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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now we continue our midterm election series, 30 issues in 30 days. Today, issue four, immigration as an issue in the New York State Governor's race. Immigration is a central reality in New York State according to the Census Bureau that a quarter of New York State residents were foreign-born, about a third of the residents of New York City. Right now, of course, there is the influx of asylum seekers, largely from Venezuela, arriving in New York City, 14,000 in the last few months, according to Mayor Eric Adams.

Yet, if you look at the issues pages of the Hochul and Zeldin campaign websites, neither of them has a category for immigration but they do take different stands on many aspects of immigration policy. In August, Zeldin wrote a letter to Hochul urging her to pressure the Biden administration to stop the influx of what the letter calls illegal immigrants. The letter refers to what Zeldin calls the Biden Administration's refusal to secure our nation's border. Yesterday, Hochul was asked by a reporter if Biden is being aggressive enough in policing the southern border, and she said this.

Kathy Hochul: I'm not here to characterize whether someone's aggressive or not. I work with everyone. I'm working with the White House, working with the Mayor of New York to deal with the immediate needs of these people who should not be treated as political ponds. Whether it's a large number or a small number, people are trying to make political statements. That's not how you handle this. These are people who deserve to be treated like human beings, and that's not always the case.

Brian Lehrer: Governor Hochul yesterday declining to criticize the Biden border policies. What she does want from Washington is more help providing for the asylum seeker's needs as she said in a statement last week.

Kathy Hochul: I have a call, another call with the White House tomorrow. I've already spoken to Secretary Mayorkas multiple times about our shared interest in getting federal assistance for this crisis to help all of us but also to address the work issue and how soon people can be able to have the legal ability to work at the time while they're waiting disposition of their cases.

Brian Lehrer: Governor Hochul, last week. Getting back to Zeldin, it's kind of weird how absent he is on the issue. Nationally, limiting immigration is a very top issue for Republicans this year, and they go out of their way generally to raise it. Zeldin is for a variety of conservative positions on immigration, like supporting Donald Trump's border wall and opposing driver's licenses for undocumented immigrants, which are available in New York State but he has said nothing that I could find about Governor Abbott and Governor DeSantis sending so many asylum seekers here and has no recent soundbites.

Here he is in 2018 on Fox News Channel speaking against sanctuary cities. He cites a Denver case in this clip, not one from New York but you'll get the gist, especially his preference for the term illegal rather than undocumented immigrants.

Lee Zeldin: It's unconstitutional what these sanctuary cities are doing. They are obstructing federal policies. They are pandering to a base within their own cities. You have media in these cities that are backing them up. In the Denver example, you have local media calling this illegal alien, where you call him an illegal immigrant, they're calling him an undocumented driver. You have this whole climate, this culture of these policies that are causing this increased risk for our great ICE agents just trying to do their job.

Brian Lehrer: Lee Zeldin in 2018 on Fox. Hochul and Zeldin are different on a host of immigration issues but right now, neither of them seems to want to talk much about it. Here on 30 issues in 30 days, we do. With us now, WNYC and Gothamist state politics reporter, Jon Campbell. Hi Jon, welcome back to the show.

Jon Campbell: Hi, Brian. Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: As you cover this raise, does it strike you that neither of the candidates wants to talk much about immigration, or am I getting a false impression based on what I've been able to find?

Jon Campbell: No, I think your impression is pretty spot on, quite frankly. It's interesting because this is a huge issue in New York City right now but both candidates have different reasons for maybe why they wouldn't want to make a big issue of it. On Lee Zeldin's side, it's just the numbers of the state. You've got 13 million registered voters in New York. About half of them are Democrats, a quarter Republicans, a quarter independents roughly.

It's not an issue that's going to end up pushing him over the top when you are faced with math like that and you are a Republican candidate with strict border rules and those are the kind of things that you support. On Kathy Hochul's side, she has a long and complicated history with the issue of immigration. When she was the Erie County clerk and Governor Spitzer was in office. Governor Spitzer wanted to go ahead with allowing the undocumented to get driver's license, she was the leading opponent to it.

From one point going as far as to say that she would have people thrown in prison if they came to apply for a license. Now, over time, she said that she uses that politician word evolved on the issue and she's come to support New York Screen Light Law, which allows the undocumented to get driver's licenses but it's a tricky situation for her because somebody could just highlight her past positions on issues of immigration. I am not super surprised, though I am in the sense that this is a huge issue in New York City right now and it's not really a primary issue. It's almost like a tertiary issue in the gubernatorial campaign right now.

Brian Lehrer: Nationally, in an NPR/PBS Marist poll immigration was the number two most cited issue for Republicans behind only inflation. I know this is shocking to a lot of Democrats but 22% of Republicans called immigration their most top-of-mind issue. That's an NPR poll. Only 1% of Democrats cited it as top of mind. That's how different the parties are nationally on this issue, the rank and file of the parties. Do you think it's different in New York state? Do you think it's not true even for New York State Republicans if Zeldin isn't seizing on it?

Jon Campbell: We have a poll from earlier this month from Emerson College. It was funded by [unintelligible 00:07:06] and The Hill. That poll showed that New York voters are pretty overwhelmingly focused on the economy. They asked a series of issues and said, "What's your top issue going into this November election?" Almost 40% said the economy. Immigration was just at 5%. It was after issues like healthcare and crime and abortion access.

I think that's really why you're seeing in this s gubernatorial race, economic issues, and abortion and crime. Those are the issues that the candidates are trying to elevate and work to their benefit. I think that further goes to show why they're not highlighting immigration issues because polling shows that maybe it's not top of mind for a lot of voters in New York the way that economic pocketbook issues are.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take your calls on immigration as an issue in the New York State Governor's Race, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or Tweet @BrianLehrer. It's issue four in our 30 issues in 30 days election series. Does it matter as an issue to you? Immigrants from anywhere, we, of course, invite your calls. 212-433-WNYC. Republicans rank immigration as a much higher priority than Democrats do generally, as we just cited. Republicans, is this a voting issue for you in New York?

It is for Republicans around the country. 212-433-WNYC. Democrats, what immigration issues are important to you, especially with the asylum seekers front and center as a New York news story right now? Does that influence your thinking in your vote for governor or any other race? 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer with WNYC and Gothamist State politics reporter, Jon Campbell.

Jon with the asylum seekers so front and center in the news, is Zeldin generally ducking contact with the press at all? I would've thought I could find some soundbites where he was asked to comment on the guys he hopes will be his fellow Republican governors, Greg Abbott of Texas, and Ron DeSantis of Florida, sending all these asylum seekers here to make their political point. Even if he's not running on backing Greg Abbott and Ron DeSantis, has no reporter had the chance to corner him and ask him if he is?

Jon Campbell: No, I don't think that's fair to say. Lee Zeldin has a lot of events every week and reporters generally get chances to ask him questions. He just had one yesterday in Astoria. He had an event or spoke to the press last week in Lake George. He does speak to the press quite often. He has actually addressed this on Fox Business, I should say. He appears on Fox Business a lot with Maria Bartiromo.

She asked him about Governor Abbott in particular. He basically painted it as border communities being desperate, what else are they supposed to do? He called on the president to finish the border wall and force the Remain in Mexico policy. He's repeated what he said a few times which is Democrats incentivize and reward illegal entry into the country. Now, it's notable that he says that on Fox Business which has a more conservative audience, obviously.

He knows who he's speaking to there. He hasn't said it as much in more public forums. He's trying to appeal to a general election audience. Now, in New York, it was different perhaps before the Republican Primary. There was a Newsmax debate. It actually organically came up during this Newsmax debate and he said, "Congress should take action on this issue once The House flips in November." Again, said we shouldn't be rewarding and incentivizing illegal entry. His position is pretty clear on this. He was a strong supporter of Donald Trump. He was a strong supporter of the border wall, so to speak. His position is pretty well on the record at this point.

Brian Lehrer: They are pretty different on a host of immigration issues and people should know it even if neither candidate is making a big thing about it. He did send that letter to Hochul in August, which referred to other people, not DeSantis or Governor Abbott sending what he calls illegal immigrants to New York, rather than those arriving by bus at Port Authority. He cited migrants flying into Westchester County Airport in the dead of night and demanded that Hochul call on Biden to secure the border.

Are you familiar with the Westchester County Airport situation if that's real and if the migrants arriving there are not among those seeking political asylum like the ones arriving now by bus?

Jon Campbell: Yes. One other thing I should mention too. You mentioned Ron DeSantis again. Ron DeSantis was supposed to headline a fundraiser for Lee Zeldin earlier this month. It got canceled because there was a first responder funeral that Ron DeSantis had to go to. Obviously, he's hitching his wagon there as well. There's not a lot of mystery about whether Lee Zeldin supports Ron DeSantis and vice versa as well. In terms of the Westchester County flights, my understanding of that--

A lot of this goes to, I should cite, Glenn Kessler from the Washington Post. He did a very good piece on this a while back. Generally, the idea behind the Westchester County flights are these are generally HHS flights, Health and Human Services flights, where it is unaccompanied minors who come over the border and they are flown to Westchester County before their bus to, say, New Jersey or somewhere else, to reunify with their parents or guardians or whoever is going to be tasked with looking after them.

That is generally what those flights to Westchester County, that's what the Federal Government says at least. This did become an issue in the Republican Primary because Rob Astorino, the former Westchester County executive who was running for governor, running for the Republican nomination. He made a huge deal of this. There were witness videos of adults coming off these flights. He tried to make a very big deal of this. He did actually challenge Lee Zeldin about it in that Newsmax debate that I referred to earlier.

The Federal Government says it's generally unaccompanied minors, but there are some times where perhaps detainees are being transferred from one area to another area, and they're going through Westchester to do that. Again, I want to cite Glenn Kessler of the Washington Post for really digging into that issue.

Brian Lehrer: Diego in Sunset Park, you're on WNYC. Hi, Diego.

Diego: Hi. I have a question, but before I do, I'd like to just clarify in my mind, undocumented people are people who are crossing the border illegally. What we are experiencing with these people who are being flown to Martha's Vineyard in New York and [unintelligible 00:14:57] from Texas, these are people who are seeking asylum. Is there a distinction? If you listen to Fox News or Republicans in general, there's no distinction. They're all "Illegal".

Brian Lehrer: It's a distinction we've made on this show a number of times. Jon, you want to take that and clarify in your words?

Jon Campbell: Yes. First, I would say because somebody's undocumented does not necessarily mean that they entered the country illegally. They could be the children of somebody who entered the country illegally at some point, something like that. That's a huge issue. Asylum seekers are people who are essentially claiming that they're fleeing their country because they fear for their safety. There's a process in the US where you can seek asylum and you can seek the ability to live in the US or New York in particular because you are fearful for your safety in your country.

Now, the governor said yesterday that a lot of the most recent asylum seekers are coming from, say, Venezuela, where we don't have diplomatic relations at the moment, and that is causing some extra problems and that the asylum process is backed up. Maybe people are waiting 60 days to get a hearing, something like that. What she said, Governor Hochul said, is she wants to see something where maybe these asylum seekers can get some temporary work permit so they can work and provide for themselves in the short term while they're waiting for their asylum hearing.

Brian Lehrer: To the caller's point, there's a difference between illegal or undocumented immigrants just sneaking across the border and trying to disappear into the population and then looking for work. We're talking about large numbers of people, thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people coming across because of the crisis in Venezuela and presenting themselves to federal agents at the border and saying, "Sir, ma'am, I am here to present myself as a political asylum seeker because I'm not safe in my country." That's, for the most part, who's being sent to New York.

Jon Campbell: Yes, that's correct. There's a difference there.

Brian Lehrer: Diego, you had a question that you wanted to ask after that. Go ahead.

Diego: Yes, please. During the Trump administration, there was never any talk of E-Verify because there is a solution here. If people put their heads together and say that all people who are employed should be tested with their social security numbers and employers have to pay penalties and start a process of having these people become documented and pay fines or whatever for crossing illegally and employers for employing people illegally and potentially providing them with social security numbers. That can be a solution if we look for a solution. It just seems like this is a football being tossed around for political gain.

Brian Lehrer: Diego, thank you very much. Does Kathy Hochul, Jon to your knowledge, talk to Biden or people from the administration even privately, even quietly, and say, "Look, we've got to get a handle on this. I know asylum-seeking is a righteous thing and we want to be compassionate and we're the country of the Statue of Liberty and everything else but if it's 2 million contacts with people crossing the border over the last year--" Which is the number that Zeldin sites, "it's so much to handle."

That's in addition to every other immigration question that was on the table even before this current wave. "Can't we do something more to reduce the flow?"? Do you think she's having that conversation?

Jon Campbell: She has been in contact with the White House and the Secretary of Homeland Security. She mentioned that. I think we might have heard that in the clip at the beginning here too. What she said that she's communicated to the White House is in part what I was just talking about there where there needs to be some temporary work permit to allow these people to contribute legally while they're waiting for their asylum. She's also--

Brian Lehrer: Have they been-- Go ahead. She's also--

Jon Campbell: She declined to criticize the White House, but she said that she's made clear to the White House that Congress should compromise and do something. She said she worked on the Immigration Bill in the '80s when she worked with Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the former New York Senator. She's calling for some congressional compromise. That's a great thing to call for, but congressional compromise is--

Brian Lehrer: That's why the country has been stuck for 20 years, right?

Jon Campbell: Exactly.

Brian Lehrer: There were various bipartisan congressional compromises. John McCain was involved in one, Marco Rubio was involved in one, George Bush was involved in one, and yet they all go down because they don't have enough Republican votes. Few more minutes on issue four in our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series. Issue four is immigration as an issue in the New York State Governor's race. Manuel in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with our state politics reporter, Jon Campbell. Hi, Manuel.

Manuel: Hi. How are you? I want to ask you something. I am a historian. I look at the policy of the United States towards Latin America for the last 100 years. It was just supporting dictators after dictators. Whether it be Trujillo in Central Domingo, whether it be the Baptista in Cuba. When they didn't like that, they would kill them. For example, Maurice Bishop in Grenada was killed on the Reagan administration. If you remember, in Chile, the man that was there elected by the people, he was supposed to execute him under-- What's his name? He was at the time, I forgot his name. Anyway, the thing is, we are paying for the sins of the past. Are you there?

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Bring us to the present.

Manuel: The present is, as a result of all these poor policies of the United States, these immigrants who are poor, who come here only for work, they're not here to shooting people in the street. They're paying a hell of price, but we don't know how to control that. This whole thing is so open. New York has become impossible to live here with all these illegal immigrants who come from everywhere. It's not only from Latin America. They come from everywhere.

Brian Lehrer: Why do you say that? How is illegal immigration to New York affecting your life? How is it making it an unlivable city in your experience?

Manuel: In Brooklyn, I see what's going on. For example, there's no housing for them. I see poor Mexicans lying on the sidewalks totally drunk, which is not their fault, unfortunately. They're not killing anybody. They're not using guns to-- These people are not here to kill. They want to get jobs. They have no work. Instead of having a policy like they had in Germany, where you come in with a permit and work and pay your taxes, none of this is happening here.

They just come across the border. I don't blame them. If I was in their situation, I will do the same thing. How are we going to control that if the new administration that is here is doing nothing about it? It's just sitting in Washington. I voted for Trump because I saw the decline in the United States. Not that I like the guy. The guy is insane, but I voted for him for only one reason, control illegal immigration. If you have to put a barrier across the frontier, do it.

He did it, but unfortunately, they keep coming and coming. We are fighting here a war that we are not going to win. We have to stop this. We have to find a way to provide Latin American-- Remember Kennedy when they had the Alliance for Progress, he was providing money to--

Brian Lehrer: To improve the conditions in the home country so not so many people feel the desperation that drives them here, even if they don't have a visa. Manuel, thank you for your call. There's one for the border wall, Jon, but let's end on this. He brings up so many people without work, therefore, there are too many people. Yet we have another caller we're not going to have time to take, who says, "There's so much trouble finding workers these days with the labor shortage. We should facilitate allowing all kinds of people who are here without papers to work."

You were talking before about how Governor Hochul is employing the Biden administration to get some kind of work authorization for the asylum seekers currently arriving. My last question, are they responsive in Washington to that plea?

Jon Campbell: I don't know if it's going to get done, quite frankly. Like we said, any immigration action in Washington has proven to be difficult over the years. The governor [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Do they need Congress to do that or could the Biden administration do that?

Jon Campbell: I don't know. I'm sure if the Biden administration did it, there'd be quite a bit of Republican pushback. I don't know the answer to that question. I just know that Governor Hochul is pushing for that. As of yesterday, she made that a big issue. Whether or not that gets done, I don't know.

Brian Lehrer: WNYC state politics reporter, Jon Campbell. Obviously, we'll be talking to you as the campaign goes on.

Jon Campbell: Thank you for having me.

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