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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Now, part two of our Thursday, August advice series with Jenée Desmond-Harris, aka Dear Prudence, on Slate's advice column and podcast of that name. To reset a little, we do advice segments on this show from time to time, and many of you seem to appreciate them. We've done health advice of various kinds, financial advice, parenting advice.

We sometimes play a game we call Advice Roulette, where callers chosen at random ask each other for advice. This month, we're trying something new that we hope is turning out to be fun and really interesting and helpful to some of you too. Jenée and I are teaming up for three Thursdays on this show. Later this month, I'll be on the Dear Prudence podcast with her as Jenée does usually invite a non-expert partner along for the ride.

We recorded that yesterday. It'll be out late next week, I'm told. This show, being the call-in show that it is, we're also going to invite you to weigh in on the two advice questions that we will try to answer in this segment today. Hold your calls, of course, until you hear the question. For now, please join me in welcoming once again, Dear Prudence, aka, Jenée Desmond-Harris. Hi, Jenée, welcome back to WNYC.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Hi, Brian, I'm delighted to be back. Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: I think last week went well. We got positive feedback from the two letter writers whose dilemmas we addressed. In fact, as you know, I'll tell the listeners, even though we keep these anonymous, one of them wants to come on with us later in this segment to describe how we try to implement some of the advice. That was the guy who was deciding how to help his friend, who seems to have had a personality change that's making both of them unhappy. Do you get feedback a lot after the fact?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Once in a while, I do. I love it when I receive feedback. Sometimes in the inbox, I'll have a note that says, "Your advice wasn't great. You didn't know the whole story." Of course, I didn't because I only knew what was in the letter. Other times, I'll get a genuine thank you, so I really appreciate that. Of course, I also do get feedback from our readers about the advice they would have given and whether they think I was on target or not.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and we got it from both of last week's letter writers. I don't know if you have that in front of you, the note that you got from the other one that we dealt last week like what to do about the neighbors who were leaving strollers and garbage jugs and stuff in the hallway.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: I don't have it right in front of me, but I remember the letter writer said that she really was serious about the fire hazard part of it. She pointed out that she herself had been a mother of twins who never left her stroller in the hallway. That really made me think, "You know what? Okay, you have a right to criticize these people because you've really been through it yourself."

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and one of the things I love about your prudence in general and definitely you in the context of this show so far is how open-minded you are and open to having your own views evolve. These are conversations. We are not the Catholic Church to cite our previous segment, telling people what they have to do and what they have to believe, right?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Absolutely. I think--

Brian Lehrer: These are conversations that are evolving.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Yes, and my views are always evolving based on the feedback I get and based on what I experience out in the world and what I read and learn.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Let's go on to today's first letter. As we did last week, we've recorded the text of the letter, and here it is.

Letter Writer 1: Dear Prudence, my husband and I are worried about our daughter's relationship. She's 18 years old and in a relationship with another 18-year-old girl. They've been together for over a year now, but most of the second half of the relationship was a lot of fighting and crying and distress. Our daughter also suffers from depression and anxiety. She's a college student in a very demanding college away from home in another state.

Her girlfriend is not in college and at home in New York City and not working. Her girlfriend is also suffering from mental health issues. Initially, both my husband and I were very supportive of the relationship. Now, we feel that it is harmful to our daughter. Recently, our daughter had a nervous breakdown, which resulted in them almost breaking up. Then they decided to restart with new ground rules and better communication strategies.

My daughter assures me that she's setting better boundaries now. Also, my daughter is in therapy, and this is one of her topics and goals she's working on with a therapist. We have now told our daughter we don't want her girlfriend to come over to our house. My dilemma is that, obviously, we cannot prevent our daughter from seeing her girlfriend but feel very strongly that she's making a mistake and this will not help her get better in terms of her depression.

Finally, we closed the door and insisted that her girlfriend should not come to our house, which may or may not have been a mistake on our end. On the one hand, it signals that we don't believe in the relationship to be a healthy one, but it also closes a door for future reconnections. We don't want to lose our daughter and we want her to be well. It's very hard to watch her being hurt.

Brian Lehrer: Again, that letter seeking advice from Slate's Dear Prudence, Jenée Desmond-Harris, and me and listeners will crowdsource the advice like we did last week. What advice would you give this letter writer, listeners? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. Jenée, I'll say first, just to acknowledge, it's so painful for parents to see their kids suffer.

I totally feel for these parents who have to watch their 18-year-old kid go through the various things she's going through, according to the letter. I'm a parent. You're a parent. It's just so hard to watch your kids suffer. Sometimes as parents, we can feel so helpless when there's no intervention that can easily spare our kids from pain. I think that's true whether they're 18 months or 18 years or whatever. My heart goes out.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: We're on the exact same page. My first reaction was that one thing that really came through this letter was just how much the letter writer and her husband care about their daughter. Yes, she's 18. That's technically an adult, but I'm sure she still feels like their baby. I know that birthday marks the official transition to adulthood, but it really doesn't mean anything emotionally. I'm sure this young woman seems even more fragile because of her mental health issues. That said, banning the girlfriend from their home was a mistake. It was the wrong choice. It's not going to get the results they want.

Brian Lehrer: I agree. My impulse here is to not think barring the girlfriend from their home is the best way to help their daughter. I think, generally, it's more likely to give the young couple something to feel unified about, anger at the parents, rather than drive the couple apart, which is their goal. I know a situation in my family years ago where the parents barred their daughter's boyfriend from their home and the daughter's response was to say, "If you're barring him, then I'm never coming over either." The daughter didn't speak to her father in that case for two years. That kind of reaction is a possible outcome that I'm sure these parents don't want.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Absolutely. I also don't think their choice will be effective when it comes to the result they want, which is a happy child. Depression and anxiety are not things you have because you're in the wrong relationship. I would really encourage the letter writer to just try to mentally separate her daughter's mental health issues from her troubled relationship. I think the anxiety and depression probably need more attention. It takes time to find the right therapist, the right medication, and to really manage these things.

I almost wonder if the letter writer could be using this problematic girlfriend as a distraction from all of that. It's an issue that feels easier to confront and tackle. Let's be honest. Bad relationships with fighting and breaking up and crying are kind of a rite of passage. The relationship itself doesn't sound uniquely troubled to me, certainly not abusive. It sounds like the kind of relationship you have when you're a teenager, someone in your early 20s figuring out who you are and what you want.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, since Jenée and I, who do not rehearse our responses together before [laughs] she comes on the show and we didn't know what each other were going to say, we're generally agreeing here. Does anybody disagree with us or any other advice you want to give these parents? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

One thing that you just said, Jenée, that I was also thinking about is that they don't say in the letter that the girlfriend has been abusive to their daughter or even really blame the girlfriend explicitly for causing their daughter's unhappiness with the relationship, just that there's been a lot of fighting and crying and distress. Maybe it's not a good match all around. If there was bad behavior by the girlfriend, that might change it for me. In that case, barring her from the home might be a way of setting boundaries, but I don't quite see that in the words of the letter.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Exactly. As a general rule, my advice to people who write in about being troubled by a loved one, being in a bad relationship, and this is a very common category of letters, is that if you think the relationship is bad for them but it falls short of being abusive and that could be physically or emotionally, your best move is unless they ask, "What do you think about my relationship?" be completely fake. Pretend to be supportive. I'm serious here.

That's because nobody has ever broken up with someone because they're friends and certainly not their parents said, "You know we don't like that person. We're putting our foot down." Maybe your callers will disagree. Maybe someone has broken up with someone for that reason. In general, I just don't think that's the way you get someone out of a bad relationship. I think if you're coming from a place of caring about them, the best choice is to be present and just show that care and make sure that you're a supportive person in their life who can counteract whatever bad things you think are happening in the relationship.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Robin in West Harlem, you're on WNYC. Hi, Robin.

Robin: Good morning to you both. I'm calling to passionately agree with what you're saying. When I was the age of the letter writer's daughter, I fell into a relationship with someone whom I actually eventually married. Thankfully, I'm not married to him anymore, but my parents were heartbroken. It was abusive and destructive and awful. At no point did they close the door to me. I knew I was upsetting them. I knew they disapproved. When things fell apart, I could turn back to them and they were there for me.

That made all the difference in helping me see the light and step out of that awful relationship. I feel very, very strongly that, as you have said, people don't break up with a bad relationship because Mom and Dad don't like that person. In fact, it often has the exact opposite effect of like, "Oh yes? Well, I'm on my own now and you can't tell me what to do and I'm going to stay with this jerk no matter what." I just want to underscore how important it is to keep the doors open.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for using the word "jerk," by the way, as opposed to the word you originally used with our screener, which we're not allowed to air.

[laughter]

Robin: Yes, I did edit.

Brian Lehrer: Can you say anything about how your parents helped you manage during the early phase of that relationship?

Robin: Well, in particular, my husband wanted me to step away from my father, which I'm very close to my dad. That was a big red flag for me at some point of like, "Wait, this is a bad sign." I knew they didn't like him. I knew they disapproved, but they didn't get up in my grill about that, so to speak. I knew how they felt, but they left that quiet. When the two of us would go visit my parents, my father was gracious and a good host and welcoming, which I very much appreciated because I knew they didn't like this guy at all.

Brian Lehrer: It sounds like in your case, it was going both ways. Your husband wanted you to distance yourself from your father.

Robin: Yes, he did, which is weird. That was, as I say, a big red flag. Nothing will ever separate me from my dad.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for weighing in. Jenée, do you get these all the time, like one person or another wanting somebody else in their life not to have anything to do with someone else in their life and it can go in multiple directions?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Absolutely. Bad relationships, bad friendships. There's often people who are caught between two friends where they like one and really dislike the other one. People who might have a good relationship with their parents, but their sibling has a strained relationship with them. It's difficult because we all relate to people differently. Someone who seems amazing to one person might be the worst person in the world to someone else. That's a really hard thing for letter writers to sit with and accept. I understand the impulse to try to get everyone to feel the way you feel, but I want to make an argument that that is wasted energy because it never works.

Brian Lehrer: Here's somebody who's going to disagree, I think. Kylie in Northern Virginia, you're on WNYC. Hi, Kylie.

Kylie: Hi. Okay. First of all, I wrote it in the text. This needs, I think, every Thursday. I would love this every Thursday at least once a month.

[laughter]

Kylie: I love it. I also want to just put, I'm the parent of a six-year-old, so this is new for me. This is what I wanted to press on you guys with. She's 18. Prudence, I love that you're saying she's 18 legally, but she's in college out of state. She's probably not supporting herself. I'm making some assumptions here, but she's probably on her parents' dime. If her parents say, "Listen, we've really tried this. We think this is the wrong choice for you for these specific reasons. I really love you, but I disapprove of this person or this activity, and so this cannot happen under my roof."

Obviously, they'd have to say it that lovingly. It was a big fight, but I'm not so sure why that's wrong. I think that if the young person came back and said, "Well, if she can't come or this person can't come under your roof, then I'm not coming either." Then it's like, "Eh." Let's look at this game of chicken because, and I'll just say this and I'll stop talking, I'm having a hard time as I continue to parent the six-year-old.

As things are happening outside of the world, how do I reconcile that with my value system? If I'm still paying for it, it's not like I'm trying to be a tyrant and save my money my way, but the flip side is that she's 18. It is their way to a certain degree. That's what I wanted to push on this whole notion of they actually may be able to say not under my roof. You have to comply with that until you're a full-fledged adult because you're still-

Brian Lehrer: -developing.

Kylie: -our child.

Brian Lehrer: Jenée, what do you think?

Kylie: Developing. Yes, thank you.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: I hear that and I totally acknowledge that "my house, my rules" is a very common parenting philosophy. When I respond to letters, I always try to draw a distinction between what you have the right to do and what I think is likely to get you the results you want. I agree with the caller, absolutely. The parents own the house. They're paying the bills. They may be supporting this child or teen, young adult. They have the right to say, "Your girlfriend is not welcome in our home." I just don't believe that that's going to lead to the result they want, which is a mentally healthy child who still has a relationship with them.

Brian Lehrer: Kylie, thank you very much. We're going to move on to the next part of this conversation. I think we will have one of the letter writers from last week, as I mentioned at the beginning, to debrief, trying to implement some of the advice that came up on the show last week. I'll just say one more thought about this, Jenée. They're 18, they've only been together for a year, they're in a long-distance relationship, and they're fighting. They'll break up on their own.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: I can't guarantee it, of course, but I wonder if Las Vegas would give any odds on these two who are 18 living in different cities, crying and fighting a lot when they're together, that they're still a couple when they're 19.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: This couple is not going to be together at Thanksgiving.

Brian Lehrer: If nothing else, maybe that's reassuring, though it's certainly not guaranteed for the parents who wrote that letter. Good luck to the whole family. Brian Lehrer on WNYC with Jenée Desmond-Harris, aka, Dear Prudence from Slate. Part two after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC partnering today and three Thursdays in August with Slate's Dear Prudence advice columnist and podcast host Jenée Desmond-Harris. She's coming on three times this month here with me. I'll be on once later in the month on Jenée's podcast. That'll be out next Friday. Last week, we responded to a letter from a guy who said his longtime friend, age 67, does not have personal conversations with him anymore.

Instead, he speaks as if he's giving a lecture, loud, forceful diatribes about politics, money, relationships. He's the expert on all things now. This tendency is relatively new and the letter writer said, "I have witnessed this shift gradually over the last few years, especially about politics, and we are both progressive liberals." Those are some lines from the letter to refresh your memories or bring you up to speed if you didn't hear it last week, and he asked for advice on how to handle it. The letter writer, Tim, joins us now. Tim, thanks so much for coming on.

Tim: Brian and Jenée, thank you so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: What was hearing that segment with your letter like for you last week? I gather you were considering trying to act on some of the advice?

Tim: Yes, absolutely. The advice is so clear and there was such a variety of advice I could pick and choose, but I got to tell you, I was scared. I was scared to broach this subject with Michael and ruin a friendship that we had developed for so long. We saw each other Sunday and the day went fine until we started one of those conversations. I just had to stop him. I had to stop Michael. I got a little bit more angry than I thought or forceful, I should say. I did use the advice, which was use the eye. Use, "I feel this way, I'm feeling this way." I was able to tell Michael how upsetting it was to have to be exposed to his energy, his anger.

The anger wasn't necessarily directed at me, but it was a bad feeling. The most remarkable thing happened. Michael immediately sat down and listened to me. After that, we had the most wonderful conversation, a conversation we haven't had in actually a number of years that was really just about us and not about those big subjects. That happened on Sunday. I got to thank you. That advice was great and reparative. We are on a totally different level and I'm so glad I had the nerve to actually say something.

Brian Lehrer: I'm so glad to hear this. It just warms my heart. Jenée, what are you thinking? I think you were the one who said, "Use the I-word," last week.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: I'm delighted. I actually want to give you credit for that, Brian. I think it was your advice. Whatever the case may be, I'm so happy it worked. I just wanted to acknowledge how hard it is to have those conversations that are easy to tell someone to have, but to actually be confrontational in any way with someone who you care about knowing there's a possibility that might upset them is so tough. I just congratulate you for doing that and I'm really, really happy it worked out.

Tim: Well, thank you both. It was such good advice.

Brian Lehrer: One of the things that I heard from some people after the show that maybe didn't turn out to be true, but people said that we should have perhaps emphasized a little more was the possibility of this really being a medical issue, and that he should get medically checked out. I think everyone is rightfully shy about tagging another person with mental health issues or tagging a 67-year-old with potential brain issues. Your description of his personality change did suggest to a lot of people that those questions should be dealt with explicitly in some way by you and him. Do you feel less now that you've broken through back into a more normal, per your history, personal conversation that there isn't something medically to be concerned about?

Tim: Well, that was a fear I had, of course, for the past couple of years. Seeing us age together, I'm only 62, but I know that changes are happening and frustrations are happening and with everything else going on in the world and with his life as I said. We actually were able to talk about that. Not a lot, I didn't really dwell on that. We're keeping an eye out on each other because we both have moms who are in their 90s and really declining. That's a conversation about our moms' health we have a lot. Our pact is to be able to speak to each other if we see that happening in ourselves. That health is always there.

Brian Lehrer: Jenée, do you have anything else for Tim?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Just another congratulation. I love the idea of an agreement or pact to keep an eye on each other. I think all friends should have that because it opens the door in advance to those difficult conversations because you can say, "You know what? We agreed that we would talk about this and now's the time."

Tim: It's still scary, though. It's very scary.

Brian Lehrer: Tim, relevant to this show, we both noted the fact that he was giving you lectures, diatribes about political things that you agreed on. I can hear some head just nodding out there and saying, "Yes, I have this buddy also who I agree politically with, but they just won't stop." I'm just curious if there was anything you want to reveal, if that's the right word, about what it is he gets onto politically just because this is largely a political show, and your take.

Tim: It's not the political end of it. It's the fact-based end of it that I don't have my facts correct and he has the correct facts. That was a real problem, not that we're politically different. We also just agreed to keep that stuff on the low, keep it out of our conversations, and really try to speak from our heart instead of from, "I'm getting a fact wrong," so yes.

Brian Lehrer: Got you. Well, Tim, if we were helpful, that's so great.

Tim: No, you were helpful, yes.

Brian Lehrer: Good luck with you and your friend. Hang in there. Lots of health.

Tim: Brian and Jenée, thank you so much for the advice. Excellent, excellent. Yes, do this every month. I would love it.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: Okay, Jenée.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Now, you're going to have another whole part-time job aside from your real job.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: I'll take it.

Brian Lehrer: We will at least come back for Letter Writer No. 2 for today right after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, partnering today and three Thursdays in August with Slate's Dear Prudence advice columnist and podcast host, Jenée Desmond-Harris. All right, on to Advice Letter No. 2 for this week that one of our listeners wrote in when we invited submissions for this series. Again, we'll take calls with your advice for the writer. Again, we have recorded the text. Here it is.

Letter Writer 2: Dear Prudence, a few months after my mom left my dad in February 2020, I became suspicious of her relationship with her "best friend." I did some light snooping on her phone and found concrete evidence that they were in a relationship. After struggling with this information for a few more months, I confronted my mom and she told me her plan was to keep the relationship a secret for the foreseeable future and to please keep my mouth shut.

It's been about two years since then and I've had a few conversations with my mom where she's indicated an interest in telling her sisters and parents as well as my younger siblings. Her partner is very anxious about the whole situation and refuses to entertain the idea. My mom has said by the time my sister graduates high school next year, she will have to figure out a solution with her partner, but I don't believe she will.

She's extremely conflict-avoidant, has told me other things she has planned to change about our relationship that never came to fruition, and it is all very reminiscent of my parents' divorce where she bottled up her concerns for years, and then abruptly left my dad. I've been quite frustrated at having to keep this secret, especially for my siblings who I feel deserve to know. I routinely entertain plans to blow her cover. I'm finally more and more confident in deciding to hold my mom to her statement that she will find a solution by the time my sister graduates in the spring.

If she doesn't tell everyone by then, I will, but I'm not sure if this is the right call. Should I do something even sooner? Every day I wait, I hear suspicions from more and more people about the nature of their relationship, including my dad and sister who seemed to have bonded over speculating. On the other hand, I've kept this secret for so long. Am I really helping anything by forcing her hand? What should I do?

Brian Lehrer: That letter seeking advice from Slate's Dear Prudence Jenée Desmond-Harris. Me and listeners will keep crowdsourcing the advice. What advice would you give this letter writer? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. "I've kept the secret for this long. Am I really helping anything by forcing her hand? What should I do?" The explicit questions at the end of the letter. Jenée, I'll start this time.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Sure.

Brian Lehrer: My impulse here is to say, "Keep the secret." I tend to think it's not your place to break it open. You haven't argued that it serves any real purpose for you to be exposing your mother's secret relationship. I can go into more detail. Jenée, where are you on this?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: We just keep being on the same page. I feel like if I'm ever on vacation, you can just write my column for me because we agree on everything. Completely agree that the right thing to do is to keep this private. Just explaining a little bit about how I'm reading the letter, I'm making an assumption that the best friend here is another woman, the way it's in quotes in the letter. I wonder if part of the intensity around this dilemma is that it's a same-sex relationship. If that's the case, I just want to state really clearly that I believe in the rule that you should never out anyone else. I don't care if it's your friend or your ex or your mother. That's just not something you should do.

Brian Lehrer: I'll give you an exception to that in my opinion later, but go ahead.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Okay, I'll be ready to hear it. Yes, in general, I like to look at letters through the lens of who's getting hurt here. In this case, when it comes to the mother having a relationship that she's not yet ready to share, I don't see anyone being harmed by that. I think we can let it sit the way it is.

Brian Lehrer: My exception, I realized this is a tangent to the topic at hand, but my exception to when it's okay to out people is when they are politicians who were-

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Oh, absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: -supporting anti-gay legislation.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: I'm with you 100%.

Brian Lehrer: That's a political thing. That's not a personal relationship thing.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Right.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners again, do you want to weigh in? Again, who wants to disagree? I'm glad Kylie from Northern Virginia called in on the last one and had a different point of view from the one that Jenée and I happen to agree on. How about in this case? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. Without getting lost in the binary of, "Should I? shouldn't I?" any other advice to help this person? 212-433-9692.

I guess most important to me here is the well-being of the other family members, especially the siblings who are still kids. I'm not seeing right away that the other family members are harmed by not knowing. You went first to the right of a person to not out themselves as a lesbian until they're ready. To me, the younger siblings who were just kids must already be going through stuff from the parents separating, which was only two years ago. Why be in a rush to push this next little bombshell about their mom on their psyches even if it's not a same-sex relationship?

I'm not sure what the point is other than an abstract concept of transparency for transparency's sake. The letter writer said they have a right to know, but who exactly would be helped in some way by blowing up this secret? Maybe you do think there's a price to pay by extending the secret until the mom feels it's the best time to disclose. From the letter, I'm not seeing it. That's a big missing piece for me.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: The letter writer says that people have suspicions and they're talking about them a lot. I'll even take it a step further and say everyone already knows. On some level, people really do know what's going on even if it hasn't been verified and confirmed or admitted to by your mother. I think everyone can see the behavior. There's enough data for them to go on that they're gossiping about it. I don't want the letter writer to feel that he or she is the keeper of this secret and has this huge burden because it sounds like it's not a secret that's being kept particularly well.

Brian Lehrer: Ellie in Long Branch may have a different take. Hi, Ellie. You're on WNYC.

Ellie: Hi. Thank you so much for this show. I love it and I want it every week too. I do think that the kid should not out her mom, whether it's a man or a woman or whoever it is. That's her mom's business to tell in her mom's way. Her mom is putting a shoulder and a burden and something on the shoulder of her child. Her child is forced into silence in a way and shameful because she can't reveal everything she knows to her other siblings. It's affecting comradery between the family members.

It's also putting her child in a precarious position after other members of the family have left and divorced. I think her mom needs to clean up her act and her child needs to come clean with her mom and just say, "Hey, Mom, I'm really uncomfortable. You need to tell the other parts of the family what's going on. I don't want to hold the secret anymore. It's not good for me and you. It's weird. It's causing me to feel weird. I frankly think the family will love you anyway, and I will, but I'm not comfortable holding your secret."

Brian Lehrer: You feel the demand that's being placed on the letter writer to hold the secret is unfair. I think we have a caller who's going to be very much on the opposite side of that. I'm going to let Ed in Maplewood have a go at that before Jenée and I do. Ed, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Ed: Hi, everyone. I think the idea of you learn something about a family member that no one else knows and that the family member doesn't want to make public, you just keep it a secret. You have no right to out anybody to anybody, including to themselves. For this person to go to her mother and say, "I know this about you. I found this out." No, the mother's privacy needs to be respected here. I think that's as big an offense as outing her to anyone else. You can't even out her to yourself. You can't tell that you knew that secret.

Brian Lehrer: Ed, Thank you very much. Jenée, I don't know about you, but Ed goes to what I actually think is the worst behavior described in the whole letter, which might be the fact that the writer snooped on her mother's phone.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: I was about to say the same thing.

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles] Go ahead.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: I think a lot about smartphones and just the opportunities they present for snooping and how that's changed so many of our relationships. So many of the letters I respond to just could not have been written 30 years ago because we didn't have the technology for invading other people's privacy like this. I agree that it would be really problematic for a parent to tell one child, "I'm having the secret relationship. You're the only one who knows. Don't tell anyone." That would be a really unfair burden. In this case, the information was obtained through snooping. I would say to the letter writer, if you didn't want to be burdened by this information, why did you guess your mother's passcode and go through her phone?

Brian Lehrer: How would you feel if, let's say, your younger siblings snooped around about your love life on your phone?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Right. You were asking to have a secret when you made that choice.

Brian Lehrer: Andrea in Wyckoff may have a different track to add on. Andrea, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Andrea: Hi. Good morning. When I heard the letter, what I heard was her hurting and that her mother broadsided her dad and apparently has broadsided her as well, and maybe not for the first time. I hear somebody who's upset, angry, hurt, and I think that might be where she's coming from. Then she said that her father and sister have bonded over this, but I didn't hear that she's had any bonding with her dad. I think that's all a part of her angst and why she is looking to do something to change her mother.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Andrea, thank you.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: It's a really great insight.

Brian Lehrer: The implication is that she's supportive of her dad after the breakup and critical of her mom because she also did write about how the mother bottled up her concerns about the marriage for years and then abruptly left the dad. I guess she blames her mother for that to some degree, right?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: It sounds like it. I think, at the very least, we can say the letter writer is really sensitive about secrets and shame and a lack of openness. This is definitely bringing up those issues that have been a part of life in this household for a long time. I think it's worth talking to the mother about that. The issue isn't the relationship that's happening right now as much as it is, the years leading up to the divorce with Dad and all the secrecy were really hard, and the secrecy is triggering that for me again.

Brian Lehrer: I guess she wonders if her parents might still be together if the mom had allowed some of her conflict to play itself out in the marriage to maybe get resolved. I see why she wouldn't want to bolster that behavior pattern in her mom, which she sees recurring here. I think that's still different from keeping something for the kids' own sake if that's her motivation. Here's another-- Oh, a caller hung up. Oh, a caller was going to talk about other people who she knows who snoop on each other's phones all the time.

[laughter]

Brian Lehrer: That caller went away. Let's try Pat in Peekskill. You're on WNYC. Hi, Pat.

Pat: Hi, Brian. I think if the writer could be very sensitive to what the mother and the girlfriend are going through and reassuring at the same time using her own iMessages as you referred to before of how she feels, a few callers have alluded to this that she is feeling very burdened by this. At the same time, she's aware of how burdened her mother and the girlfriend must be and how fearful they must feel.

The fact if the writer could say this, could have a meeting with both of them if they would allow that, that could be helpful so that the writer could say just how concerned she is for both of them and really feeling what they must be going through and the anxiety this is causing all around. It's not something that if they're going through that kind of feeling. It's not something that others in the family aren't going to pick up and be affected by, perhaps even in a worst way than just letting it go on. I think the importance is to really acknowledge the feelings, the anguish that these two friends must be going through.

Brian Lehrer: Pat, thank you very much. I think that's deep. Sort of related to that, I guess I'll also acknowledge that according to the letter, the mom isn't keeping the relationship secret for the sake of the kids but rather for the sake of the partner who's anxious about disclosing. I would want to know more about that and what the partner's concerns are about what the mom telling the kids would do. You raised the possibility at the beginning that this is a lesbian relationship with who the mom describes as her best friend or the letter writer describes as the mom's best friend, and that maybe the mom is unwilling so far to come out as gay, but we don't know that.

Still, maybe it's a question that the letter writer could ask her mom that is not about being gay, but just about how much she's doing it so the partner doesn't have to confront something and just make sure that the mom thinks the secret is in the kid's interest. I hope the mom is talking to her partner about, "When the time is right, you'll need to try to have a good relationship with the kids." Again, so far, to my eye, the writer hasn't made the case that it's harmful to them. There is something going on if the mom is keeping it from the kids to protect the partner. That tension's going to have to break at some point.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: Joy in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Similar situation, Joy?

Joy: Hi, Brian. Yes. My sister is in a relationship with a married woman. A woman who's married to a man. They are keeping it a secret. It's really frustrating to me because one of the kids from the original marriage, the man and the woman, they have a daughter who just recently came out as bisexual, queer, whatever. It's really frustrating to me that they've kept the secret of this secret relationship for a long time. It feels to me like it would've been easier for this child going through the questioning of her sexuality like if she had known that her mother and her auntie were lovers.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, it sounds like this is hard for you.

Joy: Yes. Oh no, it really is. It's been really hard.

Brian Lehrer: How far would you roll back the clock to change what if you could?

Joy: Oh, my gosh. I don't know. It's been really tough. I haven't had much of a relationship with them because of the secrecy, so I don't know. It's been really hard because I would like to have a relationship with them and the secrecy makes it hard for me to be involved with their lives.

Brian Lehrer: Joy, thank you. Jenée, anything on Joy's story?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: It is a similar situation, but with a really interesting wrinkle that I think makes it much more complicated than the letter we had in our inbox. I can absolutely understand her frustration at looking at this young girl who could use validation and a role model and isn't getting it because of the secrecy. I just hope the caller can be a really good source of support for that child even if the mother isn't able to show up at this time.

Brian Lehrer: All right. You're ready for a little tangent? Here's Daniel in Harlem, who I think wants to disagree with my take that I think you agreed with Jenée that it's okay to out a gay politician with his sexual orientation if he or she is publicly supporting anti-gay legislation. Daniel in Harlem, you're on WNYC, and do you think that's not okay?

Daniel: Yes, thanks for taking my call. I'm a huge believer in gay rights, but I disagree for, I guess, three reasons. The first is, I don't think it's relevant whether the speaker's gay. I think the position the speaker's taking should be evaluated on the merits, not based on whether the speaker's gay or straight. Second, I think that kind of rule would show the speech of gay people. They should actually have as much right to advocate for dumb positions as anybody else. Third, I think it's often not objective whether a policy is anti-gay. Somebody may think that a certain book is too lurid for kids and doesn't think they should be sharing those with kids, but it may not be objective what's an anti-gay policy.

Brian Lehrer: That kind of thing could be a genuine disagreement on the facts or what's right. What if, Daniel, let's say, hypothetically, you have a closeted gay politician who's going around giving speeches about how it should be okay for employers to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, that kind of hypocrisy wouldn't deserve him being outed?

Daniel: I don't think so because I think that should be made on its merits. I think it's a dumb position to take and it's dumb because the merits aren't there, not because if the speaker's gay.

Brian Lehrer: Daniel, thank you very much. Jenée, we get a 15-second addendum from you on this and then we're out of time.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: The part of what he said that resonated with me is that anti-gay positions should be criticized and should be embarrassing because they're bigoted and bad regardless of who has them. I definitely understand the caller making that point.

Brian Lehrer: That's part two of our August, Thursday series with Jenée Desmond-Harris, aka, Dear Prudence from Slate. One more round is coming not next Thursday, but it'll be two Thursdays from today. Thanks, Jenée. You're awesome.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Thanks so much. See you soon.

Brian Lehrer: Meanwhile, listen to the Dear Prudence podcast and read the Dear Prudence column at slate.com. That's our show for today produced by Mary Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, Esperanza Rosenbaum, and Briana Brady. Today, Zach Gottehrer-Cohen produces our daily politics podcast. It was Juliana Fonda back at the audio controls. I'm Brian Lehrer. Stay tuned for All Of It.

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