[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We jump right in today by continuing our midterm election series, 30 Issues in 30 Days. If you're relatively new to the show or to the series, I'll just say as a pro-democracy public radio station, we do a 30 Issues in 30 Days series most election years to make sure we're serving you by discussing the issues that matter to all our lives, not just a horse race as many media outlets do, or not just personal attacks, which to easily grab the headlines.

In call-ins that we had this summer, you told us you want a lot of coverage of democracy in peril in this series. We will devote a third of it to that 10 of the 30 segments on democracy in peril beginning in a few weeks, so that's something that's coming up. You also asked for coverage of abortion rights as an issue in the campaign. We've been starting the series with that. Issues 1 and 2 were abortion rights as an issue in the New York State governor's race as an example of a blue state campaign, and the abortion rights ballot question in Kentucky as a leading example from a red state.

Today, we take it from the states to the national level, abortion rights as an issue in the race for control of Congress. Now, back in May, when it first became clear that the Supreme Court was about to overturn Roe v. Wade, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, Democrat, of course, introduced a bill to protect a woman's right to choose in federal law. Here's Schumer on the Senate floor on May 11th.

Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer: For half a century, Roe v. Wade has been the bedrock upon which women have secured the freedom to make their own decisions when it comes to their bodies. Few questions are more personal, more private, and more complicated than those involving a pregnancy. Few decisions should be more out of bounds to the whims and judgments of elected politicians, but that is precisely the doomsday scenario that now faces our country. Today's vote is one of the most consequential we will take in decades.

Brian Lehrer: The Schumer bill was defeated in the Senate that day, almost entirely along party lines, though Joe Manchin voted with the Republicans. More recently, Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican, of course, proposed a bill to limit abortion nationally to the first 15 weeks of pregnancy. States that have stricter abortion bans could keep them. States like New York and New Jersey and Connecticut and California with more liberal time frames would be forced to reduce them to 15 weeks. Here's Graham comparing his bill to Schumer's on Fox News Sunday last week.

Senator Lindsey Graham: Chuck Schumer introduced legislation several months ago that would allow abortion on demand up to the moment of birth like China and North Korea for the entire nation. What did I do in response? I said at 15 weeks when the baby can feel pain, it sucks his thumb, that we're going to ban abortion, except in the cases of rape, incest, life of the mother. We're talking almost four months into the pregnancy. It puts us in line with France's at 12 weeks. Germany, England is at 14 weeks. Only in Washington is it extreme to protect a baby at 15 weeks from an excruciating death.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Lindsey Graham last week on Fox News Sunday. The House Republican leader, Kevin McCarthy, last week unveiled a national Republican congressional campaign platform that included the phrase, "to protect the lives of unborn children." This issue is very much in play in congressional elections all over the country. With us now is Washington Post national political reporter Leigh Ann Caldwell. Among other things, she is co-author of The Washington Post morning politics newsletter called Early 202. 202 is Washington, DC's, area code if you didn't know. Leigh Ann, thanks a lot for joining us. Welcome to WNYC today.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Before we fact-check Lindsey Graham or anything else, can we start with a basic premise here? Undoing Roe v. Wade as a national abortion right in the Supreme Court's Dobbs decision does not mean the issue is returned to the states, a phrase we've heard people use a lot. It's returned to the political sphere as opposed to the judicial sphere or constitutional Supreme Court sphere. Returning it to politics means returning it to Congress every bit as much as it means returning it to state legislatures, right?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, that's absolutely right. Congress has the power to legislate this issue. It's just something that they haven't been able to do for decades. For so long, Congress has avoided the issue. They haven't taken votes on it in part because it wasn't necessarily a partisan issue. You had moderate Republicans who believed in abortion rights. You had moderate Democrats who opposed it.

It is this realignment that we have seen over the past couple of years where this really has become partisan. The votes that have been taken in Congress this year are the most partisan. When the House passed it again in July, it was along party lines. There were three Republicans who voted with the Democrats to expand access to abortion, but that was the only crossover.

In the Senate, as you mentioned in your lead when the Senate voted on it, just Joe Manchin voted against it. That's not to say that he believes in some access to abortion. He thought this bill went too far. For so long, it wasn't a partisan issue, but there also hasn't been the votes. You need 60 votes in the Senate to do anything on abortion and there have not been 60 senators that agree.

Brian Lehrer: This difference between returning it to the states and Congress having a role, how much is that an issue within the Republican Party right now? I'm asking you as a political analyst because it was mostly Republicans who, for years, said Roe should be overturned and return the issue to the states.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, it's a huge issue in the Republican Party. That is really how Republicans, especially at the national level, are washing their hands of this issue right now. They are saying that this should not be something that Congress should deal with, that it should be up to individual states, that the states and the voters in those states should decide what is appropriate for their state regarding abortion.

That absolves Republicans at the federal level of responsibility of doing something about it, of addressing this issue, even though they have when they were in the minority and they have-- even in the majority, it hasn't come up, but they have proposed bills on national bans on abortion in the past even before Roe v. Wade was overturned. They never passed. They never went anywhere. Now that it has become such a potent political issue, especially for Democrats, Republicans want to wash their hands. Many of them, I should say, want to wash their hands of this for the time being.

Brian Lehrer: Apparently, not Lindsey Graham and, apparently, not Kevin McCarthy, the House Minority Leader, since they're inserting the issue at this late date into the homestretch of the election campaign. Hold that thought for a minute. We'll get to that. Just on how much many Republicans running for Congress are running away from the issue right now to expand on the point you just made, the backlash to Dobbs has shown that most Americans are basically pro-choice, including many Republicans.

There was that bellwether referendum in Kansas, where abortion rights were expected to lose, but they won. There have been articles, some in The Washington Post, about how Republican congressional candidates are now scrambling to scrub their websites of anti-abortion rights language that seemed too extreme for politics now and softening their language. We heard an example of that at the state level yesterday with New York's Republican candidate for governor doing that. Do you have a good example or two of it happening in congressional races?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, absolutely. In Arizona, Blake Masters, who was running for Senate there immediately after Roe v. Wade was overturned, he really dug into that position saying he's 100% pro-life. He wants a ban on abortion. He had 100% pro-life on his website. Over the past few weeks, that is no longer there. They are really talking out of both sides of their mouths really on this issue. It's put them in a very difficult situation.

They're trying to enhance their anti-abortion, pro-life bona fides for the base for the percentage of Republicans, who this is a very important issue too because they don't want to turn those voters off. They also need to win a statewide election in many of these instances, including in Arizona with Blake Masters. An outright ban is just not popular there. He's trying to straddle the issue very carefully, but Republicans have been painted in large part by Democrats and in some part by their own doing and how they talk about it as extremists on this issue. It definitely seems to be being absorbed by voters.

Brian Lehrer: If you're just joining us, folks, it's our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series segment 4 today, issue 3, abortion rights as an issue, and the race for control of Congress with Leigh Ann Caldwell from The Washington Post. Leigh Ann, the Lindsey Graham 15-week abortion ban, why did he propose that just as other Republicans were trying to downplay the whole topic of abortion rights as you were just describing?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Well, just a little bit of color here to start. When Senator Lindsey Graham held his press conference on announcing his 15-week abortion ban, Republicans were beside themselves, Republicans in the Senate. They were blindsided. They didn't know that that was happening and they thought it was really bad politics. When Lindsey Graham held his press conference, he was the only senator standing up there.

He had supporters from the activist groups, the anti-abortion groups standing behind him. Even Lindsey Graham admitted that it was very difficult for those four or five different groups in the room because of how hard it is to coalesce the party on a timeline or one talking point, one policy on abortion. He settled on the 15 weeks. He says because that was the basis for the Dobbs decision.

The Jackson Women's Health case that went to the Supreme Court was challenging the 15 weeks. He also did it because he says that the party needs to have unity on where they stand on the issue so that voters know. He says that it is in line with European countries and he thinks it's a legitimate timeline to have abortion access for the first 15 weeks of term. He did it.

His colleagues in the Senate immediately said, "Oh, no, wait a minute. This should be left up to the voters in the states. Congress is not going to address this issue right now. Maybe down the line after we hear from all the states," they say, "that then we will do some sort of national law regarding abortion." Lindsey Graham really stepped out front and the timing was not what Republicans wanted so close to an election. They don't want to be talking about this issue and they think that he really muddled their message.

Brian Lehrer: Do we believe that most Senate Republicans really want it to be left to the states until all the states have spoken? Isn't it just a matter of politics? If they were to have a 60-vote, filibuster-proof majority, for example, we would see a national abortion ban just like Mitch McConnell, the Senate Minority Leader, said is possible if Republicans take control?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Possibly, it is absolutely politics right now. I think that McConnell has said it's not going to happen because he doesn't have the votes. Republicans have been wanting a ban on abortion for a very long time. That is why they worked very aggressively to have judges on the Supreme Court who they think were very conservative on this issue and might overturn Roe v. Wade, which is, in fact, what happened. Politics are very much in play here. All of this is political posturing.

What's really interesting to me and something we explored in our newsletter a few weeks ago is how the definition of pro-life has been changing for Republicans since the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Previously, Roe, for many pro-life, was an absolute ban on abortion or a six-week ban or, as Lindsey Graham says now, a 15-week ban. Republicans have been unable, they have found, now that this is no longer an esoteric issue but an issue that is front and center and very real life for many people that they can't agree on what pro-life actually means.

If they do take control of the House of Representatives like they are expected to do, we should expect there to be abortion legislation. Will it get a vote? Will it come up for a vote? That's up to leader Kevin McCarthy. In the Senate, if there's only 50, 51 Republican senators if they do take back the Senate, I don't expect this to be brought up to the floor. I don't think this is going to be a priority.

Brian Lehrer: Because McConnell knows it would lose?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, McConnell doesn't like to lose and so it is politics. He does not bring things up to the floor that will fail. He does it very rarely, did it with Obamacare, attempt to repeal the Affordable Care Act. We saw how that went. People don't like that he doesn't like to lose. I think that, right now, the discussion is definitely in the House of Representatives. Even they in their commitment to America were very vague on the issue and did not define what pro-life meant even though they say that they will protect unborn children is what they say and mothers. Obviously, that is something that is debatable if banning abortion would actually protect mothers.

Brian Lehrer: Right. As a footnote to history, you mentioned that Lindsey Graham hung his 15-week abortion ban on the original Dobbs case. People will forget. This is why it's going to be a footnote to history, I think, that that Mississippi case that went to the Supreme Court, Dobbs, was a 15-week abortion ban. It was not a total abortion ban. It was a 15-week abortion ban and there were other people who filed suits.

Maybe even the Mississippi attorney general, even while the law that the Mississippi state legislature passed was 15 weeks. Then other people said or Mississippi itself said, "Yes, while you're at it, why don't you throw out Roe altogether?" [chuckles] The Supreme Court said, "Yes, that's a great idea. We think we'll do that." It was a 15-week abortion ban in the Dobbs case in Mississippi, but the Supreme Court went much further.

By the way, the phrase that we've been talking about that people use, "Return abortion to the states." Listener tweets, "States don't get abortions. Leave it to those who do. People." That's an interesting take on that phrase from a listener. Leigh Ann, the comparison that Lindsey Graham made in the clips we played, the comparisons between what he's proposing at 15 weeks and what Schumer proposed that failed along party lines, is Graham characterizing Schumer accurately and is he characterizing France and Germany and England accurately in that clip on how many weeks abortion rights are limited to in those other Western countries?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I don't know. That is out of my purview, unfortunately, but this is what Republicans say. I'm not sure of the ins and outs of law overseas, but this has become a very common talking point among Republicans that Democrats are extreme on the issue. They are now using the term "abortion on demand," which is a very grotesque way to put it and also obviously dismisses all of the decisions and the agony and the medical history and needs of a woman and a family when they use that term. They say that the United States is far outside of what the rest of the world allows on this issue.

Like I said, I'm not really sure because this is a discussion of what's happening in this country. It is a talking point that the base is really effective with the Republican base, but they're not going to be persuaded on this issue. People who are anti-abortion, anti-access to abortion, they already believe what they believe. Where the discussion and the debate is right now is in the middle, the moderates, the independent voters. I'm not sure that that is really effective right now, now that abortion access is being stripped from people around this country. The debate takes on a different tone and a different meaning now that abortion is not legal for many people.

Brian Lehrer: Well, about Graham's characterization of the Schumer bill, what was in the Schumer bill? What have all the Democrats in the Senate, except Joe Manchin, signed onto?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, it codifies Roe v. Wade, which is viability at about 24 weeks, but it also does allow these abortions past 24 weeks when it is medically necessary that does nothing to outlaw abortion in those instances. That is something that Schumer or that Manchin thought went too far. Senator Susan Collins of Maine, a Republican, she has her own abortion access bill with Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia.

The thing that she really wanted to address to change from the Democrat's bill is religious liberty, ensuring that religious institutions have the ability to practice their beliefs and their faith on this issue. That was a major change. The bill does expand access to abortion, creates fewer limits, and it is because the Democratic Party believes that it is absolutely the right of-- most of the Democratic Party, I should say, the right of a mother and her medical professional and her family to decide what is best, especially when her life is on the line.

Brian Lehrer: Confirming some of these Europe comparisons, we've been looking them up in the last few minutes while we've been talking. From Reuters in June, it says, "Technically, abortion is illegal altogether in Germany. However, it is allowed under certain circumstances and the procedure must be performed within 12 weeks of conception." From the AP in July, it says, "Last year, French lawmakers passed a law extending the abortion deadline from 12 to 14 weeks and allowing midwives to perform the procedure."

It sounds like Lindsey Graham is mostly accurate when he's talking about what's going on in Europe. On the Susan Collins bill and on what you said about most of America being in the middle on this, New Yorker magazine historian Jill Lepore had a piece recently. I want to read one paragraph from it. This is about the Schumer bill that failed. "Unfortunately, for Schumer, the Senate vote on the Women's Health Protection Act serves Republicans in addition to Democrats because the bill is out of step with public opinion on abortion. The majority of Americans favor keeping abortion legal, but with some restrictions."

"You can't be a little bit pregnant, but you can be something other than uncompromisingly pro-life that is opposed to abortion even in cases of rape, incest, or danger to the life of the mother, or unwaveringly pro-choice permitting abortion into the last weeks of a healthy pregnancy. In that place in between," writes Lepore, "a haunted place of difficulty, anxiety, relief, and grief is where most Americans stand," Jill Lepore in The New Yorker recently. I'm curious, Leigh Ann, if you agree with that as a description of public opinion and as political analysis of how the Schumer bill may actually backfire and help Republicans.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I don't know. It's beautifully written, what she said. I think that public opinion is very hard to discern. One of the things that Republicans used to say constantly leading up to this Dobbs decision is that abortion has always been very difficult to pull because there are so many nuances on the issue. We have Washington Post reporters out in the country, outside of DC, have been talking to people who say they are absolutely pro-life, but they want exception A, B, C, D, E, and F. That's really hard to pull.

I think it really gets back to what people are faced with, are people faced with an all-out ban on abortion, which has proven to be absolutely unpopular and what people do not want. That seems to be very clear. Then the different gradients beyond that are much more difficult. I think that it's hard to determine and how that is going to result in an election unless it's a very clear-cut line. With the issue of abortion, it's just not. People also have different values based on what they themselves would do and believe and what they would enforce on other people. Those also tend to be very different things.

Brian Lehrer: Very important.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I think it's very, very complicated. Right now, because there is a threat of abortion going away in many of these places or already taken away, then it's a much easier choice. Democrats do have a history of overreaching, sometimes on this issue but on many issues. There tends to be a backlash, but I don't think that's where we're at right now. That's not the question. Right now, the issue is there is a backlash against Republicans who are imposing this on women around this country.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, late-term abortions are almost always based around health concerns of the mother or on an amniocentesis diagnosis of a serious fetal abnormality and things like that.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I'm glad you said that because it reminds me of the statistic that 92% of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks. Over 98% of abortions take place in the first 20 weeks. The number of abortions, even after this viability of 24 weeks, is so, so rare. A lot of times, Republicans want to place the discussion on that number, that post-viability phase of a pregnancy, but it impacts very few people.

When it does, obviously, it's very traumatic and a very difficult decision in most instances, or medical necessity. That is not where most people live. Like most people, that doesn't happen that often, and so it is an instance where Republicans are perhaps overreaching on this, talking about the extremes and something that very rarely impacts people's lives.

Brian Lehrer: It's our 30 Issues in 30 Days midterm election series, issue number 3, abortion rights as an issue in congressional campaigns with Leigh Ann Caldwell, who's reported on this a lot for The Washington Post. Leigh Ann, we should be clear about the Lindsey Graham bill. It is not that compromise that Jill Lepore hints at in The New Yorker. It does not protect abortion rights until 15 weeks. It makes 15 weeks a maximum but allows all those red states that have basically total bans now to keep them, right?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, correct. Correct, it does. That's a really, really good point. Then for those states like California, who, just yesterday, moved legislation in the state to expand access to abortion to ensure that California is a safe haven state that women can go to and travel to, to receive abortions. This Lindsey Graham bill would impose these federal restrictions on states like California.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, there's a question that you might answer for yourselves if you want to call in on this. If there was a national abortion right until 15 or 20 weeks, let's say, but also a limit of 15 or 20 weeks other than for rape, incest, or extreme health problems for the mother or a diagnosis of the fetus, is that a national compromise you would support? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or anything else you want to say or ask on the topic of abortion rights as an issue in congressional campaigns on our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series. This is issue number 3. 212-433-WNYC. We'll take your calls right after this.

[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. 30 Issues in 30 Days, our midterm election series, issue number 3, abortion rights as an issue in congressional campaigns. Our guest is Leigh Ann Caldwell, who writes The Early 202 morning politics newsletter for The Washington Post but also has covered the abortion rights issue a lot. Let's take a phone call from somebody who knows more about what European abortion rights laws are like. Kate in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Kate.

Kate: Hey, Brian, thank you so much for all of your thoughtful coverage on abortion. Yes, I used to work in reproductive rights in the US and in Europe. It's really disingenuous comparison when Lindsey Graham talks about France and other countries in Europe because countries like that that do have cut-off, that 12 or 15 weeks, often have a lot of things that we do not like free access to contraception, free access to emergency contraception like Plan B or the morning-after pill widely available, abortion care in regular healthcare settings so people don't have to travel miles and miles to get to clinics.

Abortion is usually free. All these reasons are the things that push people later in pregnancy here in the US don't exist in those countries. Then beyond 12 or 15 weeks, there are huge exemptions beyond that cut-off that often include mental health care, and then not to mention all the free childcare and other healthcare coverage that exists for folks who do want to continue their pregnancies. Graham has been making this comparison for years every time he introduces these bans and it's never been a fair comparison.

Brian Lehrer: Kate, thank you so much for your call. We really appreciate it with the context of your background. Leigh Ann, is anyone proposing a compromise position like the one implied in the Jill Lepore article in The New Yorker? I read something about a Susan Collins bill. You mentioned Susan Collins briefly, but I'm unclear.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I think that this Susan Collins one would be the closest to that. She did it with Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia, a Democrat. Of course, he was Hillary Clinton's VP nominee if you go back in the day.

Brian Lehrer: 2016. It feels like such a long time ago, 2016, right?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: It does. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: I think 2016 feels as long ago now as 1950 felt in 1980.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I had to think. It was 2016, right? Oh, yes, [laughs] but that's why you might know his name. I had an interview with him and he's one of those people where this issue is very difficult for him as a Catholic. He doesn't want to impose his beliefs on other people. He and Susan Collins worked on this legislation and they think that it affects the right balance. It is 24 weeks access to abortion up until viability. 24 weeks, they think that it is a very clean codification of Roe v. Wade.

It hasn't come up for a vote. Senator Schumer hasn't entertained it. It was introduced and then it didn't go anywhere and no one really talked about it again. We are in campaign season. We're in a political season and so this has become a political issue. It has always been a political issue. Right now, it is really a political issue and so people aren't really either-- They're not looking for answers at the federal level anyway.

Brian Lehrer: Jennifer in Wall Township in New Jersey on this idea of a compromise that might reflect majority public opinion in this country of a 15-week protection, but a 15-week ban other than in extreme circumstances. I think Jennifer is calling to say, "No deal." Is that right, Jennifer? You're on WNYC. Hi.

Jennifer: Hi. Yes, that's correct. I think anywhere you place it, you're going to be placing policy on women's autonomy and their bodily rights. I understand that that would be considered a compromise in some people's opinion, but it certainly still qualifies as a ban on women, I guess, their right to their bodies.

Brian Lehrer: If somebody were to argue that, functionally, it might protect abortion rights pretty aggressively in this country because, right now, we have all these red states that are banning it almost entirely. They wouldn't be able to do that. They would have to offer abortion rights up until 15 weeks under that Susan Collins type of a bill. As we just heard from Leigh Ann, almost every abortion in the United States, except under extreme circumstances, takes place before 15 weeks. It would probably, or at least arguably, legalize many, many, many more abortions and it would outlaw under a compromise like that. Would that sway you at all?

Jennifer: I do appreciate that. I agree that most abortions are performed before that 15-week mark. It would be, of course, thankfully, some type of protection for states who don't have access to abortion and some sort of protection. I think, ultimately, it really is a difficult position because, at its core, you're still regulating women's bodies.

Brian Lehrer: Jennifer, thank you so much for your call. We really appreciate it. Sally in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sally.

Sally: Hi, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. I wanted to thank you and all the people who are speaking today about offering a compromise. I feel that, to use the words of the poet, Yehuda Amichai, "The ground where you are right is very dry and cracked, and if you keep standing on it, it just gets drier and more crack." To bring some nuance into this and to maybe even open up to the idea that after 15 weeks, there is a heartbeat. I'm not a pro-choice person. I have had to really--

Brian Lehrer: You mean you are a pro-choice person.

Sally: I am pro-choice. I'm sorry, yes. I've had two abortions early before 12 weeks. I also have had four live births, so I come from a whole point of view that there is a life inside of me and that I have rights as a mother as I have rights as a woman. I think the 15-week ban is very sensible, except in extreme cases.

Brian Lehrer: Those extreme cases. What would you say to the previous caller who says, "Yes, but it's still policing women's bodies"? Ultimately, you're feeling as you just articulated should be. Your choice as to when you wouldn't do it anymore and somebody else should be able to make their choice.

Sally: What would I say to that person? I think that it's more nuanced than just policing women's bodies. I think that there is something inside of your body.

Brian Lehrer: Sally, thank you very much. Well, a little representation of how conversations might be going on about this, about various proposals, Leigh Ann, at people's dinner tables and all over the place, huh?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, it's a debate that has really flipped obviously this year for Republicans and the pro-life movement. The anti-abortion movement has been working toward this day for 50 years. The pro-choice movement has been warning about this day for many years. Now, we are here and the conversation is extremely nuanced. Nuanced conversations are usually not good politics and often don't turn into good policy either. It's very difficult and people have a lot of choices moving ahead. This is not something that is going to be cited in this midterm election. This is something that is going to be an issue for many, many years and many, many elections down the road.

Brian Lehrer: Now, to finish up, we've been talking so much about the Senate in this conversation, the Chuck Schumer bill, the Lindsey Graham bill, the Susan Collins bill, which are all at different points on the spectrum on this issue. Let's finish up with the House. When the Supreme Court ruled in Dobbs, Nancy Pelosi said this.

Nancy Pelosi: With Roe and their attempt to destroy it, radical Republicans are charging ahead with their crusade to criminalize health freedom. In the Congress, be aware of this. The Republicans are applauding a nationwide abortion ban. They cannot be allowed to have a majority in the Congress to do that, but that's their goal.

Brian Lehrer: That was Nancy Pelosi. Here's the House Minority Leader, Kevin McCarthy.

House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy: This great nation can now live up to its core principle that all are created equal. Not born equal, created equal. Americans celebrate this historic victory because we know it will save the lives of millions of children and it will give families hope. As encouraging as today's decision is, our work is far from done.

Brian Lehrer: "Our work is far from done." Nancy Pelosi and Kevin McCarthy just after the Dobbs decision. Leigh Ann, you described earlier how many Republican congressional candidates have been walking away from that kind of Kevin McCarthy language after the Kansas abortion referendum, in which it was revealed that even a lot of Republicans want basic abortion rights in this country, and yet McCarthy released that so-called "Commitment to America" congressional campaign platform last week that included the phrase, "to protect the lives of unborn children." What's going on?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: It did include that phrase because that is the only thing that Republicans right now in Congress are able to agree on. There were no specifics onto what that means. Does that mean a complete ban? Does that mean no exceptions? Does that mean 6 weeks, at 15 weeks, at 20 weeks? Republicans in the House can be more conservative, more extreme than in the Senate.

They obviously have districts instead of states they have to represent. This abortion issue could very well cost Kevin McCarthy some pickup seats, some ability to win seats that are on his target list. It happened in the special in New York when Pat Ryan-- In August, he won. He's a Democrat. The Republican was supposed to win in that special election. Pat Ryan leaned into the abortion issue very heavily in his campaign.

To the surprise of pretty much everyone, Democrats and Republicans, Pat Ryan won. Republicans see the warning signs on this issue. That's why his commitment to America, he had to include a line about protecting the lives of unborn children. That was just a line. It was a talking point and it can mean many things to many people. It is proof that Republicans are not united on this issue, especially as they now know that this is bad politics for them.

Brian Lehrer: 30 Issues in 30 Days, our midterm election series. Our first three issues have been on abortion rights. Starting tomorrow, we'll go on to our set on immigration as an issue. We'll do our next two on that, issues 4 and 5. For today, we thank Leigh Ann Caldwell, who writes The Early 202 morning newsletter, politics newsletter for The Washington Post. She's also what they call The Washington Post live anchor, doing interviews and stuff. She has reported a lot on abortion rights in national politics. Leigh Ann, thank you so much for all your insights today.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Thanks for having me, Brian.

 

Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.