[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We're in the home stretch of our 30 Issues election series with election day just a week from today and early voting already underway and after our threads on abortion rights, crime and criminal justice, education, immigration, climate policy, and democracy in peril, it's your money week to wrap up the series with economic issues always among the top issues in elections and very much so this year. We'll focus on Democratic and Republican approaches to fighting poverty tomorrow, to fighting inflation, on Thursday, and to affordable healthcare on Friday. Today, it's 30 Issues and 30 Days, Issue 27 housing as an issue in the New York State governor's race.

In the one debate that Kathy Hochul and Lee Zeldin had, which we aired live here on WNYC last week, there was an explicit housing question and we're going to play that full exchange for you now. It's two and a half minutes and it begins with a question for moderator Errol Louis from Spectrum News New York 1.

[start of audio playback]

Errol Louis: New York City in particular is seeing record high rents. New Yorkers upstate are getting priced out of starter homes. According to the New York State Unified court system, there have been more than 150,000 eviction filings this year alone. A lot of that, of course, is the result of the pandemic. What is your plan to ensure that families can access stable, affordable housing? What do you believe the state's financial commitment toward affordable housing should be?

Lee Zeldin: We need to be building more affordable housing and there are individuals and companies that want to invest here, but because it takes so long for them to be able to get approvals, the process is so drawn out that they're looking to other states and they're sending their money elsewhere. I just spoke to someone who's moving operations down to North Carolina instead of investing that money right here. We have people at the state level of bureaucrats drawing it out.

You can abuse the litigation process to draw this process out. Honestly, the last conversation that we're just having, the last question about improving the economy, creating more good paying jobs, that's going to be important for us to be able to have individuals who can afford to have that dream of home ownership.

Kathy Hochul New York, you can either have your first bid here in the basement of mom and dad's house or we can move to some other state and buy your own home in North Carolina. First-time home buyer credits is going to be a very important thing for us to ramp up in this state. Keeping the American dream alive as a New York dream is right now under attack. It gets reversed January 1st.

Kathy Hochul: I don't think I heard an answer in that, but let me talk about what we've done already before I respond. $25 billion in the last budget to build 100,000 more units of affordable housing. I go to more ribbon cuttings and groundbreakings from the Bronx to Brooklyn, to Rochester, to Buffalo and we're building this.

In the meantime, we have to continue helping those who were subjected to having a loss of income during the pandemic. They couldn't make their rent payments. Landlords were hurt, they were hurt. I'm the one who opened up billions of dollars my first week on the job to make sure we could help them be stabilized. Going forward, I have a plan that's going to help us with office space conversions in places like New York City.

Also, do the more building, but also break down some of the barriers. There's a lot of zoning, transit-oriented development makes sense. We've seen success that all over Long Island and in the lower Mid-Hudson area. There's policies that we can talk about, not just it's going to be better on January 1. You have to have real policies behind this.

[end of audio playback]

Brian Lehrer: That was the affordable housing exchange in last week's Hochul/Zeldin debate. Let's take a closer look. With me for this, Kathryn Brenzel, Senior Reporter at the New York Real Estate Oriented News Organization, The Real Deal. Her article on the debate was called Debate Stunner: Hochul and Zeldin support idea of more housing. Kathryn, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Kathryn Brenzel: Thanks so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: On the slightly snarky headline on your article, yes, they both said New York needs more housing. Did you hear a difference in their approaches? Was there a Democratic and Republican way to ease the affordable housing shortage that got articulated there?

Kathryn Brenzel: I think, in general, their answers were both telling and also not super informative at the same time. Zeldin approached the question by saying that the state has too many regulations that make it too difficult for-- He seemed to be talking about businesses, but I think the implication was he's also talking about developers. It's too difficult to build in the state.

You face the risk of facing litigation that'll hold it up, making it not worth the time or effort or money for developers and businesses to open business and build in the state. He did mention the need to ramp up first-time home buyer credits which I think was a fairly new topic for him. I don't think he's really talked about that in the past. Overall, his approach to the question was, we need to [unintelligible 00:05:26] we need to make it cheaper and easier to build and live in the state without offering any specific plan to do so.

Hochul's answer largely focused on things that her administration has already done. She mentioned the $25 billion five-year housing plan that was approved in the last budget. She also floated proposals that actually she had put forward in her budget this year, but that were ultimately taken out. She mentioned previous proposals that had not been successful previously. Indicated that she might--

Brian Lehrer: Let's dive even deeper on each of them. Zeldin's response at least as it sounded from that clip, basically only said the government should get out of the way of market forces. He had that one brief mention of ramping up first-time home buyer credits which we'll get to. I'll ask you to explain those, but his big specific emphasis was that it's too hard for investors.

He emphasized the problems for investors not so much the problems of people who can't afford their homes, but he said it's too hard for investors to get the approvals they need quickly in New York. They go and build housing in other states instead. Is it clear to you at The Real Deal what he's referring to or how he would make it easier for developers?

Kathryn Brenzel: Unfortunately, no. I think he seems to be just referring overall to the different approvals you have to go through to build in the state. He didn't really get into any specifics as to what aspects of the approval process he would approach. He didn't really mention how he would deter litigation in cases where there's opposition to development, so not a lot of specifics around that as of right now.

Brian Lehrer: What are those first-time home buyer credits that he supports and does Hochul support them too?

Kathryn Brenzel: That's a good question, because I was trying to figure out what he was specifically referring to. I know there's federal-level first-time home buyer credits. I know that there have been proposals at the state level, but unclear if he's looking to launch his own program or if he was referring to the federal credits.

Brian Lehrer: To Hochul's response, you key in your article on the fact that she touted her administration's $25 billion housing plan, which she projects will create or preserve 100,000 homes over five years. Do you know what specific policies that $25 billion is being spent on to achieve that goal?

Kathryn Brenzel: That's a good question. I think because this was approved in the latest budget, I know that there have been subsequent announcements detailing specific projects, but I don't know that we've seen a detailed layout of the specific areas that funding is going toward. I know there is a portion of that, that is dedicated specifically to individuals with disabilities and other vulnerable populations.

Brian Lehrer: She did say [unintelligible 00:08:55] Administration's Emergency Rental Assistance Program, though your article says, "Landlords have complained the tenants game that system." Can you explain that complaint?

Kathryn Brenzel: With the Emergency Rental Assistance Program, basically, the program itself ran out of money and there was an argument over whether or not tenants could continue to file applications to receive funding despite the fact that there was no funding to distribute. The reason for that is because by filing an application seeking rental assistance it offers eviction protections. The argument that landlords are making is that basically this has been serving as a way for their tenants to avoid eviction for the foreseeable future.

Brian Lehrer: I see. Is that originally a pandemic-related Rental Assistance Program?

Kathryn Brenzel: Yes, correct.

Brian Lehrer: You know that the governor mentioned zoning changes like transit-oriented development. I guess that means more density around train stations and also conversions of unused office space to residential use. Your article says, Mayor Adams is also expected to propose ways to make conversions easier. What stands in the way now, if you know?

Kathryn Brenzel: This is something the state has been talking about for years now. Basically, there needs to be changes to state law to make these conversions easier and the city also needs to make adjustments. We're talking logistical challenges in terms of the not every office space starting out is really habitable for long-term living quarters. You do need changes at both the state and city level to address that.

There is a state program that has funding for these conversions, but they're relegated to non-profits that control these properties and those specific projects would require deep affordability. We haven't yet seen conversions under that program, but there is an expectation that the governor and the city are working toward trying to figure out how to incentivize these conversions at a greater scale.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, is housing an issue for you in the governor's race in New York? What would you like the state to do? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or any questions for reporter Kathryn Brenzel from the Real Estate Oriented New York News Organization, The Real Deal. 212-433-WNYC here in issue 27 of our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series, housing as an issue in the New York State Governor's race. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, or tweet at @BrianLehrer.

Kathryn, to look further at what they said in the debate, I went to both the Hochul and Zeldin campaign websites. Hochul's has an explicit housing issue section, Zeldin's campaign website does not. Do you think he has reasons to avoid housing or downplay housing as an issue even though it's such a top concern and complaint of New Yorkers?

Kathryn Brenzel: I don't want to speculate, but I think, Zeldin has made crime and public safety the centerpiece of his campaign. I think, in some ways, perhaps focusing on affordable housing and other issues might distract from that and so far, it's been a somewhat effective strategy on his part. You've seen Hochul actually in the last couple of weeks hit back on the crime and public safety issues which may be in response to her narrowing lead over Zeldin. I also went through Zeldin's campaign website and if you go into some of the individual categories, there are very brief mentions of housing-related issues.

He does mention that he wants to end veteran homelessness, but I don't think there's a specific plan attached to that spelled out on the website. He does also mention his opposition to one of the zoning changes that Hochul had proposed which was to allow the building of accessory dwelling units on lots that are zoned for single-family use. Those seem to be the only real mentions, otherwise, I know in interviews he's given similar answers that he gave during the debate, which is that he acknowledges that there needs to be more housing, but beyond that there's not really a clear path to how to accomplish that.

Brian Lehrer: Let me focus on that issue that you just mentioned, that he goes to briefly on the economics portion of his website because I saw that too and I was going to ask you about it. It's one housing policy reference within that, and he criticizes Hochul for a proposal that she later withdrew that he calls a Hochul proposal to end single-family housing. That sounds apocalyptic and probably exaggerated, but what's the proposal from Hochul that he characterizes as to end single-family housing?

Kathryn Brenzel: The original proposal would've required localities in the state to allow accessory dwelling units. That could be a basement converted into an apartment. It could be an attached garage transformed into an apartment. It could also be a separate structure that's built in the backyard that serves as a housing unit--

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Let me jump in for a second. This isn't about construction of apartment buildings near single-family home neighborhoods or anything like that. This is about how single-family homeowners can use their own property?

Kathryn Brenzel: Correct. I think a lot of the rhetoric around this proposal did frame it as the end of single-family homes as you mentioned. I think something that is lost in that debate is you're not requiring the transformation of a single-family home into a multi-unit development. You're giving people the option to add these units to their properties. As a way to increase housing.

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Their income and housing, but there's a conservative paradox there. Now they want personal freedoms and property rights as core values, but in this case, it sounds like they want government to stop private homeowners from renting out their basements.

Kathryn Brenzel: I think too, you can extend that to the idea that Zeldin is saying that we make it too hard to build in the state, but then he opposes this measure that would allow you to do more with your property. His concern there, I know was he didn't like the idea that localities would relinquish their control over what could be built in their cities and towns. There were subsequent proposals that really eased up on that language that simply gave localities the option to legalize these units, but even that proposal didn't manage to move forward this year.

Brian Lehrer: It was withdrawn, but I guess the big government aspect of it that a Republican would object to was the state telling localities what they had to allow among their homeowners. Jonathan in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jonathan. Thanks for calling.

Jonathan: Hey, how's it going, Brian? I'm doing well. I really appreciate you guys, tackling this issue head-on in conversation. I just wanted to say that I think that allowing homeowners, developers, investors in New York real estate the opportunity to change zoning I think will lift a lot of weight and burden off a lot of people's shoulders, not just them, but also tenants in New York. I think that it's something that's not being addressed is how our government and the laws and regulations that go into New York real estate, especially in New York City.

I'm a native Brooklyn Knight and a real estate agent of almost a decade and I could tell you that it's a huge issue. There are all these office spaces that are vacant of the time it takes to even expedite a transition of zoning is an issue. It's going to be a huge issue right now. We have a housing crisis, a housing shortage and what it does is that it creates very dire circumstances for people who can't already afford to live in this city. I'm saying that also as a millennial. I'm 31 years old and I can see how it strains working-class people just to live and survive in this city there's a housing shortage.

On the other side of that, the zoning that exists is a little outdated. You have places that are very residential historically that are undergoing a form of development that's very clearly, I don't want to say it, but it's true gentrification and almost attack on the quality of life with people in that area because there's mixed-use zoning think about that. There are places in Brooklyn where people are going in next to houses and building skyscrapers. Then you have places there where people are okay with big buildings and they can't even convert to multi-families.

I think that it's a huge issue. I think that lessening the rules and regulations, I think they're so layered that I think you could pull back on them and you'd still have a maintenance of private living and quality of life and for owners that it's still great and will still be New York. I think in its current state it's really problematic for a lot of people. At the end of the day, what it's going to fall on is not just the people who are capable of investing. The people are the whim of the development and housing shortage in New York City.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks for all that, Jonathan. Let me ask you one follow-up question. As a Real Estate Agent, and with the various concerns that you just stated, do they come into conflict with each other at all? If you're seeing gentrification in a lot of neighborhoods, but there is also a desire to build taller buildings in some neighborhoods.

A lot of communities object that look, these taller buildings, they're mostly luxury housing or market-rate housing, and maybe the government requires 20%, 30%, 35% affordable below-market rate percentage in those buildings. The overall effect is still more market-rate housing. That gentrifies the whole neighborhood and ones up displacing people who are already there. Eventually, as prices go up, how do you see a way to resolve that conflict?

Jonathan: Do I think there's an immediate way to resolve it? No. I think that by first acknowledging that the variables are not so Black and white, I think is a huge step. I think that when developers are talking about also affordable housing, who is it affordable for? I think that and I say this with full complete confidence as someone who was born and raised in a very much a working-class Brooklyn.

It's like the affordability of even affordable units is not really affordable. I think all of it is quite skewed and I think that if we're talking about building, then the first thing we have to do is acknowledge the fact that the terminology that we're using isn't exact. It's who is it really helping?

I think at least in that, we could start breaking it down, but I think that we're so far past that point that the conversations, the verbiage that we're using, who it really applies to, and the reality of the experience versus what's on paper is so different. I think there're absolutely a conflict one another with there. There's too much regulation at the end of the day, what it really is supporting is the hyper-commodification of living in New York. It doesn't allow enough leeway at all-

Brian Lehrer: Jonathan, thank you so much.

Jonathan: -for all people.

Brian Lehrer: For your call. Thank you very much. Please call us again. There it is Kathryn. That's the ultimate challenge and the ultimate set of obstacles in New York and paradoxes. All the opposition that comes up from community after community when the city wants to add more housing, which in theory mathematically is needed to ease the housing shortage, which would then theoretically push down rents. Then there are all these developments with mostly market-rate housing and oh, look what happens. The neighborhood gentrifies rather than becomes more affordable.

Kathryn Brenzel: I think there has been some discussion as to what extent, adding market-rate housing to a neighborhood causes displacement or drives with brands. I know that the Furman Center had a report that digs into this issue.

One of the things that the caller said really stuck out to me is the idea that calling something affordable doesn't really tell you much. I know it's a [unintelligible 00:23:38] that the city uses that state officials use that the media uses, but it's not extremely helpful in telling you who can actually afford to live in a unit. I think that's something that I think we go a long way in changing how people think about housing. If we could address that issue, more head on.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. Andrea in the Bronx, you're on WNY C. Hi, Andrea.

Andrea: Hi. I'm calling because my daughter was living until September for the past year in a Basement Apartment in Jackson Heights. It had insufficient drainage outside and it was at the bottom of a driveway.

Even without Superstorms, it flooded three or four times. Apparently, it was an illegal apartment, but there were no precautions put in place for this. The owner of the three-family unit never made any sufficient changes and we even looked into having an architect look at it and he said, "There's no way that you could be able to make this into a truly habitable and legal unit."

Brian Lehrer: Does that leave you in support of or opposed to the idea that Hochul and Zeldin disagree on about whether to allow localities, to allow homeowners to rent out their Basement Apartments legally? Do you think that would make it better, because then it would be regulated or for any other reason?

Andrea: I think it should be regulated and if there is an issue of flooding, because as you know, we're in the age of superstorms, then it shouldn't be allowed to be a legal apartment. You have to look at it on a case-by-case basis. Maybe the way you have inspectors come in and tell you whether something is a legal space on a commercial basis, they should do the same thing on a homeowner's basis.

Brian Lehrer: Andrea, thank you very much and there's another paradox. Should we have fewer Basement Apartments in the post-hurricane Ida climate change era, because so many are subject to flooding? Should we have more Basement Apartments because it creates more affordable housing and homeowner rights?

With that unresolved, we leave it there with Kathryn Brenzel, reporter for the Real Estate Oriented New York News organization, the Real Deal and Issue 27 in our 30 issues in 30 Days election series, housing as an issue in the whole Cold Zeldin Governor's Race. Kathryn, thanks so much. We really appreciate it.

Kathryn Brenzel: Thank you.

Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.