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Brigid Bergin: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Brigid Bergin, senior politics reporter in the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom and host of The People's Guide to Power Sundays at noon filling in for Brian today. We'll continue now with the midterm election series, 30 Issues in 30 Days, with the conclusion of the three-day look at the culture wars in public education. On Monday, Brian talked about the closely contested New Jersey's 7th congressional race and how sex education and LGBTQ issues are playing out there.

Yesterday, he talked about how American history is being taught and why that's become a partisan wedge issue for Republicans. Today, we'll look at the New York State Governor's race, where the Republican challenger has drawn on parents' rights as an issue and what's at stake for education in this particular race. Here's an ad on Lee Zeldin's campaign website that he released back in April during the primary.

Lee Zeldin: I'm highly suspicious of those in government who say that parents shouldn't be more involved in their kids' education, trying to stop these great parents from showing up, to be involved in curriculum, being involved in their kids' education because you know what, a parent has a fundamental right to control the upbringing of their child and they do not relinquish that right because they send their kids off to school. We are going to take back our country and our state. Let's fight for our kids and their future. Losing is not an option.

Brigid: For her part, Governor Hochul has pointed to support in the state budget for education. Here she is on this show in August.

Governor Kathy Hochul: We put $7 billion to help struggling families take care of their kids. Record investment in education in our budget. No one has done that before.

Brigid: She continued.

Governor Hochul: In fact, we were able to give so much for education that school districts on Long Island, which has a high tax burden, where he's from, that they are able to actually cut their school taxes because of support from the state.

Brigid: To guide us through Issue 8, I'm joined by Reema Amin, a reporter at Chalkbeat New York. Welcome back to the show Reema.

Reema Amin: Thank you so much for having me.

Brigid: Listeners, especially parents of school-aged kids, are schools a key deciding factor in how you're choosing between Governor Hochul and her challenger Lee Zeldin. What matters most to you, having control over what and how your children are taught or support of public school budgets? Tweet @BrianLehrer or call us at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Reema, is that the way you see the contest stacking up when it comes to issues around education? Lee Zeldin is echoing many of the talking points that have been used by other Republicans like Glenn Youngkin in Virginia and Ron DeSantis in Florida, while Governor Hochul focuses on providing services and generally steering clear of controversy where possible.

Reema Amin: Yes, that pretty much hits the nail on the head. As you said, Zeldin has really embraced these talking points that you hear from conservative lawmakers and candidates across the country, using phrases like divisive curriculum, talking about race and what he says are other factors in classrooms or is not okay. He's really gone in on that pretty significantly and on this idea of school choice, which has been around for a long time, but plays into the parental rights movement and really supports the idea of letting charter schools grow in New York and giving parents the-- just expanding school choice options, whereas, I was talking to Jeffrey Henig yesterday, who's a professor of political science and education at Columbia University's Teachers College.

He noted that Hochul is the front runner in this race and it doesn't really help her to take what he called sharper or very specific positions on education or anything that might feel controversial. One of those ideas in New York is talking about lifting the cap on how many charter schools have opened, which we reached in New York City a few years ago. She's crafted a state budget and boosted education spending for that. That's something she can look to, that's something that a lot of people wouldn't argue with, and beyond that he was saying that it really benefits her not to go too into weeds beyond that.

Brigid: Sure. Reema, Brian spoke to a guest yesterday, Jon Valant of Brookings, who rooted this Republican culture wars attack on public schools in the reaction to the pandemic and the lockdowns when parents took issue with remote learning and masking, feeling like they had little control over the decisions the school systems were making that disrupted their kids' lives and their own. Do you see that as an issue here?

Reema: I do think that that idea has really helped fuel what you're hearing is called the parental rights movement. I think COVID policies have in the way that school systems in cities and local districts have implemented COVID policies over the last couple of years, have really mobilized and energized lots of different parents on both sides, parents who wanted more protections in schools, as well as families who wanted those mitigations to be peeled back. I do think that that has really driven more parents into activism.

A good example in New York is there was an op-ed in The New York Post by two prominent parent advocates who support screened admissions to New York City high schools and also did not support things like masking mandates and vaccine mandates in schools. They wrote this op-ed saying because of everything that's happened in the past couple of years, particularly under Bill de Blasio, we're really energized to vote for Lee Zeldin. You're just seeing more of that. I think a lot of that has been fueled by the pandemic.

Brigid: It's interesting. Governor Hochul did say in that same interview on this show that she won't be relying on remote learning again. She's ended mask mandates and random COVID testing in schools. That's not really obviously a curriculum issue. It speaks to providing less interrupted on-site education, but it also seems to be a response to those increasingly vocal group of parents who organized to object to those types of things. Do you think that's fair?

Reema: Yes, I do think that's fair. I think at one point she thought remote learning was a mistake, particularly the burden that it placed on mothers and that got a lot of attention when she said that. I think that has certainly been in response to folks who didn't like the COVID mitigations. She also supported and oversaw something that's come under fire now just by the way the deal happened, sending lots of at-home COVID tests to schools so that students could have them.

I'm not sure that that's something that even Lee Zeldin would do. It seems that he supports pulling back all mandates and doing what many people call this idea of "returning to normal." I do think that there's some overlap between them, but there are some key differences there on COVID policies.

Brigid: Let's bring in Sharon from Queens. Sharon, welcome to WNYC. I think you have a question about charters.

Sharon: Yes. What I'm afraid of is that people are not thinking about public schools as the norm and doing something alternative like faith-based schools or charter schools. Meanwhile, we need to put our effort into making free public schools the norm and also put out resources into after school. Children are not in school until two or three o'clock. After school is where most of the kids get in trouble. Parents have to work. It's costing so much just for rent and food that there is no way that a person can pick up a child at three o'clock. The resources need to go into that, not to charter schools or faith-based schools because most of those parents do have the money to do after school. That's my comment.

Brigid: Sharon, thanks so much for calling. Reema, she does raise this idea of the time outside of the classroom and I don't know how much you've looked into whether that's something that either Hochul or Zeldin thinks requires more investment, but any response to some of the points that Sharon was raising there?

Reema: Yes. This eight to three idea, it also comes up in early childhood programs as well which Hochul has expanded the access to early childhood education in her budget. That was a big thing for her. It's the same idea that what happens after three o'clock, what happens for working families that need care, but can't really afford to pay for aftercare or after school? I haven't really seen Zeldin talk about this much, but it does appear to be something that Hochul has expressed support for or understands just in her talking points about like working families and providing more support for families. I haven't really seen either of them take policy positions or say, "If I'm elected, we're really going to find ways to boost resources so that kids have lots of afterschool programs."

Brigid: Let's talk for a moment about another issue that's certainly gotten attention in lots of other parts of the country and to some extent here in New York. That ad we played from Lee Zeldin is from April, and he wrote an op-ed for Fox News in 2021, where he called out CRT and the state education department's Culturally Responsive-Sustaining Education Framework, which is somehow leaked to CRT in these criticisms. CRT, of course, has become a real lightning rod, but how does he talk about education issues as he campaigns now?

Reema: Yes. As he campaigns now, he did release his education agenda in the spring, and he's taken these talking points that you do here across the country that education has been politicized and talks about CRT that it's proliferated classrooms. I should note that city and state officials say that critical race theory, which, of course, is an academic framework for studying systemic racism that has been used by Republicans as this umbrella term to talk about-- when teachers talk about diversity and inclusion.

City officials have said that actually CRT is not specifically taught in schools, but both New York City and the state encourage teachers to teach culturally responsive lessons, which is just ensuring that lessons affirm the cultural identities of students. Now, going back to him, he's taken issue with that and with that idea that schools should teach culturally responsive lessons.

In fact, in his platform, he says that instead, schools should be teaching civics lessons that "teach students about how and why they get to live in the greatest nation in the history of the world." I think on his platform, while he doesn't really elaborate on what instead he wants to be taught in schools, it seems that he, A, believes that there's CRT happening in classrooms or is conflating that with culturally responsive lessons and that's not okay. That's his talking point there.

Brigid: He also wrote an op-ed for the New York Post, which called for lifting the cap on charter schools, tax credits for school choice, as well as testing into selective schools, which I think is fair to say, earned him the support from some an interesting group of supporters, some of who identify as Democrats, but say that they are in favor of school choice. I want to bring in another one of our callers, though, who has a question. I don't know if you have the answer, Reema. This is Jake from Rockland. Jake, welcome to WNYC.

Jake: Oh, hi guys. I'm a middle school teacher in the Bronx. This is my 15th year. I follow Reema on Twitter. She's a great follow. I'd like to ask, in chalk-based reporting and a lot of the educational reporting, we see there isn't a lot about the financial donations going from charter school packs to candidates. A lot of times when sources are quoted it also doesn't explain that those sources are funded by charter school billionaires like Ed Trust and [unintelligible 00:14:53] and all those groups. I'm wondering if Reema could explain what's going on from her perspective in her reporting and in [unintelligible 00:15:04] and some of the other media because I think teachers would love to see that reporting.

Brigid: Yes. Jake, thanks so much for calling. It's great. We know there's some certainly public school teachers in our region who are off today, so we love to hear from you and parents. Reema, you're an education reporter not a political reporter by your beat, but what's your response to Jake's question there about where some of the support for these charters is coming from and the money behind it all?

Reema: Yes. In terms of his question about sources, we try to interview and talk to lots of different sources who may have different viewpoints. I do think it's really important to look at who's funding these candidates. There's been a lot of reporting elsewhere about that. I'm not sure how else to address the question except that I hear him and we just try really hard to really have a diverse pool of sources and organizations like Ed Trust or even organizations like Alliance for Quality Education. We try to get all those voices so we can have a rounded look at things like who's running for governor.

Brigid: I'm Brigid Bergin filling in for Brian Lehrer today. We have a few more minutes with Chalkbeat New York's Reema Amin, who as we conclude our culture wars at school section of this election series, 30 Issues in 30 days. Reema, a little bit more on Zeldin on his website, he calls for both greater parental involvement and mayoral control of New York City schools. Is there any contradiction there?

Reema: Yes. I think so. I think that a mayoral-controlled system by nature means that there's no parental control. I think his idea of parental involvement probably is more centered on the idea of being able to choose if your child goes to traditional public schools or is homeschooled. Then he also has a bullet point in there about education savings accounts, which parents can use to withdraw their children from public schools and pay for private school or other education options.

I imagine that he's talking about that when he says that. If you support mayoral control of schools in New York City, while the state legislature has tried to put more parental input in that, the buck really stops with the mayor. It's hard for parents to really have a big voice in that.

Brigid: Let's continue on that idea of how much does the governor actually control when it comes to education in New York and what's taught in schools. Here's Governor Hochul explaining that she has limited say in educational issues when asked about the then-upcoming vote by the Board of Regents to require non-public schools to have "substantially equivalent educational standards as the public schools."

Governor Hochul: We believe that every child in the state of New York deserves to have a very high quality of education. People understand that this is outside the purview of a governor. There's a regulatory process in place, but the governor's office has nothing to do with it. This is an independent entity, Department of Education, Commissioner of Education, and the trustees are all separately governed outside our purview.

Brigid: Now, of course, that was during a Q&A in response to a question about the oversight of Yeshiva education after that huge New York Times report. For the kind of things Lee Zeldin has said he wants to change, is that the governor's call, or does it require the legislature to act as well, or is it all up to the Board of Regents?

Reema: Yes. It's sort of a mix. The Board of Regents oversees learning standards and the sorts of things that schools should be aiming for when they educate children. The state doesn't actually mandate any curriculum for schools, just has these learning standards. They have a lot of purview and oversight over that. Certainly, the state legislature can pass laws that requires schools to teach certain curriculum. A great example is that there was a bill to mandate the teaching of Asian American history.

It didn't really go anywhere last session, but what's important to know here is, again, if Zeldin were to get elected, let's say, and he wanted to ban the teaching of certain racial injustice or something, I don't know, in schools or wanted to ban CRT, he would need the support of the state legislature which is overwhelmingly democratic. I think it's safe to say that they're not interested in pretty conservative policies like that.

Even if he were to be elected, I think he would find it really, really tough to achieve some of his policy goals here that are on the more very conservative side. Generally, I think the state education department, they don't really support or like when the legislature does something like mandate certain curriculum. That's just my sense. I think he'd find it pretty tough to do that.

Brigid: Just since we have it, I want to play a clip from Lee Zeldin responding to the decision by the Board of Regents calling it unfair to Yeshivas and said it would be his job as governor to make sure Yeshiva students-- Here is the clip from Zeldin.

Lee: Are given the highest quality education possible and their teachers and their families have the choice and the opportunity to be here to be able to afford an education and to be able to decide if they're not happy with a public school option, that they could go into some other school that they desire.

Brigid: It sounds like he's making this an issue of both school choice, but there's also a political strategy for him here, isn't it?

Reema: Yes. New York Times did a great story about this, I think, a couple of weeks ago about how he supports Yeshivas and them having this independence over what they teach in school. But Yeshivas are located in communities where many Orthodox Jewish New Yorkers live. It seems he's trying to court some of that vote, which is significant in New York City, as he seeks more support here. It is interesting, the tack that he's taken, especially after that time's investigation.

Brigid: Let's go to Debbie in Harlem. Debbie, welcome to WNYC. Thanks so much for holding on. What is your question?

Debbie: Hi. October, among many things, is dyslexia awareness month. None of the prior conversation really matters unless kids are taught to read. We have struggling readers and dyslexic kids, all need a better reading curriculum all over the state. A lot of parents around the nation are using these parental rights to look at the reading and writing curriculum to make sure it aligns with evidence. I just wonder if the current governor is going to assign the Dyslexia Taskforce Act and if Zeldin has said anything about the poor state of reading instruction in our state.

Brigid: Debbie, thanks so much for calling. Reema, I don't know if you know about that specific bil,l but if you do?

Reema: I don't know about that specific bill. On her point, though, about Zeldin, he has looked at state test scores and criticized generally traditional public schools, just looking at rates of reading proficiency, but I haven't actually seen him talk about or the governor for that matter unless I've missed something significant. I haven't heard either of them talk about this issue. It is a huge issue in New York. Mayor Eric Adams and Chancellor Banks have really focused on it or want to, but I haven't really heard either of them raise it in their education platforms.

Brigid: Let's talk just on our final question about something Governor Hochul did this summer related to school budgets and class sizes. She signed the bill the legislature passed that would mandate smaller class sizes which the city, of course, claims will require spending cuts elsewhere. Has Lee Zeldin weighed in on that?

Reema: That's a great question. I haven't seen him address that. I do know that some of his supporters did push back on that bill saying that this is going to cost a lot of money and it's going to take away resources for more specialized education or accelerated learning programs for students. The city also pushed back against the bill citing the cost. The governor herself took a while to sign the bill. I think she was concerned as you said about the cost.

I think it's notable that this idea generally of smaller class sizes, I think proponents of school choice sometimes like to say that if you were given the choice to be outside of a traditional public school, if you're concerned about things like class sizes, or test scores, or whatever else might be on your mind, you could go to a charter school, you could have the chance to go somewhere else. I wouldn't be surprised if he brought that up in the past.

Brigid: That's Interesting. Well, we're going to have to leave it there for today. That's issue eight in the Brian Lehrer shows midterm election series, 30 Issues in 30 days. Tomorrow Brian will turn to issues relating to climate change, but for today I want to thank Reema Amin from Chalkbeat New York for talking about education issues in the New York State Governor's race. Thanks so much, Reema.

Reema: Thank you so much.

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