[music]

Announcer: Listener-supported WNYC Studios.

[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Now, we conclude our three-part August advice series with Jenée Desmond-Harris, aka Dear Prudence, from the column and podcast of that name on Slate. We've done two previous segments here this month if you didn't know, and one where I was the guest on her Dear Prudence podcast.

We've got two more letters for today from people who wrote in asking for help with their dilemmas. Again, listeners, get ready to call in as the advice will come not just from Jenée and me but also from you on the phones once you hear the question. Jenée, people don't seem to hate this. We've got some very enthusiastic feedback. Thanks for your warmth and insights so far and welcome back to WNYC.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: -for having me and thank you for coming on the podcast. I hope people will go find it and listen because you gave some really great advice and we had a little more time on there too.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe people are happy to take a little break from politics after hearing about things like the latest hurricane or Donald Trump celebrating his mugshot. Listeners, one thing you don't know, if you don't already listen to the Dear Prudence podcast, is that they start off every time with one piece of unsolicited advice from their guests, not in response to a letter.

When I was on, I gave some unsolicited advice about dealing with close friends and relatives who you can't seem to talk to anymore because their politics infuriate you so much. That comes up on this show a lot. For today, Jenée has agreed that turnabout is fair play. Since she's the guest, she has come prepared with one piece of unsolicited advice to kick us off today. This is unrehearsed, so I don't know what her unsolicited advice is going to be. Jenée, do you want to reveal and dive in?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Sure. I write what I think is a pretty modern, fun advice column, but I'm actually going to say something that sounds like really basic, 101, old-school, etiquette advice. I think people don't adhere to it enough anymore, and that is send a thank-you note. Now, not because you have to, not because I believe in being old-fashioned but because, number one, it's actually a really great way to nudge yourself into feeling gratitude, which science tells us can benefit our mental health.

Number two, I think in a world where so many of the letters I receive come from people who are struggling with maintaining friendships and are feeling really disconnected from others or just not appreciated and seen, I really think a little thank-you note popped in the mail could just be a small tool to reinforce our connections with others and deepen relationships. A lot of people really need that right now.

Brian Lehrer: I love that. We've done whole segments on this show about gratitude. I think that's really, really good. In fact, you gave me an idea for a response to one of the letters that's going to come up in this segment, but we will hold that. Thank you for that. I'm curious. What was the experience like for you of coming up with unsolicited advice? Because when I had to do it, I got stuck for a while on how vast the world is. [chuckles] Should my advice be about parenting or politics? Should it be about dating or housing or who knows what? I had just heard Joel Anderson on your show whose unsolicited advice was not to give unsolicited advice. [laughs]

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Great.

Brian Lehrer: I thought, "That's so meta. Maybe I should give advice about giving advice too." What was that like for you to have that blank slate?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Well, a lot of things popped into my head. At the top of the list were a lot of the issues that I see popping up in so many letters. The other thing I was thinking about sharing was something very specific to weddings. We get tons and tons of letters about weddings for Dear Prudence. That was if someone asks you to be a bridesmaid or a groomsman in their wedding, seriously consider saying, "No."

It's a huge financial and time commitment. It strains relationships. People need to feel like they can save that $1,000, $2,000, whatever it ends up costing, and save their friendships instead of signing up for something that often spiraled out of control. Anyway, so I thought about some very specific things like that that come up often in the column.

Brian Lehrer: Although saying, "No," if you're asked to be a bridesmaid or a groomsman, that's going to stress the relationship.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: I have a whole script for it. I've written it before. It's like, "I care about you so much. I don't think that in terms of my time and my finances, I can show up and make your day as special as it needs to be. I want to celebrate with you. I want to take you out for a drink. I'll be the first one on the dance floor at your wedding, but I don't want to disappoint you by taking on this job that I can't handle right now."

Brian Lehrer: There you go. It's a bonus segment because we got two pieces of unsolicited advice out of Jenée. Now, we go on to the two letters for today from people who wrote in with their dilemmas. Our producer, Amina Srna, voiced the letters for today. Here is letter number one.

Amina Srna: Dear Prudence, my 50-year-old husband has been spending extra time like hours a day, days per week with a barely 18-year-old girl. No familial relation, but "they have a common interest," and I am "jealous and how dare you judge me." However, his interest in this girl succeed his interest in spending time with his own 16 and 19-year-old daughters. Furthermore, this barely 18-year-old girl and he are constantly texting each other. Sometimes until 2:00 AM.

He's texting her from work. He's texting her from our family vacation, stupid stuff, Instagram reels, songs, YouTube videos, but constant texts. Flirting, not sexual, but flirting, and the fact that he's obviously always thinking about her because he's always texting her. "What's your middle name?" he asks. Not the half of it. They can go on for three hours straight with the texting. He's always inviting her on horse rides that are an all-day event.

One to two hours drive one way, then three to four-hour ride. Sometimes at night. "I lost both the backs of my earrings when we were resting," she texts. He takes selfies of him and her on their horse rides. Don't recall selfies of he and his own daughters. Very rare. He buys her energy drinks and other things. "I've got something for you," him. "Oh, what might that be," her. I'm disgusted. My girls have no idea. They just know he's never here. He hardly puts his phone down on the counter to charge.

He's taking it to bed with him, which he's always been "against" and has always given me grief about my phone as my alarm. Nothing new for me but so new to him. I would hate to think after 20 years of marriage and two beautiful girls that I'm now living with a complete pervert. I don't know what to do. I've found out that he's also looking at 18-year-old girls on Instagram. Gross. I'm disgusted. I can hardly even look at him, especially in the eyes.

Brian Lehrer: All right, our first letter of advice for today for Jenée Desmond-Harris and me. Jenée, who writes the Dear Prudence column and hosts the Dear Prudence podcast on Slate. Wow, this one is really extremely creepy, may I start by saying. Listeners, again today, we will crowdsource the advice with you all. Who has advice for that letter writer? Call us at 212-433-WNYC. Has anyone listening ever been in a situation anything like this or know of one that can be the basis situation that maybe you've come upon like this at all for some advice from you or offer any advice even if not? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Jenée, before we try to offer any concrete help, let me just say that I am creeped out by what this wife and mother describes, but also heavy doubt. This is a serious threat, it seems to me, to a marriage and family. Maybe more so than any letter that we've dealt with. Do you even have a guess as to what the nature of this relationship really is between her 50-year-old spouse and this 18-year-old girl? Of course, start anywhere you want.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: I think my first reaction was the same as yours, which was basically, "Eww." I do think it's helpful before we start giving advice to just really unpack all the different layers of the problem here. I just wanted to acknowledge just how deeply upsetting this must be for the letter writer and how it feels distressing in a way that has, I would say, at least four layers, right? First, there's what looks like emotional infidelity going on. That's a betrayal violation of their marital vows. Second, there's this creepiness factor, right?

Brian Lehrer: That's a good way to put it, by the way, emotional infidelity. That's a wonderful way to put it.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Yes, definitely.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, sorry.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Possibly more. Second, there's the creepiness factor, obviously, of a 50-year-old having this kind of interaction with an 18-year-old. It doesn't matter that she's technically legal. You can always debate what kind of an age gap is okay. I think this is objectively gross. Third, there's the fact that you really want to hold the person you're married to in high regard. When you lose that respect for them, I think a relationship can feel like it's just really falling apart.

Her husband's behavior must have made the letter writer's respect for him just completely tanked. I can only imagine. Fourth, I think when something like this comes up, it makes you question whether you really knew the person you're married to and what else you don't know. Fifth, of course, there's concern for the young woman, who seems really vulnerable here, so that's really upsetting. I just wanted to lay all those on the table and just acknowledge, like you said, how heavy this is for the letter writer.

Brian Lehrer: The little writer says the relationship is not sexual and maybe it is only what you just said emotional infidelity. I hope it's not sexual, but the writer says her husband is also looking at other 18-year-old girls on Instagram. It sounds like maybe it's sexual in some way for him even if he and the teenager aren't actually touching.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Yes, or he wants it to go in that direction.

Brian Lehrer: I guess I was looking for a potential benign explanation and I thought, "Well, maybe it's really not sexual because he doesn't seem to be hiding the relationship from his wife." The letter writer said, their own teenage daughters don't even realize this is happening. I wondered about a sort of benign scenario with the daughters like many teenagers want nothing to do with their parents. He's finding that parental satisfaction somewhere else. Honestly, I couldn't talk myself into that position.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: [chuckles] I was about to say, you're much more generous than I am. That didn't even cross my mind. I think the best outcome I could imagine would be the letter writer really sitting him down and bringing her concerns to him, and him having an aha moment and saying, "Oh, my God, you're right. This has spiraled out of control. I think I may be having a midlife crisis. Her attention was doing something for my self-esteem. When I hear the way you're describing it, I'm grossing myself out and I realize how troubling it is." I don't think that's likely, but that's the only productive way out of this that I can imagine.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and you use one of the phrases that I was thinking about too, "midlife crisis," because my first layer of advice would really be for him. It's like, "Dude, you are having a Category 5 midlife crisis now that you're 50 years old, and you have to look yourself in the eye right now and decide whether you want to save your marriage because this is not okay," but he didn't ask us for advice, she did.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Right. It's always important to remember who's actually asking, right?

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Before we go to some calls, which are coming in at a great rate, I've learned during the series, Jenée, and you always do this, so you're way ahead of me on this, but I think I've learned during the series to always come back to the actual advice question the writer was asking, not just comment on the situation. In this case, the question breaks my heart because it's a desperate, generalized cris de coeur. The question is simply, "I don't know what to do." It's an extreme situation and it seems existential to the marriage. She might have to threaten to leave him to shock him back into reality.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Absolutely. She might need to seriously think about whether she wants to be with him.

Brian Lehrer: I think Liz in Newton, New Jersey is going to go in that direction too. Liz, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Liz: Thank you. Thank you. I absolutely echo what has already been said about it, but I also would say and suggest that, seriously, she consider separation now, and also a little honesty with her girls. Because if the young girls discover, and nothing ever stays hidden, the girls discover and the mother is almost aiding and abetting and affirming that his behavior is okay because she's done nothing and said nothing so far, I would hesitate to see what the girls are learning, watching the mother accept this from the husband. It's teaching them a bad thing to me.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, thank you. Although it sounds to me, Jenée, from the letter like the mother, the wife, has broached this multiple times with the husband, and that he knows she's upset. The letter also says that the girls, the 16-year-old and 19-year-old daughters, don't have a clue and that complicates it, right?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: If there weren't kids in the picture, it would be easier to advise, "Kick the guy out."

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Right. Very wise words from that caller. Nothing ever stays hidden. I think that's so true. One pattern I've seen in answering hundreds and hundreds of letters is that secrets come out and the girls will eventually find out about this. Hopefully, they'll also find out that their mom stood up for herself and really pushed back, but I think the caller was so smart and so thoughtful to point out the potential impact on them if they know that their mom tolerated this and didn't put a stop to it or ask for a separation at some point.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a listener calling in from Denver, who says they've had some kind of experience like this. Hi, you're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling in.

Caller 1: Been there, done that, and she should terminate this relationship as soon as possible. He's not going to get any better. This is probably been long-standing. Check with some therapists and psychotherapists, but this has probably been a long-standing behavior of his for quite some time. Yes, mom should definitely warn the daughters up front. As far as the girls not knowing, look at the movie, watch the movie, Molly's Game. Kevin Costner played her dad and Jessica Chastain played Molly. They know. Everybody know. The girls probably suppress it, but there's something under the skin that they know something is wrong.

Brian Lehrer: Is there anything that you--

Caller 1: Say goodbye.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your call. I appreciate it. Do you think, Jenée, that she should tell the daughters what's happening? I thought about that question. I was torn between trying to protect the kids from trauma from learning what their father has been doing if they really are oblivious to it, and either warning them as that caller said or enlisting them to appeal to him.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: We talked about how deeply upset the letter writer feels. I don't think it's a good idea to drag the daughters into a situation where their mom feels so vulnerable and weak right now. I think that there's a place for transparency, but it should happen after some action has been taken. The daughters should know perhaps after the situation is resolved, or if they do decide to separate or divorce, they should know why that happened. I don't think the letter writer coming to them the way she's come to us saying, "I'm disgusted. I'm so upset. I don't know what to do. I can't believe this," is something that she should put on them as teenagers.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take another call. Here's Rob in Dallas. You're on WNYC. Hi, Rob. Rob, are you there?

Rob: Hey.

Brian Lehrer: Hi.

Rob: Hey, sorry about that. I got cut off with the locations. I didn't know if I was the right Rob. It actually sounds like based on the letter that this is like textbook sugaring. I didn't know if that phrase ever came up or if you guys know about that, but it's basically like a sugar-daddy service, but there's whole websites dedicated to matching individual, young people who are struggling to pay for things with people in their 40s and 50s, who are usually single, so it's not usually an infidelity. It sounds pretty textbook sugaring to me.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Rob, thank you very much. I don't know that we have an indication from the letter that he's paying for anything substantial like housing or college.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Yes, energy drinks.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, energy drinks, but maybe even that. She likes the money that's being spent on her for perks.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Right, it's possible. I didn't get that feeling from it. It seems like they're actually spending a lot of quality time together. The horseback riding, the wrestling, a lot of back and forth over text and conversation. To me, it sounds like he believes he actually has a connection with this young woman, which honestly makes it a little bit even more disturbing.

Brian Lehrer: Elizabeth in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: Hi. I can't believe I'm calling in about this because it's really hard to talk about. As I told your screener, I've been the daughter in this scenario. It was an awful time. That was about a year that my dad, he was hanging-- This was all way pre-Instagram and smartphones and texting. I will say, I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but the young woman he was hanging out with was I think more like 23. 22 or 23.

It's funny. I was about to refer to it as Monica Lewinsky age. I guess the one thing I want to say is I just heard someone use the phrase "textbook" with a term I didn't know like, I don't know, sugar daddy or something. For me, it really does just seem like textbook midlife crisis. I guess I want to say, with my own parents, it was like my dad just woke up after a year. It was awful and I somehow knew. I was younger. I wasn't a teenager. I was maybe more like 10. I'm not sure, but I definitely was aware of it.

It was like my dad was into art and she was too. We were in New Jersey and they'd go to museums together. It was really traumatic and awful. I also want to say, it ended. I even asked him about it once when I was older. We had a very brief exchange about it. Also, two of my best friends, I know something similar happened. It was similar where it was this emotional-- In their case, I don't know if it was physical, sexual affair their fathers had right smack at 50, but the affairs did end and the marriages did last.

Now, these are all marriages where-- I'm mid-age. Ironically, I'm 50 myself right now as I'm calling, so our parents are all retired. I want to be clear. I'm not at all saying, "Oh, this is fine," or "This just happened," or some version of middle-aged midlife crisis, boys will be boys. Well, I'm actually saying, I don't think anything the wife says to him is going to make a difference. I think he's either going to wake up from it or he's going to leave.

Brian Lehrer: Even though your perspective on it is really important and really relevant and really interesting, do you feel like there's no actual advice that you could give the letter writer?

Elizabeth: I want to say this the right way. I think it's like "hang in there" advice. I'm not saying it like, "Oh, hang in there. It'll be fine." I think it might feel almost the case where she needs to articulate everything that-- sorry, I'm forgetting her name, but your Dear Prudence person said about the four or five layers of wrong about this. She needs to say that to him but, honestly, probably more for herself to articulate that and to have done everything she can to explain that clearly to him. I don't know.

With my own marriage, which thankfully hasn't had any of these issues, sometimes it's almost like, "Okay, how much time am I willing to give this person to get it or, in this case, I just think when you're-- I told your screener and, again, I don't want to take too much time, that I also have been the 23-year-old who was in an emotional affair with someone at midlife who was in a marriage. What I got was a lot of-- I don't know. It's everything you feel when you're in love even if you're not consummating anything physically. I don't know. It's like either-

Brian Lehrer: You got a lot of validation?

Elizabeth: -anything he says is going to-- Oh yes. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: Elizabeth, thank you.

Elizabeth: That's it. All right.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Wow. What an important call to this conversation, Jenée. I wonder if one thing we can take from it is that maybe it's helpful not to shame him so much. Everybody here might feel shame. The wife might feel shame that the husband is finding whatever kind of satisfaction outside. The 18-year-old might feel shame. I wonder if it's a way to get him to end this phase of his life as happened with Elizabeth's father too rather than, "I'm going to leave you if you don't stop this." Somehow if he won't go to therapy, which, obviously, he needs to go to therapy, but you can't just say, "You have to go to therapy," to somehow let him more softly confront what's going on with him.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: I wish we could have talked to Elizabeth more because I was so interested to know how her mother handled this emotionally, but I do agree that it would take a therapist walking the couple through a narrative about this to land on anything other than, "This guy is a pervert whose judgment I don't respect and whose behavior disgusts me," which I think is something, again, that would be so hard to come back from. I'd love to know how her mom came back from it. I think that if this letter writer is going to recover and if the way she sees her husband is going to recover, a professional will absolutely have to be involved.

Brian Lehrer: I was thinking if he won't go into therapy. I feel like half the letters that we've seen since we've been doing this together say the other person in the relationship, whether this is a marriage or whatever other relationship, "The person they're having the problem with won't go into therapy with me."

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Maybe that's where separation creates an incentive for him because this thing with the 18-year-old is going to fizzle out. She's going to get bored with him. She's going to find a boyfriend her own age or she's going to go to college and then he's going to be left looking around wondering how to get his life back.

Brian Lehrer: One last piece of advice before we move on to our next letter might be if the wife isn't already in therapy, it might be good for her, even though he's the one who really has to change from what we know, but that she's obviously dealing with emotional heaviness here. Maybe it would be good to have a therapist as an ally to help her process and help her more deeply than we can give in this radio segment, advise her what to do over multiple sessions.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Exactly. Therapy doesn't mean you're the person at fault or you're the one with the problem. It means you want tools to handle something that may or may not be your fault.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Hopefully, that was a little bit helpful to the letter writer in a very difficult situation. We'll move on to letter number two right after this.

[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, on to the final letter in our summer advice series with Jenée Desmond-Harris, aka, Dear Prudence, from Slate's advice column and podcast called Dear Prudence. Here is a recording of the text of our final letter.

Amina Srna: Dear Prudence, I've been dating a great man, Ethan, for nearly two years. An acquaintance of mine introduced us on a whim and we hit it off. We have a great relationship with only one area of tension, his friends. He has a very close group of friends he's known for over a decade, including the person who introduced. These friends see each other infrequently in person but talk on the phone regularly and are very enthusiastic when they do see each other. When we've spent time at group dinners or parties, they all jump in to catch up like old friends while I awkwardly watch.

I'm also 10 years younger than all of these friends, which means I'm not in the stage of life that many of them are. Additionally, these in-person encounters tend to become alcohol-soaked celebrations. Ethan does not drink at all and I drink very little and avoid doing so in situations where I'm already uncomfortable. I now expect these sorts of occasions to feel draining and frustrating for me. I feel alienated and anxious when I think about having to engage with a bunch of people who make me feel like a fly on the wall. How do I push past feeling like an outsider when I'll never be able to overcome the 15 previous years of friendship and comradery that I lack?

Brian Lehrer: Our final letter asking for advice in this little summer team-up with Jenée Desmond-Harris from Slate. One last time, listeners, you are part of the advice squad too. What you got for this writer? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. Anyone relating to this, similar to something you've been through, or anyone with a potentially helpful thought? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Jenée, unlike our first letter writer today, I'm pretty optimistic about this letter writer's prospects for solving this problem without too much drama. I could see a few positive scenarios. Do you want to start though?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Yes, I'm actually optimistic too. I couldn't help but wonder if the two of us were going to have the same idea here because this is how every journalist I know manages social awkwardness. Instead of thinking about fitting in with a whole group or being charming or making small talk with everyone, you sit at that dinner, you turn to the person next to you, and you pretend you're interviewing them. You simply ask them question after question about their life.

This gives you something to talk about and it makes the person like you. It actually does allow you to get to know and appreciate them. I think that'd be a great tactic for this letter writer to use. I've also received a bunch of letters with this theme lately, which is, "How do I fit in with this group?" I always go back to, "Don't try to become a member of the whole group. Try to get to know one person whether that's the person you feel the best connection with or, again, the person who's just sitting next to you at dinner."

Brian Lehrer: What do you think about offering some gesture to the group when you get together? Maybe you're doing this already, letter writer, but bake a cake or bring a bag of little goodies one time. That could just draw people to pay attention to you even though they should be doing that on their own already. Just some sort of social lubricant.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: I love that idea. Give them something to talk about.

Brian Lehrer: Another thought that I had. This isn't advice exactly, I guess, but time itself might solve this problem, right? You've been together just two years. If the relationship lasts, you'll just be part of that group eventually, at least maybe. Do you think that's too optimistic?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: I think it's possible. I also think it's possible that we're in a situation where the group is saying, "Oh, this guy, he's dating this woman 10 years younger. It's not serious. He just likes younger women. She's at a different place in life. Maybe she's beautiful and that's why he's with her, but she's not really part of our social scene." I think that's one possibility. In which case, I would say, maybe ask your boyfriend to help facilitate more closeness between you and his friends. He can be the moderator of the conversation who helps people get to know more about you than you're just the 10-years-younger girlfriend who keeps showing up and not talking.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, at least we don't think he's a predator like the other guy might be.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Right.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe ask the boyfriend to do a few concrete things. I guess this is exactly the same piece of advice that you just gave because I had this one too. A few concrete things that you could even plan together beforehand to include you in the conversation. Insert, "What do you think about that?" as a conscious question a few times and grease the social wheels like that.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Yes, I think he definitely has a responsibility here. I'm surprised there was not a lot in the letter about conversations that she's had with him or what role he's playing in all of this. I would also say, most relationships don't last forever. I'm not saying you won't marry this guy, but it probably won't happen. Also, social events are meant to be enjoyed. If it's really not working and these events are not a huge part of the fabric of your lives together, maybe skip every other one.

Maybe this just isn't the right context for you to be bonding with your boyfriend. You don't need to be there every time he's at a big group birthday dinner with his friends. I'm sure you have your own friends. Maybe people who you've spent a little less time with since you got into a relationship. Maybe the next time he's getting together with this loud, drunken, really close group, you go and do something else that feels better to you.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Again, we're thinking along the same lines because I was going to say since they get together only infrequently, he could see them on his own. Lots of people have old friends who they get together with without their partners from time to time. If it's infrequent like the letter writer says, maybe you don't need to expend the effort to work your way into this group.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Totally agree.

Brian Lehrer: Let's see what some callers have to say. Mitchell in StuyTown, you're on WNYC. Hi, Mitchell.

Mitchell: Yes. Hi, Brian. I've called a number of times. I so enjoy your show.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Mitchell: Yes, I wanted to just weigh in here for a moment and say, not only am I a therapist and I have been dealing with this kind of issue a lot in my practice over the course of years but also in my own personal life. Wouldn't you know it? In my situation, I'm a good number of years older than the woman I'm with. The same phenomenon arises. I guess I would say two things.

One is if you do want to go to these gatherings, then, yes, the interview technique, so to speak, is a good one, but really bond with one or two of the guys in a way where you can laugh and guffaw a little bit and have fun and be laid back. There's a sense of competition. I think that you want to really neutralize that. That's part of the problem of not feeling good enough, not feeling included, and you can do something about that.

The other little piece of guidance I would give is and I think the therapist just said this, you don't have to go to all of these. Go be with your women friends. That's a great time to do it. You know the guys. You have a sense of their personalities. You can always chit-chat with your boyfriend about them and the time he had and all that afterwards because they're known to you, but you don't have to dwell on it. Sometimes men and women spend, it's going to sound funny, but too much time together. They need to see with their own--

Brian Lehrer: We don't even know from the letter that this friend's group is all men. It doesn't say that. It could be a mixed-gender group. We don't know. Mitchell, I take that point. I'm going to go right on to another caller. Deanna in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Deanna.

Deanna: Hi. I am six years older than my partner, so eight years older than a lot of his friends. I actually don't notice their age difference. One thing to remember is maybe they don't actually see you as younger at all and you feel that way. The other thing is to take the reins. Why don't you offer an activity where you feel confident and you're setting the tone like have them over for pizza night if you like cooking and you're the chef controlling the oven? It might let you change how much alcohol is there and also just make you feel good. They'll get to know you a little bit better.

Brian Lehrer: Deanna, thank you. That's interesting, Jenée. Propose an activity that the couple is comfortable doing, including the letter writer in the couple. They're more on her activity turf.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: I love that idea. I think it's brilliant.

Brian Lehrer: We're coming to the end here of our three-part summer advice series with Jenée Desmond-Harris. I will say you can read her Dear Prudence column or listen to her Dear Prudence podcasts from slate.com. Jenée, as kind of a closing thought, I'll say, I think your job is really hard. [chuckles]

Jenée Desmond-Harris: It is hard. It's fun and hard.

Brian Lehrer: I usually spend a lot of time thinking for the show about local and world affairs, but I've literally found myself staying up at night, worrying about our letter writers' problems, and looking to thread the needle for them just the right way because we never know the whole story from these letters. That's another thing that I feel like I've learned by doing this with you a few times. This might seem like lighter fare than talking about whether our democracy will survive, but giving advice is hard. Any closing thoughts?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: It is hard. I'll say that I've really appreciated this series because answering 20 or 30 letters a week, I have to admit that sometimes I can forget that I'm speaking to real people. Being on your show and hearing back from the listeners with more details about their dilemmas and especially hearing about how the advice actually played out was so rewarding. Such an important reminder to me that I really am talking to real people with real complicated problems.

Brian Lehrer: How do you deal with the unknowns? Because I feel like that's something that we came back to time and time again, the questions that we wanted to ask the letter writer, as follow-ups for the pieces that we couldn't expect them to put necessarily everything in a letter but that we may have felt were important to get a full picture of who should do what.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Right. I always wish that I could call up the letter writers and talk to them for an hour and ask a whole bunch of follow-up questions, and I can't. What I try to do is get to the emotion at the heart of their letters. I don't need to know every single interaction that this last letter writer has had with this group of friends, for example, but I can tell that she feels insecure and uncomfortable. I really try to give advice that just addresses the core problem and not the details.

Brian Lehrer: All right. You want to plug, in 15 seconds, your next Dear Prudence podcast? Who's your guest host on that one or guest partner?

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Sure. My next guest is Orna Guralnik, the therapist and psychoanalyst who hosts Showtime's Couples Therapy, where she talks to real New York City couples about their problems. That's coming out on Friday. She's amazing. Please tune in and listen.

Brian Lehrer: Jenée, thanks. This is great.

Jenée Desmond-Harris: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: That's The Brian Lehrer Show for today produced by Mary Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen produces our daily politics podcast. Megan Ryan is the head of live radio. We had Juliana Fonda and Milton Ruiz at the audio controls today. I'm Brian Lehrer. Stay tuned for All Of It.

[music]

 

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.