Tiffany Hanssen: It's The Brian Lehrer Show. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Tiffany Hanssen filling in for Brian, who is off today. Former Illinois Congressman Adam Kinzinger is with us now. The Republican was first elected to Congress back in 2010 at a time when the Tea Party movement was making its mark on his party and the political culture of the nation as a whole. In 12 years in the House Kinzinger got a first-hand look at the ways in which the populist energy of the Tea Party gave rise to Trump's MAGA extremism.

Once finding himself in disagreement with his party, Kinzinger was one of 10 Republicans who voted to impeach former president Donald Trump after January 6th, and one of only two Republicans, along with Liz Cheney, to serve on the House January 6th Select Committee. He's written about his life and his political career in a new memoir called Renegade: Defending Democracy and Liberty in Our Divided Country. In the book, he examines the transformation in his party. We'll talk about that transformation and also this week's politics news. Adam Kinzinger, welcome to WNYC. So great to have you.

Adam Kinzinger: It's good to be with you. There's always something. It doesn't matter when I call, there's always something to talk about. That's for sure.

Tiffany Hanssen: Always something. Of course, we would love to have our listeners chime in. You can ask a question of Adam Kinzinger, a former Illinois congressman. As I mentioned, he served on the January 6th House Select Committee. He's an Air Force veteran. He's a CNN commentator and now the author of a memoir. 212-433-9692. You can call us. You can also text that number. Yes, a lot of news this week. We'll get to that, Adam, but first, I want to say welcome.

Adam Kinzinger: Thank you. Good to be with you.

Tiffany Hanssen: I want to take a little trip down memory lane back to your election in 2010. I mentioned that was the Tea Party movement emerging. Remind listeners. What was your relationship to the Tea Party at that time?

Adam Kinzinger: What was interesting in 2010, the Tea Party was really-- look, I went to a Tea Party rally that had 9,000, almost 10,000 people at it in a suburb of Chicago, New Lenox, Illinois. It was at that time just people that were wanting to change the way government was working. I certainly would say I would have been a Tea Partier in 2010, but what I think a lot of people need to understand, I talked about this in the book, is just how the Tea Party, and frankly the movement, which ultimately would become the MAGA movement, how it evolved over time. In 2010, we ended up winning in the House of Representatives in a big way, and the vast majority of that Tea Party energy dissipated out.

People weren't going to these rallies anymore. Now they'd start to have 100 or 200 attendance instead of 10,000. The Tea Party then became even more radicalized because it wasn't then just about, "Hey, we want Republicans to take the House." Then it became, quite honestly, a bit of a grift, where people just tried to make money on it and tried to get more and more radical. I broke with the Tea Party fairly early actually, and kind of created a bit of a tense relationship between me, and I guess, what would eventually be later Tea Party, the MAGA movement, and things like that. It was certainly an interesting 12 years in that process.

Tiffany Hanssen: You see the genesis of your, I don't know, departure from some of your colleagues, not really departure, but you know what I'm getting at. You're movement away from some of the other members of your party really happening or starting to happen early on in your career.

Adam Kinzinger: If you think about-- what actually ends up happening is-- well, I get elected and before I actually take office, so that two-month intervening period, the Tea Party or what would be the Tea Party Express, I think, ultimately, ended up doxing members of Congress that weren't going to go to some weird Tea Party orientation that they were having in D.C. I remember flying a military mission because I'm still in the Air Guard, and I landed, and I turned on my phone, and it was blowing up. It was these people that were like, "You need to go to the Tea Party orientation, not the establishment orientation." Starting about then it's like, "Okay. This is going to be a bit of a problem."

When you saw the speaker race recently, you saw 25 people that were voting against Jim Jordan and all that stuff. Those divisions in the party have always existed. They're just now really coming into the forefront. I started to see those divisions really, I'd say, almost day one in Congress.

Tiffany Hanssen: We said we were going to talk about the week in news, so let's do it. In doing so, I'd like to bring a caller in. Let's go to Saul in White Plains. Saul has a question about some news that's happening. Good morning, Saul.

Adam Kinzinger: Hey, Saul.

Saul: Hi. Nice to speak to you, Representative Kinzinger. There's been news about the efforts in Colorado and Michigan to prevent Donald Trump from being on the ballot based on the 14th Amendment, which prevents anyone involved in insurrection from running for office, but I have a question about the 22nd Amendment, which prevents anybody from being elected twice as president.

Now, that amendment prohibits anybody being elected, not somebody who has served. My question is this, if Donald Trump and his MAGA supporters continue to state that he actually won the 2020 election, is there not a basis to say, "Well, unless you deny that you won the election, you are saying you are not eligible to run again under the 22nd amendment." Thank you. I'd be happy to listen to your response offline.

Adam Kinzinger: Well, thanks Saul. Thanks for calling. Look, I think that's a fun rhetorical thing to use against them like, "Look, okay, you've got a choice here. You either have to admit you lost or have to admit that you've been elected twice." Obviously, that wouldn't have any weight in law because he wasn't elected the second time, but I think it would be a fun rhetorical thing to use. On the broader issue on the 14th Amendment, I'm so mixed on this because on the one hand, I do believe that this directly discusses this moment we're in.

Judge Luttig whose become a great friend of mine, he's somebody who spoke to us on the January 6th Committee, he's a big believer that, "Look, if the constitution says something, we have to follow it," and this is the case. I agree. The only thing I'd say is it's better for the country at a time when we're so divided, when we're so at each other's throats, that Donald Trump loses if he ends up getting the nomination. Obviously, I'm working against him getting that nomination, but he has to lose. Unfortunately, it's a pretty close election right now. We still have a lot of time. We have some trials to go through, I think, so that could change, but man, it's a tough moment in this country, I think. That's for sure.

Tiffany Hanssen: Reports are telling us actually, Adam, that we could actually see some decision in the case in Colorado that's deciding whether President Donald Trump is eligible for Colorado's 2024 primary ballot. We may see that, actually, today. I do want to get to some other news about spending. I want to talk as it specifically relates to our most recent speakers of the House. Kevin McCarthy, let's start there.

What's interesting to me is that Mike Johnson, our new speaker, just got a continuing resolution through the House. We avoided a shutdown. Kevin McCarthy did essentially the same thing and lost his job for it, presumably, or at least part of the reason why he did. Talk about that a little bit and why the case is so different. Why we're not seeing calls right now for Mike Johnson to be out of there?

Adam Kinzinger: Well, I think it's very simple. I think they burned, what's the word, all their patience juice. They basically went through this big speaker battle that lasted, I don't know, three weeks or whatever, and they finally came to agree with Mike Johnson as the speaker basically as a lowest common denominator. Most people didn't know who Mike Johnson was. Ironically, or sadly I guess, Mike Johnson was actually really one of the architects of the whole denialism of January 6th. I think you're going to see a lot of people yell about it, complain about it.

This continuing resolution is now pushed. I think there's two different ones pushed into January and February. Once again, we're going to be in this exact moment after Christmas. That'll be a question and at that point, do they try to inflict more damage on him? I just think at this moment there's just not enough time left in the term for, what we shall politely call, the exotics in the caucus, the crazies, I call them, for them to mount another insurrection, if you will, proverbially against the speaker. I think he's probably got a little more leverage to play with.

The thing I'm most passionate about, honestly, is Ukraine aid. I think the fact that Ukraine aid wasn't in this continuing resolution was a big disappointment. I think there's a lot of desire to get an Israeli aid package done, and I think that will be, hopefully, the vehicle by which you can get Ukraine done and a few other things. I don't know when that's going to come, and I frankly don't have a great answer for why the Republican Party has become such a really anti-Ukraine pro-Russia party except that it's more just a culture fight than it is anything that actually makes sense.

Tiffany Hanssen: Well, what does that say for the likelihood that aid will happen?

Adam Kinzinger: Well, it's tough. I remember talking to a lot of my Ukrainian counterparts when I was in. I'm very much a big advocate for supporting Ukraine as you can tell, and I told them like, "Oh, you don't have to worry. There'll be some people that make some noise," and sadly that prediction was incorrect. I think, again, it's probably a 50/50 chance it gets done, but the real question is, will somebody like Mitch McConnell and some of the Republicans in the house that do care about Ukraine, will they hold out when inevitably some Israel aid packages put on the floor, will they hold out and say, "I will not support Israel aid without Ukraine attached."

Now, if people are able to hold out and do that, I think you'll ultimately see Ukraine come to the floor as well as part of a deal. If they just feel too much political pressure of like, "Oh, I've just got to vote for this Israel aid, and let's get this signed into law," then I think it makes it really tough for Ukraine. I'll tell you, Ukraine is the fight of our generation. There's this dark feeling about the country, and we feel like our best days are behind us which is garbage, by the way. It's just that's what politicians like say to get likes and fears and all that stuff and raise money. If we do abandon Ukraine, I think it will be a stain on our country for a long time.

Tiffany Hanssen: Moving to other news. New York Republican George Santos.

Adam Kinzinger: Oh, yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: There was a house ethics report we saw yesterday. Lawmakers aren't really back until after Thanksgiving, so I'm wondering if you think-- Well, first of all, what did you think about the report, and then second of all, do you think we'll see a second effort, actually, probably a third effort to expel the congressman once everybody is back after Thanksgiving?

Adam Kinzinger: Well, let me editorialize for a second and say, what? Come on New York. Come on. [chuckles] Don't put people like this in office. Obviously, I don't think he survives after this term. I think that this report was so bad. Using campaign money, well, not even really using campaign money. People would give him campaign money above the limit and he just would then transfer that to his personal bank account and really made no effort to even launder it, I would say. Spent money on Botox, on Onlyfans. I mean, you just can't get it more cut-and-dry.

If you don't expel George Santos for this, then really no member of Congress should or could be expelled for anything maybe except openly murdering somebody on the floor. I do think that there is enough growing tension and anger that he will be gone probably when that vote comes up again. Again, the only thing working on his behalf right now is just that the majority is so tight. The fact that the majority is so tight, they can't really afford to lose anything. That said, they're not passing anything anyway. It's not like that three-vote majority is much more effective than a two-vote or whatever it is, four and a three. It'll be-- I think they do end up expelling him.

Tiffany Hanssen: Cynicism won't win out, it won't just be a case of we need the reliable vote for next year.

Adam Kinzinger: Well, that's my prediction is that cynicism won't win out on this one. Now, I've been disappointed and wrong a few times this year, I have to admit, where I thought that we couldn't get any lower and we sprinted to a lower position. I'm not going to put all my money on it, but if God came down and said you had to bet on one side or the other, I would certainly bet on he's going to be expelled.

Tiffany Hanssen: Oh, and look at this. Here we go, Adam. A little bit of news, the chairman of the House Ethics Committee announced Friday he has filed a resolution to force a vote on expelling Representative George Santos from Congress, one day after the report, so there we have it. Let's bring some callers in. How about we hear from Carl in Wilton, Connecticut? Good morning. Oh, Carol. Sorry, Carol. Carol in Wilton, Connecticut. Good morning, Carol. What's your question?

Carol: Hi.

Adam Kinzinger: Hey.

Carol: I'm so happy to talk with the representative. The January 6th committee did such a phenomenal job. It was amazing.

Adam Kinzinger: Thanks.

Carol: I'm interested in how working on that committee if it deepened your relationships with some of the Democrats on that committee if it changed your relationships with them. What was that experience like?

Adam Kinzinger: Well, thanks, Carol. Thanks for the call, and yes. I mean, look, the committee was-- [sighs] It sounds cheap to say it, it was historic. It was historic in my mind not just in what we were able to do, not just in the fact that I think the only reason Donald Trump is facing justice is because of the work of the committee. In fact, I don't think that I know that. There's a history there, but never really. I thought the committee was going to fail when I agreed to be on it because think about it, when has a congressional committee actually succeeded at anything? Never. But I knew we had to do it.

I knew it was important work and so it was like God Himself almost authored who was on that committee because each person on that committee had a very unique skill set that was necessary and unlike the others. Liz Cheney was a bulldog. She was the one that really drove this investigation. Benny Thompson was the only guy in the House of Representatives that would be okay with being the chairman of a very important committee and allowing other people to get the spotlight like Liz Cheney and like myself because he knew it was important to have Republicans do that.

Very much deep in my relationships not just with the Democrats on that committee but a lot more because when you're in politics we all behind the scenes get along for the most part because it's a job. It's gotten worse, by the way, but when I was there particularly everybody got along fairly well except for just natural personality conflicts, but every side demonizes the other side a little bit. Even if you don't dehumanize them, it's like, "Okay. Well, the Democrats don't really like the Constitution," or the Democrats say, "Well, the Republicans don't like the Constitution."

Well, what I came to realize is the people on that committee were just as passionate about this country and the survival of democracy as I was. A little funny story. Adam Schiff, he and I have known each other fairly well in Congress even prior to the committee, but when I got there in the committee, I'm an Air Force pilot and I've learned in my job as an Air Force pilot that you have to give people call signs and nicknames and you have to be the first to do it or else you get it.

I immediately called Adam, Adam senior so that I could point out that I'm younger than him, and I was Adam junior. That stuck in the committee, so we always had a good rapport about that. Yes, the relationships were very good and we very much respected each other, and at every now and then we, still have a group text. It gets lit up.

Tiffany Hanssen: Well, hold on, Adam because in the introduction [laughs] to your book you said, "Politicians speak and behave as if Congress itself were a battlefield." You're giving me two different stories here. You're saying that there's on the battlefield, off the battlefield camaraderie, or is-- The discord seems real.

Adam Kinzinger: Oh, yes. Yes. Specifically, on our committee, there wasn't an on and off the battlefield behavior. We all got along. We were all pulling in the same direction. When I was in Congress for the most part when the cameras were off and you weren't in a committee, you could have general get-alongness, I guess, it's not a real word but I'll use it, with Democrats, and then the cameras came on and it became a war.

In the last few years, that's gotten worse. The behind-the-scenes has gotten worse and it's frankly gotten worse even among the Republicans as you can now see it's coming out. They raise money on fear, they raise money on demonizing the other side, and quite honestly, I think it's dangerous for democracy. I think that America's best years are ahead of us. I really do believe that, but I think we have to go through some pretty dark stuff here to get to that point.

Tiffany Hanssen: If you're just joining us, we're talking with Adam Kinzinger, Illinois congressman about his new book. Former, sorry. [chuckles] Former Illinois congressman, Adam Kinzinger about his new book, Renegade: Defending Democracy and Liberty In Our Divided Country, and we are taking your questions. Adam, we've mentioned the former president here a bit. You say in your book, "If the Santos story marked a special low for the GOP candidate for congress, McCarthy's pursuit of the speakership offered a more serious evidence of how Republican leaders will debase themselves," and I assume you mean debase themselves what, in service of the former president? How would you finish that thought for us?

Adam Kinzinger: I would finish it in, yes. All of the above. Debasing themselves morally. I write in the book about how Kevin McCarthy actually shoulder-checked me twice on the floor of the house, and it wasn't a friendly shoulder check like we do sometimes me and the military guys. It's ironic that basically a week after the book comes out he elbows this congressman in Tennessee in the kidney because what that shows is-- Kevin McCarthy's, actually a good politician, I'll give him that. He's good at speaking to people. He's great at raising money, but he totally sold his soul to become speaker by basically embracing Donald Trump.

The second he went to Mar-a-Lago, he resurrected Donald Trump politically. Now, when you know that you're in such a position that literally the future of the country, that trajectory will change based on what you do. Very few people get in a position like that. He was in one and he made the decision to embrace Donald Trump because he couldn't take him down in time for the speakership vote, and that had an impact on the country and the future of the GOP. Then he loses his speakership, so he debased himself, his moral compass for what? Ultimately to lose, to be the only guy to ever lose the speakership midterm like that.

What you're seeing now in his physical-- I guess, his outlash or whatever, is a guy that's struggling with his own moral compass and is projecting on other people. Debasing what you believe, your moral fortitude, your internal red line for the sole purpose of power is not something that will ever fill or satisfy anybody, and frankly, I think it leads to a very deep existential crisis.

Tiffany Hanssen: Well, this is a hold that the former president has on the Republican party, so I'm wondering, it's not just McCarthy, obviously. I'm curious if you think of the real supporters of the president within the party as fringe, or if you really view them as core at this point.

Adam Kinzinger: I would've viewed them as fringe early on, now they're core. I'm not writing off the fact that once Trump goes to trial, I mean, keep in mind, one of our best witnesses on the committee was Mark Meadows, and he didn't even really cooperate. He gave us a certain amount of text messages and quit cooperating, but what he gave us was amazing. It helped us to lay out, frankly, the case that we ultimately ended up making. It was the starting point for that. Well, he's now fully cooperating with Georgia, probably the feds, and so there's going to be a lot of information to come out.

Once that is put in front of the public, Donald Trump can't negate it on Truth Social, it's Republicans testifying against him. I'm not going to rule out the possibility that that could be a sea change in the GOP, and I pray and hope that it is. Now, I recognize that there've been many "sea changes" that never came to be. Right now, I would say the Trump supporters, Trump folks are the establishment GOP, it's the core of the GOP. There will be a fight to take back that core of the GOP, but I don't know if that'll be successful. Probably not in the next year or so, but we have to look 10 years into the future to say, "Okay, will this be successful?"

That's what that battle is. Look, this country, whether it's the Republican party or not, this country needs a conservative movement that's healthy and it needs a progressive movement that's healthy because that give and take, that tug of war between the two actually leads to us progressing at the right speed as a nation. Right now, the conservative, there is no conservative movement. It's just the movement around Donald Trump, the conservative movement is dead. That needs to come back to life for the sake of the country.

Tiffany Hanssen: What elements of the conservative movement are dead?

Adam Kinzinger: I'd say all of them. I mean, if you think about it, what is conservatism? It's a strong national defense. It's standing up against Russia, it's-

Tiffany Hanssen: Spending.

Adam Kinzinger: -spending, fiscal discipline. You can go through all those lists, and that's not what the party stands for right now. I mean, we spent more under Donald Trump than probably any Democratic president. Now, some of that was Covid, and so let's be fair on that, but we still blew up the deficit. Let's not pretend like we were innocent in that. We now have a party that's sympathetic to Vladimir Putin for God's sakes, like how did that happen? Literally, almost overnight.

Yes, I look at that and say, "Who hosts a conservative movement right now?" It's certainly not the GOP, that's for sure, that is a populist party based on the personality of one person and/or based on a hate of liberals or a hate of the left. That's what unites the party right now. It's not a successful party if you're united on hate.

Tiffany Hanssen: If you are right in your assessment regarding the death of conservatism, what does the Democratic Party need to learn about their messaging in combating both Donald Trump and acknowledging what's happening with the Republicans and the conservative movement in this country?

Adam Kinzinger: Look, I give advice to the Democratic Party, not as a criticism, but as a, "Hey, look, I think you're the only party left that believes in democracy right now, so please take this seriously and especially take it seriously from somebody like me who knows how the folks that have to vote for Biden that are leaning towards Trump vote and how they think." There are really big issues out there. One is immigration, the other is crime. Watching the rise of this kind of, honestly, pro-Hamas feeling on the far left is frightening. I've seen people that are hesitant Biden supporters start to entertain going back to Trump because of these far left, I don't know, anti-Israel things that are happening, that's important.

The advice I would give to the left and to the Democrats is welcome moderate Democrats into the party. I think they're much better at that than the Republicans are welcoming moderate Republicans push back against radicalism because for years there were radicals in the GOP that we were told just to ignore. We were told that they were just a small part of the party we need their votes anyway. What's it hurt to humor them? They end up owning the party now. To think that that couldn't happen to the Democratic Party is I think, unrealistic. The Democratic Party, like I said, it's the only one holding the torch for democracy right now, and we need it to be healthy.

Tiffany Hanssen: Two questions in a Trump-Biden matchup in 2024, does that mean you are endorsing Biden?

Adam Kinzinger: Oh, yes. Look, there is only one issue on the ballot in 2024. It's not abortion, it's not taxes, it's not guns, it's not every like controversial issue we can conjure up, it's democracy. That's the only one because all these issues we all like to debate, that only exists in a self-governing republic. That is really a threat under another Trump administration. Yes, I would have no qualms at all about supporting Joe Biden and going out on the campaign trail for him.

Tiffany Hanssen: I wonder, we have a text here. What does Mr. Kinzinger think about the possibility of a third party? We have the fracture we've seen and talked about in the Republican party. We have RFK running, we have Dean Phillips and the Democrats who's mounting a primary challenge to the president. Is it time for a third party, and if so what are the chances that there could be some real traction? The numbers from RFK are interesting. Some reports have him pulling in the 20s.

Adam Kinzinger: Yes, it's interesting. This morning, in fact, I saw an anecdote, it's anecdotal, but it was like somebody that said they were voting for RFK because of his supportive vaccines. It goes to show that's a low-information voter that somehow thinks RFK is a vaccine advocate. He's the opposite. He's a vaccine conspiracy theorist. I think with RFK, there's a lot of people that don't really know how he's gone off the deep end quite honestly, and they still think kind of the Kennedy legacy, but he will take some percent. Look, I would love to see a centrist moderate party. I'd love to see it. We'd need 20 minutes to explain why that's tough to do, but I'd love to see it happen.

This is a moment, though, where if it comes to a Joe Manchin type, and no labels, my concern, I'll vote for Joe Biden, but somebody like me, the people that Biden needs to win in this election if you give them an off-ramp to vote for somebody that's not as disagreeable as Joe Biden on policies, they'll take it. The problem is that elects Donald Trump because there's not many people that are going to be Donald Trump supporters that go to a third party because, I don't know, they want to weigh out. There are going to be a lot of people that maybe have to hold their nose to vote for Joe Biden that would now say, "Okay, I'll just vote for Joe Manchin and soothe my conscience."

The other thing is, let's say Joe Manchin actually wins a couple of states. What happens then? Well, that probably denies anybody 270 electoral votes to become president. In that case, the president is not elected by who gets the most electoral votes, then it goes to the House of Representatives to vote for and it's just by state delegation, and the Republicans have the majority. Donald Trump will win in that scenario. That's something to keep in mind. What's the second and third-order effects here?

Tiffany Hanssen: Adam Kinzinger, I think we're going to have to leave it there. Adam Kinzinger is the former Illinois congressman who served on the January 6th House Select Committee. He's an Air Force veteran, CNN commentator, and the author of a new book, Renegade: Defending Democracy and Liberty in Our Divided Country. Adam, thanks so much for the time today. We appreciate it.

Adam Kinzinger: It was great. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.