

Brian: Judith Enck, formerly federal EPA Administrator for New York, New Jersey, Puerto Rico, and a few other places, and now with a group, beyondplastics.org, and professor at Bennington. Thank you so much, Judith, again, we'll talk.

Judith: Thanks, Brian.

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