[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Now, we continue with our election series, 30 Issues in 30 Days. We're in a stretch of eight consecutive days on racial justice issues facing Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Today, 30 Issues in 30 Days Issue 18: The Suburbs and Desegregation. Now, the suburbs have been a bastion of American post-World War II prosperity, but until the pandemic, more prosperous Americans, including more families than before had also been moving back to the cities. For many, the suburbs also symbolize something else, the deep racial and economic divides in our society. Many suburban communities saw their populations grow from the emigration of white Americans from cities, especially in the 1960s, '70s, and '80s in the phenomenon known as white flight. Exclusionary housing policies going back decades, even before those, have also hampered single-family homeownership and social mobility for many non-white Americans. President Trump's victory in 2016, would not have been possible without the white suburban vote. His five-point margin in the suburbs, according to a New York Times exit poll was crucial in his narrow victories across the Midwest. Now, the president positions himself as their protector against Joe Biden, who was campaigning on a platform that includes more inclusive housing practices, and affordable housing development in the suburbs. We're going to play a few clips of each here. Here's one from the presidential debate two weeks ago, where Trump makes a dire warning about life under a Biden presidency.

President Trump: I think it's a party issue. You can bring in a couple of examples, but if you look at Chicago, what's going on in Chicago, where 53 people were shot and 8 died shot. If you look at New York, where it's going up like nobody's ever seen anything, the numbers are going up 100%, 150%, 200% crime. It is crazy what's going on, and he doesn't want to say law and order, because he can't, because he'll lose his radical left supporters. Once he does that, it's over with but if he ever got to run this country, and they ran it the way he would want to run it, we would have-- our suburbs would be gone, by the way, our suburbs would be gone.

Brian: That's an interesting Trump juxtaposition that he makes a lot. He talks about crime in the cities, and that if Biden and the Democrats have their way, the problems of the cities are going to come to the suburbs. Here's a little bit of what Biden said in response.

Joe Biden: You wouldn't know a suburb unless you took a wrong turn.

President Trump: I know suburbs so much than--

Chris Wallace: Go ahead. Wait a minute.

Joe Biden: I was raised in the suburbs. This is not 1950. All these dog whistles and racism don't work anymore. Suburbs are, by and large, integrated. There's many people today driving their kids to soccer practice, and they're Black, and white, and Hispanic in the same car, as there have been any time in the past.

Brian: Biden and Trump from the debate. Let's go around one more time. Here's Trump on Friday last week on the Mark Levin Show, conservative talk show, where Trump restates that the goal of the left is to destroy the suburbs when he's asked in this question by the host.

Mark Levin: I don't think despite the fact that you keep raising it, I don't think people are really paying attention to Joe Biden's plans with the American suburbs out there. You know what he's planning to do because you put an end to it, right?

President Trump: Destroy the suburbs and put low-income housing there, that's going to bring a lot of crime. The suburb is going to be the next target of the radical left, you know that. You know that better than anybody, I think. The suburbs are going to be the target.

Brian: He got to that issue of bringing low-income housing to the suburbs. Biden has said many times that one of the keys to closing the racial wealth gap is homeownership, and here he is, in an excerpt from a speech from July, where he outlined what he called his Build Back Better campaign and economic plan, meant to aid working families and close racial disparities. Here's a little more of Joe Biden.

Joe Biden: Today American cities, there are a number, where about 75% of white Americans own their homes, only 25% of Black and brown citizens or Black citizens own their homes. Even in the middle-class communities of color, the same homes that exists in the white community are often valued significantly less.

Brian: There's a policy dispute, at least one, underlying all of this, having to do with the Fair Housing Act. Let's bring in our guest and it's our own Arun Venugopal, reporter at WNYC who focuses on issues of race and immigration. One of his recent pieces on our website, Gothamist, is called Are Trump and Biden Fighting About Abolishing the Suburbs or Desegregating Them. Hey, Arun, welcome back to the show.

Arun Venugopal: Hey, Brian, thanks for having me.

Brian: Why'd you frame your story with that question?

Arun: These editors, they're always looking for flash and bang, of course. Don't blame me.

Brian: [laughs]

Arun: As you said, it's a legitimate policy debate. It's a very important one. Segregation is really, gives birth to almost every other disparity or ending of disparities around. Whether it's health disparities or access to education. The networks that people are able to build over the course of their life, the wealth that they can accumulate, the people they can marry or not marry. Certainly, it's not 1968 anymore, things have changed. Even if you talk to the most progressive housing rights activists, they'll say that, but there's still a long way to go. There are many parts of America, of the suburbs, and of course, cities like our own. New York City is incredibly segregated city. We tend to overlook that, when we're looking over at this, if you're looking at the suburbs, but this fight, that's going on between the president and between Vice President Biden is really centering on the suburbs, which has this long history both, it's like the center of America and what it means, definitely ever since the post-war era.

Brian: There is a particular policy, that the Obama administration, or as the Trump campaign would now say, the Obama-Biden administration, did institute that the Trump administration reversed, it's known as the Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing Rule. Can you explain that?

Arun: Yes. Basically, this is actually part of the original Fair Housing Act, but it's only under Obama where really it was, I guess, given teeth. The idea is that cities have to foster fair housing. It's under Obama that they said, basically, "If you're receiving federal money for housing, we're going to hold you accountable for any barriers to fair housing, any sort of biases," and there are many. It's using essentially the power of the federal government to push for change in these local municipalities across the country, and it's right here in our own suburbs, namely Westchester, where that was really tested. Going back to the 2000s, a fight over trying to make Westchester, many of the towns and the villages, be more accessible to people of color, namely to Black residents.

Brian: Let me open up the phones on this in particular listeners in the suburbs right now, Black, brown, white, or any other suburban listeners, is this an issue for you? How much density? How much low-income housing per se, policy should allow or encourage in your suburban community? Do you see it in racial terms? 646-435-7280. Does this issue make you lean Trump more, lean Biden more, or neither? Maybe this is not the first thing that most people are going to vote on, but this is something that Trump is running hard-on. "Joe Biden is going to destroy the suburbs by bringing in low-income housing." You've heard it over and over again if you've been watching campaign events 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280. For any listeners in the suburbs, on how this issue relates to your town, your community, whether you're Black, brown, white, or anyone else, 646-435-7280. Arun, I think we have to say out loud, Joe Biden said it in his clip, and it isn't partisan to say this, I think it's just observational, that when Trump says that Biden is going to destroy the suburbs by bringing low-income housing, that that means race.

Arun: Yes, I think that's the way that his many comments over the course of the last few months have been broadly interpreted, meaning the president's comments. He's been really going to town with this in the last few months, not just on this particular policy, but on this idea that, especially when the protests broke out across America, in the wake of George Floyd's death, this idea that's been embraced by many Republicans, really that violence is at the heart of these cities, namely these Democratic cities. As Chris Wallace pointed out, that's not really borne out by the facts, but this is the narrative that's been embraced by many Republicans starting at the top, which is that there's violence in the cities, and that violence is going to exported, along with poverty, to the suburbs, unless, the president is reelected. I guess, some people might use the word dog whistle, often, it really doesn't sound that subtle, it sounds pretty explicit.

Brian: In your article, you focus on the Obama administration to some degree, and implementing the Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing Rule. I think your conclusion is that it was implemented sort of meh, what would you say?

Arun: Well, at least in Westchester, it was really dragged out over the course of the Obama era. I guess the county, namely, under the county executive, Rob Astorino, felt that it was onerous. It was, way too--

Brian: Republican county executive, we should point out.

Arun: Correct.

Brian: Who opposed the policy.

Arun: Exactly, he felt that it was way too much federal meddling in the affairs of the county. He says that this is not about race. His argument is that Westchester is, by and large, racially integrated, and this was overreach on the part of the Obama administration. They dragged it out over the course of, the Obama era. Then, once President Trump came in, he suspended the rule, and then this year, he basically got rid of it. I guess, looking at this particular county, and this idea, is Westchester integrated? Because certainly the number of people of color who've moved into Westchester has gone up quite a bit in the last few decades. I guess, arguing against this is the fact that you can look at these particular pockets, across Westchester, where you have this incredible concentration of, say, Black people. Conversely, you have these incredible concentrations of people who are primarily white, and live in these nice single family homes. The idea, in terms of desegregation being, that this pattern prevents people of color, specifically Black people from moving into these areas, because it's very expensive, and that it's exclusionary zoning. Is that really just the inherent character of the suburbs and a thing of beauty? The reason that people valorized the suburbs since, essentially, for many decades now, is that racial? Progressive said, yes, it is racial, it's exclusionary and people like Rob Astorino are saying, "No, this is a class issue. It's out of reach, even for people like me," he says, and it's not really specifically aimed at Black people or anybody else. He argues that Westchester is much more integrated than people like New York City in New York City give it credit for.

Brian: Let's take a phone call. Daniel in Montclair, you're on WNYC. Hi, Daniel.

Daniel: Hi, Brian, thank you so much for having me.

Brian: Thank you for calling.

Daniel: I wanted to call because I grew up in Montclair. I am Black, I love how diverse it is but it has not always been inclusive, it still struggles with inclusivity. I can see that now, I've recently moved home about a year ago. I can see all of the changes, I can see how it is just becoming more and more shi-shi, if you will. There's so many new housing projects and condos and all of these extremely expensive apartment building. It's becoming more inaccessible for people of color. For years now, the locals in my neighborhood, which was historically Black and brown, and now it's just becoming very gentrified. Our grocery store has been closed for years. They keep on making plans to allegedly make a new one, they haven't. Something like that, I view as, pushing people out. Because if you don't have a car to go to the Whole Foods all the way up the street, which is very expensive, or go to the grocery store across town, what are you doing?

Brian: Even the idea of living in a New Jersey suburb without a car would be foreign to a lot of people. Do you think suburbs should or can be constructed, so that they're friendly to people who are not car owners?

Daniel: Well, yes, and I think that's one of the great things about Montclair is because it is very walkable. We do have buses and trains, but at the same time, if you don't have access to a car, then you're having to Uber everywhere. That's why Montclair is great and that's why so many people are moving here, but I can see how it's becoming less and less accessible. Something like incorporating more low income housing, allocating low income housing, I think would make it more accessible to people of color who are interested in moving here but then they see the cost of apartments being just as expensive as New York, if not more, you're going to get a certain type of person, and I think Montclair will become less and less inclusive.

Brian: Daniel, thank you so much for your call. Arun, he raises a few interesting issues there. One is gentrification in the suburbs. Just like the issue of even there being a question of cars in the suburbs, like we probably assume a lot of people in the city at least, or a lot of people everywhere probably assume that, "Oh, well, if you live in the suburbs, you have a car," but it's not always the case. As our caller argues, it shouldn't have to always be the case. He also raises this idea of gentrification in the suburbs. Similarly, I think people might think, "Well, the suburbs are what they are. They're where you go, if you can afford a certain kind of private home, so that wouldn't be an area that is gentrified. It's already by definition, that," as opposed to how we think of gentrification, which is maybe a lower middle-class part of the city, and suddenly, richer people are moving in and changing the price of housing. Gentrification in the suburbs is a thing?

Arun: Yes, it certainly is, you do have this pattern of people who have been maybe they lived in a city, say, like New York City. You get your young professional couple, you have, say, your second kid and you start feeling crowded, or you just want to move on and that certainly is impacting. There are certainly these suburbs, say Maplewood as well, iconic suburbs, which have taken in lots of people from places like Brooklyn. Of course, that changes, not just the demographics, but it also changes the political culture of certain suburbs. This is not just in New York City area, it's happening across the country. Whether it's gentrification in, the sense of, say, 30-year-oldish, white professional couples or immigrants, professionals who have been moving for decades into say, the suburbs of Dallas. I was watching a clip the other day where this woman was saying, the suburbs, as President Trump likes to think of it, is not really the suburbs as we experience it here. The average, suburbanite is a 60-year-old Pakistani American woman. She's working, and she inhabits a very different reality than what he may be alluding to or drawing upon, and I think that's really going to become tested in November with the election.

Brian: Stephanie, in Morris County, you're on WNYC. Hi, Stephanie. Thanks for calling.

Stephanie: Hi, Brian. I find this conversation very interesting, because I think that so many issues surrounding racial inequality simply can't be solved with policy. For example, I formerly lived in Maplewood, and I enjoyed very much how diverse that was and everything, but I grew up in a town that I won't mention, but in horse country, New Jersey, where my brother and sister still live. They have fair housing and there's been a lot of resistance because the people that are living in the fair housing are minorities. They're in the minority in terms of the population of the town, and there've been a lot of comments, local politicians resisting, resistance of change. What I'm getting at is, if policy and law doesn't overcome social attitude and acceptance, and local politicians saying things like this town is becoming a sanctuary city and when Trump won, my nephew, who has since gone on to college, told me that many of his friends on his soccer team are from all different walks of life within the town and he's very comfortable and he was raised to be very comfortable, but some of the kids whose parents were Trump supporters ganged around other students, many of them have from South America and yelling, "Trump, Trump, Trump," in a leering, threatening way. I just don't know if imposing these policies and dropping people in an unwelcome space is really the answer. I would be curious what Arun has to say about that. Thank you very much.

Brian: Thank you very much. Arun, what do you have to say about that?

Arun: I think she's getting at a very important truth here, which is there's a huge question as to how much any administration can do or is willing to do. That certainly, there is a fair amount of skepticism about whether the Biden administration, if he were elected, would have both the political will and the resources to really change the suburbs in the way that say Trump is suggesting. I don't see that being the case, in part, because it's not something he's really playing up. He certainly has an ambitious plan. He talks about like investing $640 billion into affordable housing, talks about ending the discrimination that you really see landlords wield against people who have Section 8 vouchers and want to move into a decent neighborhood without much issue, and not necessarily stuck, confined to say, a Black town in say, Westchester. I think what the caller's getting at is this broader spectrum. You need players all along the way, down to municipalities, people who are willing to change the nature of their community and be both welcoming, but also not have the say, NIMBYism that prevents certain kinds of housing from being built. Westchester, the lawsuit that happened that was filed there in the late 2000s wasn't you know incredibly ambitious. We're talking about a few hundred units. That really would not have made a huge dent in the character of Westchester County as Craig Gurian, the plaintiff, he's with the Anti Discrimination Center say, "It's not really wholesale change, but even that small number of units gets fought tooth and nail," so it requires a much broader cultural shift on the part of the people who live in these communities to say, this is something we value. Is that real cultural shift happening now? I feel like given all the other issues that are playing out, this is lower down on the ladder and I feel like even with Biden advocating for these changes, I'd be surprised if this gets really the deep support it needs from the top, down to the bottom, down to the communities where they're willing to see this change through.

Brian: Even if Biden wins after Trump is running so hard on the prospect of Biden pursuing those kinds of policies, "destroying the suburb", but I think it also gets to the bottom line of the caller's question, which is how responsible should the government be for the integration of the suburbs? I know when we look at data Brookings Institution data, I'm not sure if this came from your article or from elsewhere, but whites comprise less than 10% of growth in the suburban population in America's 100 largest metros between the year 2000 and the year 2010. The caller from Morris County was asking, is integration best serve by government involvement or lack thereof? Is fair housing really a matter of the government saying, "Realtors, you can't discriminate against Black people," but that's different than affirmatively saying, "You have to build the housing here that's going to draw a more diverse population."

Arun: The reality is, Brian, no wholesale change in terms of racial discrimination happens without that kind of force behind it, without the power of the federal government. It's very, very difficult to undo housing segregation, or any other deep-rooted racially discriminatory practice that is embedded in our society, going back decades or even centuries. A hands-off approach will not make difference that these communities envision. It requires a lot of resources and a lot of will on the part of federal, of HUD or other actors to see through this, because there are a lot of communities, a lot of places where people are either indifferent to it or are dead set against it. I'm not only talking about completely overwhelming white communities. There are other places as well, where they're saying, "We like it here. We don't want to see that kind of change." They've bought into some of the, maybe the euphemisms or the dog whistle terms like good schools. What does good schools mean? For a lot of people, white or otherwise? Certainly for a lot of Asian Americans, good schools means exactly what we think it means. It means dominant white schools. With certain other people, it means schools where there aren't that many Black students. That change, undoing those kinds of practices is a lot of work and it certainly does require the federal government.

Brian: Raphael in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Raphael.

Raphael: Hi, great to talk to you. This is a really important issue, and I'm glad you're covering it. I wanted to mention that I grew up in a wealthy suburb of Boston, and my parents still live there. Recently, there was a ballot question that people in town were voting on about whether or not to change the zoning to allow for denser housing in certain parts of the city. A lot of people who, I think of as being like deeply liberal were really opposed to this, to the zoning changes. I think that it speaks to a broader problem, which is that a lot of people who consider themselves progressive aren't willing to look at this issue as having to do with racial justice, and instead think of it more as like a quality of life thing about like, "I don't really want the density of the town that I live in to change. Traffic's going to be worse, this and that. I don't want to support the real estate industry who is going to profit from building more dense housing." At the same time, I think that that's really a huge problem is that a lot of people just aren't really able yet, without much more discussion of this topic, to see this as deeply related to racial justice. I think ultimately the zoning changes passed, but it was really problematic, that conversation around it. I'm glad that you guys are talking about this.

Brian: Do you think, Raphael, that even in your parent's liberal, as you described it, suburb of Boston, that the Trump message lands to some degree? Because he tries to use the word race, even though what he's saying is racially coded to people who hear it that way, but he's talking more explicitly in terms of density, and the Democrats are going to destroy the suburban way of life, by which he means single-family homes with a lawn where you don't have to put up with that much density. Though of course, it gets very racial when he brings crime into it, because we know what that's code for when it comes out of Trump's mouth, but is his message when he's talking about preserving this institution of single-family homes resonating even in your parents' liberal Boston suburb?

Raphael: That's a really interesting question. I think that most of the people that were opposed to this housing thing are also totally offended by Donald Trump's rhetoric about the suburbs, and would never consider themselves to be on his side in any way, because it's so much more blatantly about race when he talks about it. I don't think that they recognize that their own attitudes about where they live are nonetheless tied into racial justice, and that they really need to question what they're typically opposed to, or rather whether or not they'd be willing to compromise on one thing, in order to allow for a certain change that might bring about more long-term change towards racial justice.

Brian: Raphael, thanks so much for your call. We really appreciate it. Arun, final word. If Biden is elected, and I don't know if you've covered this or thought about it, but do you think there's going to be a particular activist agenda to push further integration or desegregation of the suburbs, once they have that potentially receptive audience which they don't have now?

Arun: Brian, I think that there are other issues that are getting more attention and buy-in among Biden supporters, and I feel like this is one that is still building its way up. I do not expect, as much as Trump is fearmongering around this issue, we know very well what a Trump second term would mean on this issue. It would mean the status quo, which means that the AFFH rule that we've been discussing, would not be on the board. Conversely, I do not know. I think it's too early to say that a Biden administration really go whole hog on this. I just feel like there's not the political will for it.

Brian: WNYC's Arun Venugopal, his article and radio version, which dropped last week on Gothamist and at wnyc.org is, Are Trump and Biden Fighting About Abolishing the Suburbs or Desegregating Them? Arun, thanks so much.

Arun: Thanks, Brian.

Brian: That's our 30 Issues in 30 Days, election campaign segment for today, Issue 18.

Copyright © 2020 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.