Brian Lehrer: It is the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC Good morning again, everyone. Every Wednesday here in Black History Month, we're taking some time to discuss the less-recognized history of Afro-Latinos. Today, it's your Afro-Latino icons, who wants to name names and shout out an icon and tell us why that person is important to you and to the world, and why you want to let other people know about your Afro-Latino icon. 212-433 WNYC 212-433-9692 or you can name names on Twitter @BrianLehrer and why are we doing this?

Well, one reason for lack of awareness of Afro-Latino icons, and Afro-Latinos in general as a group in the United States, is from lack of representation. The importance of representation has long been discussed. We know that seeing someone who looks like you in positions of power influence can expand your understanding of what you're able to accomplish. Additionally, it's easier to learn about the complex experiences of a group through learning about the stories of iconic individuals, heroes, and others who represent the group.

Think about it in elementary school how is Black History usually first introduced, children read books or hear stories about black civil rights heroes probably Martin Luther King Jr., Rosa Parks others, where they celebrate iconic Black entertainers, Aretha Franklin, Beyonce, name your one but when identity is a bit more complicated, it's harder to recognize and celebrate it. With Afro-Latinos, you can miss the fact that someone has both African and Latino heritage and instead you only see one part of them, as we've heard some from some callers in this series as well. You can even miss this fact about yourself for part of your life.

With us now, to celebrate those who are both Black and Latino by introducing us to some Afro-Latino icons, as well as we take yours on the phone is Professor Vanessa K. Valdés, associate provost for Community Engagement at the City College of New York, and author of Diasporic Blackness: The Life and Times of Arturo Alfonso Schomburg. Professor Valdez Welcome to WNYC. Thank you so much for coming on. Do we have the professor?

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: Yes. Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, there you are. Hi, there, now I can hear you. Sorry about that.

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: Good morning. No, it's okay.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners again, this is for you. Who are your Afro Latino icons, let's name names 212-433 WNYC 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. Let's start with a book that you wrote about one Afro-Latino icon who should be known to a lot of New Yorkers, Arturo Schomburg. Who we have the Schomburg Center, that branch of the New York Public Library devoted to Black History. Who is Arturo Shamburger? Who was he more accurately, and why do you consider him to be an Afro-Latino icon?

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: Arturo Schomburg was born and raised in Santurce, Puerto Rico, which most people don't know. People know about the Schomburg Center for Research on Black culture. They associate him with the Harlem Renaissance, and that was a particular moments. His most famous essay, The Negro Digs Up His Past was published in 1925. I wrote the book because I asked myself, he was 51 years old when that essay came out, and say who was this man prior to that. To recognize that he was born and raised on what was then the Spanish colony of Puerto Rico, to a free Black woman who was from the Danish West Indies, and to a Puerto Rican family of Germanic descendants, the Schomburg.

He was a black Puerto Rican man, who then came to New York at 17 years old. New York City was a site of Afro-Cuban and Afro-Puerto Rican exiles were fighting and organizing and mobilizing for Spanish independence. Independence of those islands from Spain, and he was deeply involved in that effort and then the United States intervenes in that war. Cuba becomes a protectorate, Puerto Rico becomes a colony of the US, and he remains during this time stays in New York, and is collecting everything to do with global Black History.

Sometimes what happens with regards to Afro-Latina does is blackness supersedes at what kinds of blackness. I wrote the book to not only write about him, but also to give nuance and shed light on the richness and the depth of Black populations here in the United States specifically, but also here in the Americas more broadly.

Brian Lehrer: Let's go right on to another Afro-Latino icon. Celia Cruz, someone who often comes to mind when we think about Afro-Latina entertainers. Last week, we have this news, which gives us even a news hook for this, that she will be the first Afro-Latina featured on the Quarter. Tell everybody a little bit-- we're going to hear a little music in a minute but first, tell everybody a little bit about Celia Cruz, who soon going to be on the change in our pockets.

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: Celia Cruz is probably if people don't know about Cuban music, or they know very little about Salsa, this is probably the person you know. She is born in Havana, Cuba, rises to fame within Cuba in the 50s, and then after the revolution, comes to the United States travels around the world. Again, for many people. She is the introduction to Cuban music and again, many times people don't-- they go, "Okay, she's Cuban," and they don't pay attention to yes, but she is an Afro Cuban woman. She's a Black Cuban woman and the fact that she will be on US currency, as recognition of her contributions to the world of entertainment is a significant one.

Brian Lehrer: Steven in Kingston wants to shout out another iconic musician. Steven, you're on WNYC. Hi, there.

Steven: Hi, Brian. Hi, Professor. I missed the beginning because I was on hold for a second. I don't know if the professor was mentioning Arturo Schomburg, who certainly gets overlooked as being Puerto Rican.

Brian Lehrer: He wrote a book on Arturo Schomburg.

Steven: Great, lovely. I'm looking forward to that, and then just one more thing as a side note, as a kid growing up in the city in the late 60s and 70s. Roberto Clemente, of course, without but the one that I really cooled about is Machito, who is certainly the founder of Afro-Cuban music, and what an influence all the way to the poor. Even though Cuban originally came in the 30s and he was influenced by Duke Ellington and then returns that favor comes to New York, and that basically sets the tone for everyone that most people know. Like you just mentioned the Celia Cruz, Tito Puente, Eddie Palmieri, many New York-born musicians that people think of Salsa or Afro-Cuban music, and I had one more point that I forgot, but just that's the main gist.

Brian Lehrer: That's great stuff. Steven, thank you very much. We have somebody calling in who had personal contact with Celia Cruz, Kevin on Staten Island, you're on WNYC. Hi, Kevin.

Kevin: Good morning, Brian. I'm just calling to relate the wonderful experience. I'm a cinematographer, a camera person, and I have a number of occasions has a delightful opportunity to film Celia Cruz onstage in Puerto Rico and in Africa.

Brian Lehrer: Any description of that experience.

Kevin: I'm sorry, pardon me?

Brian Lehrer: Well, what sticks to you? You have a memory of a moment or something that you saw of her through your camera or anything like that?

Kevin: Well, I can remember viscerally feeling her presence because I was near enough on stage with her to almost feel the vibration from her powerful voice, a beautiful powerful voice, and what a wonderful woman.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much, Kevin. Thank you for your call. Let's stay on music for just a second Professor Valdés, because Mariah Carey is someone else you refer to as an Afro-Latina icon yet, I'll bet a lot of people wouldn't recognize her as such. Why do you think we should talk about Mariah Carey when we discuss Afro-Latina music icons?

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: Well, it's interesting because most people know in and she herself has talked about being mixed race and growing up in Long Islands, and her mother being Irish, her father being Black. Her father is a Black Venezuelan man and so that detail again, she is emblematic of so many people who as you mentioned, who either they don't understand. They don't know, they don't recognize that historical moments, or that little bit of like, "Okay, wait, but if he's Black from Venezuela, that's not African American, it is still Black but what was that man's and experience coming from his family and being on Long Island," it just gives another sense, another nuance to that experience.

Brian Lehrer: So cool. All right. Do you hear the influence at all? I'm not sure that I do. It sounds like American pop, but am I missing it, or do we just say, "Hey, this is Afro-Latina because she's Afro-Latina."?

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: Well, and that's a different, and I appreciate that question. No, I don't hear an influence of Latin American musical influence. Unless we then go back to well, [laughs] we know most popular music in the United States is built on Black music R&B, and so in that sense, but yes, I appreciate that also. Again, and this is something that I don't know the extent to which she herself would claim AfroLatinidad as an identity. That's also an important part of this conversation.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Listeners, if you're just joining us, as one of the things we're doing on the show during Black History Month, we're talking about Afro-Latinos. In particular, Afro-Latino history, different aspects of it today with Afro-Latino icons as our topic and our invitation to you to call in and shout out a name, name a name of an Afro-Latino icon who other people maybe should know. We're doing our Afro-Latino History series every Wednesday during Black History Month. Our guest today from the City College of New York of CUNY is Professor Vanessa Valdés, who's the author of the book, Diasporic Blackness: The Life and Times of Arturo Alfonso Schomburg. Let's move on to the arena of sports now, I think with Andre in Brooklyn. Andre, you're on WNYC. Thanks for calling up.

Andre: Hey, how are you doing? Thanks so much for being a part of this.

Brian Lehrer: For you, who you got for us?

Andre: I wanted to-- A gentleman earlier shouted out who I originally wanted to shout out, which was Roberto Clemente, but also Carmelo Anthony.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. From the Knicks. Light of the Knicks.

Andre: Oh, and that would be it. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. Thank you very much. Do you write about Roberto Clemente anywhere? We had Congressman Espaillat on the show earlier this week, who of course is the first Dominican-American ever elected to Congress. He says he identifies as Afro-Latino, and when I asked him to preview the segment for us by shouting out an Afro-Latino icon or two, one of the names he named was Roberto Clemente, the legendary baseball player. He said Clemente really should have his number retired, number 21 for all time, for all teams, like Jackie Robinson's was. You're into Roberto Clemente at all?

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: I haven't written about him, no, but I think Roberto Clemente, for a lot of people, not only because of his success in baseball, but also his activism on behalf of Latin Americans and the tragic way in which he died, I think is why people memorialize him. I agree with Congressman Espaillat, I don't know if people remember that when he first came to Congress, that he wanted to be part of both the Congressional Black Caucus and the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, as an Afro-Latino, because he was saying, "No, I belong to both communities."

That struggle has been a historic one, no you choose either one or the other. For so many of us who live both identities and who have historically live both identities, there is no choice. I'm glad to see that we are in a moment where you can see more not only synchronicity, but acknowledgement of both groups at the same time.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. In fact, he mentioned in that same answer being disappointed that he was rejected by the Congressional Black Caucus, and is in the Hispanic Caucus, but he says, "Hey, I'm a dark-skinned Dominican. I have African roots as well as Latin roots. I'm Afro-Latino." He wanted to be in both caucuses, but he was not allowed into the Congressional Black Caucus, and he was disappointed by that. Jose in Montclair, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jose.

Jose: Hi. How are you? I wanted to mention Julia de Burgos, who for me is just an iconic feminist writer super important in Puerto Rican independence literature. Recognized by many Spanish speaking authors throughout Latin America as a great writer and a wonderful poet. I think she's often ignored as a woman of color. Julia de Burgos.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Let's keep going. Christian in Carmel, Indiana. You're on WNYC. Hello from New York. Christian, hello.

Christian: Yes, hello. Good morning. You were talking about musicians before, but Joe Arroyo. African, talking about the slave trade. Talking about slavery for the first time in music in South American salsa, and mixing all those sounds like Zouk and Soca. When La Rebelión hit, and that was the first time they talked about the Black culture on the coast of Columbia, that you have in Ecuador, Columbia on the northwest coast was fantastic. It's like, oh, wow. Yes, someone's talking about this.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Let's stay in the music track. Here is Edson in Manhattan. You're on WNYC. Hi, Edson.

Edson: Hey, Brian. Thank you very much for taking my call. I'm Brazilian, born and raised in Brazil, and I want to talk about Zumbi dos Palmares. It's like Zumbi in English. He was born 1655 and died 1695. He was a huge figure in Brazilian history. He was a Quilombo. Quilombo was a settlement that runaway slaves run from the Portuguese traders. He helped to create the famous Palmares Quilombo. He was very, very important in Brazilian history.

Palmares was a settlement located in Pernambuco, north eastern of Brazil. If your listeners want to know more about Palmares in Brazil, I recommend the book, Palmares, by the Brazilian, Mr. Gayl Jones. Very interesting. Very important book. Also somebody who passed away, and probably, I think Brian, you are not a soccer fan, but you probably know a little bit about him, Pele, who passed away.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, who doesn't know Pele? Yes.

Edson: More than any Brazilian figure, any president, ambassador, he was really exported Brazilian culture, Blackness, soccer, samba et cetera. He was really unbelievable. If people know about Brazil, it's thanks to Pele.

Brian Lehrer: Edson, thank you for all that. Really appreciate it. We're going to Lorraine in Neptune, New Jersey. You're on WNYC. Hi, Lorraine.

Lorraine: Morning Brian, and thank you so much for taking my call. As a matter of fact, it's a little different line of question, but it's about my son, Denzel. He is a Latino African American. I adopted him nine years ago, and you met him. He came to a Yankee baseball game, was his first one, and that was thanks to complimentary tickets from your show.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, wow. I think I actually remember that. Yes, we had a listener's outing to a Yankee game one day with me and some other folks. Yes. How old was he at that time?

Lorraine: Oh, four. It was his first Yankee game.

Brian Lehrer: I do remember somebody having a four year old in tow that day. I think I remember meeting your son.

Lorraine: Well, it's perfect [unintelligible 00:18:32].

Brian Lehrer: What do you want to-- Go ahead.

Lorraine: Well, he's growing up. He's going to be 11 in two weeks, and as I explained to your dispatcher, I'm a native New Yorker. I grew up on Mulberry Street, and I know Latinos as an Italian socializing with the Puerto Rican element. I don't know enough about the heritage, especially the African American combination. Is there any literature or is there anything that could be recommended so that this little guy who's now asking lots of questions, he was separated from his mom when he was five months.

He knows that. He knows she's Latino, her mother was born in Puerto-- His grandmother was born in Puerto Rico. I don't know much else. They don't give us a lot of information, and his father, unfortunately, is deceased, who was African American. I want to give him a little background beyond the scope that I have for my own experience.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Professor, put on your educator advisor hat and help Lorraine, can you?

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: Yes, of course. One, I really love the fact that you want to make sure that your son has that literature. I would say first, if you have a chance to jump on the two or three or get to the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture, they actually have a beautiful bookshop that includes-- Or a gift shop, but it has a children's literature section, both young, middle grade, and so there's a book there that talks about Arturo Schomburg. There's a book there that talks about, I think Dominicans come in all colors. They have other books there that talk about this background. Again, part of Afro-Latinidad is capacious in that. You can be Afro-Latino if you have African American heritage and Latino heritage. For example, many people don't know Sammy Davis Jr. can be considered Afro-Latino because his mother was of Hispanic heritage, was a Puerto Rican heritage.

You can also be Black Latin Americans, and so it's wide and vast, and I would say to go that specific gift shop in that specific place and talk to people there, and you'll see a number of resources that they have there.

Brian Lehrer: Lorraine, I hope that's helpful as a start. Of course, there's a lot more that you can do but good luck. It's so nice of you to call in. I remember that game and seeing your son fondly and thank you for it. Sounds like you're being a beautiful adoptive mother. Can we finish for a few minutes going even deeper on the issues that Lorraine suggests? Why is Afro-Latino representation less apparent than the representation of other racial groups? I'm not sure her phone call would even have been necessary. Her question in the way that she asked the question, were it for many other different groups in our midst?

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: I think, again, one of the things that the Latinx populations in this country have done is really push the definitions not only of whiteness, which is the reason why on our surveys or on our censuses, we see white, non-Hispanic white, Hispanic white. We see the push with regards to ethnicity, but also with regards to Blackness. Again, in years past, we have a historic definition of Blackness in this country. Many people we associate Blackness with the rural south and then the communities that emerge out of the great migration, so throughout the North Midwest, California.

We do not historically think about Latin Americans. We're not taught about Blackness in Latin America. Latin Americans in Latin America are not taught about Blackness. For example, when we look at something like the 1619 projects, that is a project that is still based on British colonization. We all know about Jamestown and the Puritans. We learn about Columbus in 1492. We don't learn that there were Black people on all three of his ships.

We don't learn about how Black people from 1492 to 1619 is over 100 years and there were free Black men in particular in the Americas that were doing these explorations that were alongside [unintelligible 00:23:11].

You have someone like [unintelligible 00:23:14] that's with him. You have some in Puerto Rico and in Cuba, Estevanico who's exploring in Florida, the founding of Los Angeles is partly half of those families were Afro-Mexican families. We just don't correlate those things. That's part of the issue, is we don't learn the nuances, the details of these histories, and so with the rise of AfroLatinidad certainly in the last decade with more books, with more scholarship we are learning more about this.

Brian Lehrer: Few more names coming in on Twitter. Listener writes, "Two actors I watched for years were Percy Rodriguez and Pano Hernandez." Someone else shouts out former Congressman Charles Rangel. Many accomplishments over the course of his service as Congressman. Did he have Latino roots as well as Black? You're familiar with Rangel?

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: I think his mother was. I'm going to check that while you're talking.

Brian Lehrer: All right. You do that while I mentioned some other names. People are tweeting. Irene Cara, Afro-Latina, whose music is iconic of an era in television. Then somebody has an observation that I'd like you to comment on, and then we're going to be at a time. Says, "The conversation of how Afro-Latinos are missing from Spanish media is long overdo."

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: We've been talking about an English language context. How about a Spanish language media context?

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: Absolutely. PS Congressman Rangel's father was from Puerto Rico.

Brian Lehrer: There we go.

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: There we go. Within Spanish television, certainly here. We know about Univision and Telemundo, the images that we have are almost all white Latin Americans. Whereas, it is a contrast to the lived experience on the ground in all of those countries. In the Summer of 2020, began a reckoning on Univision and on Telemundo and in Spanish media with the murder of George Floyd, you saw more conversations happening.

As years have gone by, now you see in Spanish media, even a conversation about Afro-Latinidad, but I recently took part in an interview where talking about Arturo Schomburg, and the person with whom I was speaking kept saying, "Oh, he collected African American." I said, "No, he collected global Black, including Latin America." There continues to be erasure within Latin American, not only educational spaces, but media as well, because there is such a negation of Black contributions and all realms intellectually.

There's this idea of like, okay, in entertainment, as we hear in sports and entertainment, that's fine, but we don't know the histories of politicians. We don't know the histories of intellectuals. Myself and scholars like me are continuing to write and recover those histories so that we know about it.

Brian Lehrer: That scholar is Professor Vanessa Valdés, associate provost for Community Engagement at City College, and author of the book, Diasporic Blackness: The Life and Times of Arturo Alfonso Schomburg. Thanks so much for bringing some icons of your own and writing along as we took so many from our listeners. This was really fun and informative too. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Professor Vanessa K. Valdés: Thank you. Have a beautiful day.

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