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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Thanks to Brigid Bergin for filling in yesterday while I was off for Rosh Hashanah, and Happy New Year. Shana Tova to all our Jewish listeners celebrating the beginning of the year 5783, as the Hebrew calendar has it, 5783. We could pretend it's the '80s again, which by the standards of today would feel like a gentler time but here we are in election season 2022 by the Julian calendar, the one we use primarily in the world today, and by that calendar, or any other election day in the United States is six weeks from today.

Right now on the show, we officially launch on midterm election season series 30 issues in 30 days. That's all the weekdays between now and Friday, November 4th, the Friday before election day. We'll have a 30 issues issue on every edition of this show, between now and then. Not to drown you in any more calendar math but for the record, it's actually 30 issues in 29 days this year.

That's because I was off for the holiday yesterday. We held the launch back until today. We will do two today to catch right up but that's just bookkeeping. 30 issues in 30 days starts right now. One program note about this series before we dive into issue number one, some of you will remember the series of call ins we did for different age groups different generations this summer, asking what your biggest midterm elections issue is this year.

The number one issue across all age groups, wait for it, think about it, make a prediction. The number one issue across all age groups from our callers in your teens on day one to our caller who had just turned 100 at the end of that week, that consensus number one issue was democracy in peril. As a pro-democracy public radio show, we hear you and we will devote a full third of our 30 issues this year to democracy in peril.

That's 10 out of the 30 issues. We'll do those 10 coming up in a few weeks but also high on your agenda was the issue of abortion rights. We launched the series now with our first three issues being on abortion rights in this fall's election campaigns, beginning with a kind of red state blue state comparison. Abortion rights as an issue in the New York State Governor's race, and later this hour, the abortion rights referendum on the ballot in Kentucky.

What will people decide in a pretty red state with a pretty tough trigger law now that they have direct democracy there to do it with a referendum and how is that campaign being fought? 30 issues in 30 days, one into this hour. Issue number one, abortion as an issue in the New York State Governor's race. As Attorney General Letitia James reminded the public in a press release after Roe vs. Wade was overturned the summer.

New York guarantees the unqualified right to abortion up to 24 weeks post-fertilization. Abortion is permitted after 24 weeks if the fetus is not viable, or if the pregnant person's life or health including mental health is at risk. In New York, minors may responsibly access abortion or other reproductive health services, the Attorney General says without parental notification or consent.

In addition to that, after the Supreme Court ruling in June, New York State has now allocated $35 million to help abortion providers in the state handle the extra patients coming in from other states that have just restricted access more than before. Here's Governor Kathy Hochul on CNN in June touting the state's pro-choice history.

Governor Kathy Hochul: We had abortion legal in our state since 1970 so this is deeply personal to all of us as the keepers of the flame. We support this right. We cherish this right and we feel for our sisters across this country will no longer have access to control over their own bodies.

Brian Lehrer: Governor Hochul who of course is running for election to a full term, and by contrast, Republican Candidate, Lee Zeldin, was caught on tape by Spectrum News at a campaign event in the spring with anti-abortion activists promising to be the first governor in a long time to be on their side.

Lee Zeldin: It's been many, many, many decades, I don't remember the last time York State had a pro-life governor. It's been a very long time. We're talking about generations past.

Brian Lehrer: He promised at least one high-level state commissioner appointment would go to an opponent of abortion rights.

Lee Zeldin: Go out and make sure we're getting the most qualified person to be the health commissioner who is also pro-life.

Brian Lehrer: That was Lee Zeldin before the Supreme Court ruled and the backlash to it began. Now he's trying to distance himself from those remarks. Here is Zeldin speaking just last week.

Lee Zeldin: I'm not in this race because of abortion. I'm not standing here today proposing to roll back that law. I am not planning to roll back that law.

Brian Lehrer: We'll play more clips of Zeldin and Hochul as we go. With us now as our first guest on 30 issues in 30 days this year, and to explain the place of abortion rights as an issue in the governor's race is the New York State Public Radio Capitol Bureau Chief, Karen DeWitt. Hi, Karen. Always great to have you on. Welcome back to the show.

Karen DeWitt: Yes, thanks, Brian. I'm super excited to be the first guest launching this really important series.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Can we start with what the law currently is in New York State before we even get to the candidates? I mentioned the state attorney general's press release reminding everyone there is an unqualified right to abortion in New York until 24 weeks after fertilization. That may have surprised some listeners because it's not an unqualified right all the way through pregnancy in this blue state. Why is it 24 weeks? When was that law passed?

Karen DeWitt: It was passed in 2019 by the New York State Legislature when Democrats finally took over the state Senate. The assembly had been democratic for many years. Essentially what they did is they codified the abortion rights and the Roe v Wade decision into law saying, "Hey, there might be a day when Roe v Wade is overturned. Just in case that happens," and of course, it did in June of this year.

They are also trying to do little tweaks, as you mentioned, to strengthen abortion rights, providing money for women from states where abortion is banned to come here to New York and get an abortion if that's something that's appropriate for them. Also, we should mention this isn't a law yet but they did do first passage of a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the rights of a pregnant person to choose abortion in New York State and that, of course, is in reaction to the Dobbs decision, and to, rumblings among Republicans on the federal level to now perhaps, pass legislation to outlaw abortion.

Brian Lehrer: 24 weeks, as you mentioned, is basically the standard that existed under Roe, the called viability of the fetus to live outside the womb on its own roughly 24 weeks. The state legislature codified it as 24 weeks and after that, abortion is still legally available if the life or health, including mental health of the mother, is at risk, says the New York State law. Does that make it in effect legal throughout pregnancy?

Karen DeWitt: Yes, I think that it does and I would also say I think that's where most New Yorkers stand on the issue. There was a recent Siena poll that found, most New Yorkers, including half of Republicans, support abortion rights, but they don't want it completely unlimited. They seem to want reasonable restrictions and I guess the consensus with that is that that's a reasonable restriction. After viability, you have to really have a reason for wanting to terminate the pregnancy.

Brian Lehrer: I imagine, no, or hardly no pregnant person is ever told, "No, this would be illegal for you under state law." I imagine anyone seeking a late-term abortion is doing so at least for their basic mental health and can get a doctor to certify that.

Karen DeWitt: Right. Well, of course, because of HIPAA laws, we don't really know all those details but, anecdotally that's what people say, and people who have come forward for having late-term abortions talked about what the specific reasons were that their life was in danger or the fetus was just not going to be able to live once it was born.

Brian Lehrer: That's the law and Hochul supports it. What do you make of the Lee Zeldin clips we played from before and after the Supreme Court rules? How much of a flip flop or revisionism on his own position are we seeing?

Karen DeWitt: Well, it's interesting and those clips came from the Business Council meeting last week where Zeldin did give the time to reporters to really talk about this issue and I appreciate that he did that. Like it or not, Zeldin says he's not running because of abortion and I'm sure that he wasn't. Like it or not, that's becoming a big issue in the 2022 Governor's race. Governor Hochul is really using it to define Zeldin saying his positions on abortion are too extreme. He shouldn't be elected and she has the campaign money to make that stick.

Surely many of our listeners who watch TV and TV news have seen those ubiquitous ads on every TV news program. That really helps her with voters who, as we just discussed, want abortion kept legal but they don't want it to be completely unrestricted. Highlighting that he's voted on bills that would prohibit abortion even in the cases of rape, incest or the life of the mother is a way to define him in a way that they're hoping that voters will not vote for him, even if they might have some concerns about rising crime rates or the economy which are two of Zeldin issues that he's trying to highlight.

Brian Lehrer: We'll play a clip of an excerpt, let's say from one from that Hochul ad on Zeldin and abortion that you refer to. To be clear, the statement that he made or the news conference that he did with reporters at the Business Council meeting last week, that's where the third of the three clips that we played came from where he said he's not running to change the abortion laws. We did have those two clips from before row where he said, ''Oh, I would be the first pro-life governor in a long, long time.''

That he would appoint a pro-life health commissioner when he was speaking to an anti-abortion rights group. When he promised in that clip to appoint a pro-life health commissioner, what could that mean? What powers over abortion rights or abortion access would a health commissioner who opposes abortion rights or pro-life as he put it have?

Karen DeWitt: It could mean a lot because everything in New York State law is about the regulations. The health department carries out anything health related procedures like abortion. In fact, they just reported on a story this week about the nursing home minimum staffing standards. The story was all about the health department and how they have the power to interpret a law that the legislature passed. The argument was it wasn't in the spirit of the law but they could pull back on the money that Governor Hochul provided, the $35 million to strengthen rights and access to abortion.

There's all kinds of ways that they could really tie that up if they wanted to. It's interesting about Zeldin saying that to his supporters about the pro-life health commissioner. Because he didn't deny it on Friday, but definitely I think he wishes that he could walk that back. At the same time he needs those voters. He needs leaning and Republican voters, so he's really in a tough position. In the past, a lot of Republicans have run and won at least certainly in the state legislature on anti-abortion.

They held anti-abortion views, but they weren't highlighted in their campaign because they would always say, "Roe v. Wade, it settled law, it'll never be overturned, there's nothing to discuss." I think Zeldin probably wishes he could turn back the clock and just have that issue under the radar screen. As we're seeing it's not happening, people care about it and it's definitely a big issue in this campaign.

Brian Lehrer: In the news conference last week, did he walk back the promise to appoint a pro-life health commissioner? Did he say no, I want really a pro-life health commissioner. I changed on that or I'll appoint a health commissioner who's only a little pro-life, like a little bit pregnant. How did he tweak it if at all?

Karen DeWitt: He didn't walk that back. He was asked, ''Would you issue any executive orders that would restrict abortion?'' He didn't really answer that despite repeated tries from my colleague with the New York Post, Zach Williams, trying to pin him down. He just kept wiggling away from it. He did say he'd listen to the will of the people and I'm using taxpayer money to fund out of state abortions. He said, ''New York is not a dark red state.'' He seemed to indicate if people want that then I won't dispute it or try to change those rules. There's a lot of questions as you're saying and I think that's what concerning some people right now.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we welcome your calls on our 30 issues in 30 days. Issue number one, abortion rights as an issue in the New York State Governor's race. What would you like to see New York State abortion law, abortion policy be? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Do you have thoughts or questions about the Zeldin or Hochul positions on the issue? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer for Karen DeWitt, the Capitol Bureau Chief for New York State Public Radio.

Karen, just let me focus in on what you were just saying for a minute and then we're going to turn more in-depth to the new additional protections the state has enacted since the Supreme Court stubs decision in June and Hochul and Zeldin's position on those. You reported on the radio that when pressed Zeldin would not rule out any executive action restricting abortion access. He wouldn't rule out making any executive decision unilaterally that restricts abortion access, even though he said he's not running on it. How did he leave that door open?

Karen DeWitt: He just didn't completely answer the question and it seemed like he was, but when I listened back to exactly what he said, he didn't completely rule that out. He didn't make a pledge no, I won't do that and that's I guess his reporters were always trying to get politicians to define themselves pretty exactly and make pledges and he did not do that.

That leaves open the question and puts him in a vulnerable position on this issue because as we discussed, he needs Republican voters. He needs his base if he wants to go forward, but he also needs to get some Democrats and some independent voters. That's going to be tough to do if he can't define himself completely on this issue.

Brian Lehrer: In a minute, we'll turn to the new additional protections the state has enacted since the Supreme Court stops decision to help women coming from other states to New York. Because of the decision, we'll take your phone calls, we'll see where Hochul and Zeldin stand on these new things and how much money the taxpayers are going to donate to it. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, it's our 30 issues in 30 days election series for this midterm election season. Just starting out, issue number one, abortion rights as an issue in the New York State Governor's race with Karen DeWitt, Capitol Bureau Chief for New York State Public Radio stations 212-433-WNYC is our phone number 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer and Michael in Westchester you're on WNYC. Hi Michael?

Michael: Hello. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Okay.

Michael: Thank you for covering this issue, it's very important and I'm an odd call because I'm a male and I'm well above my reproducing years. About four or five years ago, I would've probably thought like many listeners that New York is such a blue state even if the governor or the health commissioner is pro-life, it's not really going to change things.

About three years ago my daughter got cancer and without going into the long story when a young woman is in her reproducing years the chemo can do damage to her reproductive system. I'll fast forward to the end and say it's a happy story my daughter is healthy and she's in college and she's doing well.

Brian Lehrer: Oh good.

Michael: That's great, but in the interim, she had to go in for IVs and to fast forward through more medical and health insurance stuff than you would ever want to hear on the ear. The fact that New York State had a pro-choice governor and especially the fact that Andrew Cuomo had a number two named Melissa DeRosa who was very active in women's rights and reproductive rights meant that our health insurer ended up having to cover not all, but a lot of the IVF that had to be done.

Again not choice, this isn't a person who's doing IVF because she is late in her years and trying to get pregnant. It's a person who's trying to preserve her reproductive system as a result of getting cancer. We went through that, it was still a ton of work but the benefit of having pro-choice infrastructure was very clear. The reason I'm calling in, even though again I'm not necessarily the demographic expected for your first call, but the reason I'm calling in is just to say that there are a lot of arcane state laws that are absolutely the domain of the health commissioner and the governor and whoever they put into place. They affect a lot of people in their reproductive health, their reproductive rights, and their general healthcare, which is I think why so many New Yorkers are pro-choice.

Brian Lehrer: Well, what a fabulous call. Specifically to the point, no matter what age you are, and I'm glad your daughter is okay, so Michael, thank you very much for being our first caller in 30 issues and 30 days this year. Karen, that was very interesting. A really interesting example of how the executive branch, even without the legislature, which we imagine would not overturn any abortion rights in New York State right now, has powers. I guess in this case it had to do with how private insurers need to cover certain reproductive kinds of healthcare.

Karen DeWitt: Michael made the point way much better than I could because there are so many of those nuances. It's true that you have issues of contraception and access and if health insurance pay in addition to the in vitro fertilization. The thing about abortion is it, to some people it can seem like or other reproductive choices. It can seem like a Black-and-white issue until it happens to you or a member of your family. Then you see everybody has a story. It's very nuanced about decisions they make and how that plays out and what access that they have.

Brian Lehrer: Let's turn to the new additional protections the state has enacted since the Supreme Court's Dobbs decision in June reversing Roe versus Wade. Here again is Governor Hochul on CNN, shortly after that decision.

Governor Kathy Hochul: Here in New York, we took action already. We've given 35 million to our existing providers so they can beef up and prepare for the influx of women coming from other states. We also, I signed a package of laws just last week, made sure they have immunity for our abortion providers in this state so they're not subjected to lawsuits from states where they have personal rights of action to go after people who secure an abortion or the provider. We've done what we can here to become a safe harbor for women across this country. To us personally, this is devastating. This is a blow to all women, but my view is you stand up and you fight back.

Brian Lehrer: Karen, can you tell us in a little more detail what's new in the state since the Supreme Court ruling? What's that $35 million the governor referred to for?

Karen DeWitt: I have to say, Brian, as the governor was talking and I was reviewing this, I was thinking, that is a good question. I haven't seen any follow-up to the enactment of these laws and talk about the health department and regulations. A lot of this is for the health department to carry out. I am curious about how many women have come from other states seeking reproductive care here and how that money is being used at abortion provider clinics. That was announced. Hochul got a lot of credit for it. I'm not really sure how that's playing out though in real-time. Certainly providers I don't think have to be afraid in New York to provide services to women from other states because it gets into the nitty gritty of you can't be sued for medical malpractice.

There can't be extradition, authorities from another state can't make you go to that state and face charges that you performed an abortion on someone in your state when it's illegal in their state. All those kinds of things, it seems like they looked at all of those criminal provisions and we're able to try to provide the protections per providers. As to how many providers are performing reproductive right services for people from other states, I don't know the answer to that. I'd really like to know the answer to that.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, maybe there's somebody out there right now who can help us report that part of the story. Is anybody working in the healthcare field involved with providing abortion services who has seen an influx of patients or even one patient whose story you could tell from a state with a trigger law that took effect after Roe is reversed or any new out-of-state people seeking reproductive healthcare since the Supreme Court's decision? If you work in the field or maybe you as an individual are one of those people or maybe you helped one of those people come to New York in any way to access abortion services that they could not now suddenly get in whatever their home state is. Anybody with a story like that to tell? If anything from the New York State funding, if you can even go to that level of detail, seems to have helped them pay for it.

212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or a tweet at Brian Lehrer. Karen, on one part of that law that you referred to, I guess it's possible that we're going to see some federal court battle between a state like Texas, let's say, that wants to criminally charge a New York State doctor for performing an abortion on a Texas resident who comes here because Texas would say it's illegal for that person to have an abortion. Therefore it's illegal for the New York doctor to have provided the abortion and they're going to try to charge the New York doctor. New York now has this law protecting those New York medical providers, but I don't know. This may wind up in federal court to decide which state has jurisdiction.

Karen DeWitt: That's right. It's a good point. State law, not federal law. Well, maybe, they'll side with state rights, but who knows? Yes, so far we don't know the case, excuse me, like that. Is perfectly possible that that could happen. Probably in some of these states where you have the governors of Texas and Florida who think they might be able to further their political career by doing that, they're probably are looking for an example.

Brian Lehrer: Here again is Zeldin from last week trying to soften his previous positions, opposing abortion rights, commenting on the taxpayers of New York, helping to fund abortions for pregnant patients coming from states that have bans. Listen.

Lee Zeldin: In some other darker red state, there might be a very different perspective on whether or not taxpayers should have to pay for people to come into the state for an abortion from another state versus what the will of the people may be in the blue state like New York.

Brian Lehrer: What is he saying there, Karen, about his own position and political reality and how much of a tweak, let's say, is that from what he might have said six months ago before the Dobbs decision?

Karen DeWitt: Yes, it seems like he's saying he isn't going to mess with those laws that we just discussed, so Hochul and the legislature passed and that he would do what people want instead of something that, maybe the more right-wing people might want to do. Yet again, he isn't promising that. I guess that's what voters have to decide. Do you believe him, what he's saying on this, if this is an important issue to you and do you think, "Well, it'll probably basically be okay, he's saying that he's not going to alter New York's abortion laws or mess too much with what the health department's doing, carrying them out," or are you going to believe Governor Hochul who says he's just so extreme there, he just should not be in office at all.

Brian Lehrer: We have a tweet from a listener who says, I am raising money for the New York Abortion Access Fund and they are serving many more women than ever before since Roe fell. They serve women from other states in addition to women in New York. That's a general statement of what one fundraiser for an abortion rights access group is doing. Here is Kate in Scarborough calling on that same topic. Kate, you're on WNYC. Hi there.

Kate: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I went to a presentation by Planned Parenthood Hudson Peconic, which has got 10 clinics in Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, and Suffolk County. They've seen an increase of about 20% of their clients now have increased and are more from out of state. They have used some state money to hire another assistant medical director. They have beefed up security because the crazy protestors in other states now know to come to New York.

The most important thing to know is they have also seen people in New York who don't have accurate information. Young women who come in with medical complications because they thought abortion was illegal, so they tried to give themself one. There are many issues that are involved in this course going from misinformation to the need for better healthcare. I loved your first caller talking about if you've got reproductive parts and your loved ones have reproductive parts, then these abortion laws affect you.

Brian Lehrer: Kate, thank you so much. A chilling example there from Kate in Scarborough that's Hudson Rivertown talking about how some even New York women come in and girls thinking abortion has become illegal here and not knowing what to do.

Karen DeWitt: That's really disturbing. It goes into the other topics that you're going to address later in this segment on democracy and misinformation. That's really-- I'm really sorry to hear that, that people would think that despite all of our best efforts to report what's actually going on in New York State.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a clip you included in your recent radio story of an anti-Zeldin ad that Hochul is running. The ad calls Zeldin extreme on abortion and then says,

Advertisement: Has supported abortion bans so cruel toward women. They include no exceptions for rape, incest, or the life of the mother because Lee Zeldin is extreme and dangerous.

Brian Lehrer: Can you fact-check that claim that he supported legislation without those exceptions?

Karen DeWitt: Well, yes, in July, because he is still an active congressman. The House had the Women's Health Protection Act prohibits government interference in a woman's right to choose abortion after 24 weeks. He voted no on that. Also the access to Abortion Act, which prohibits anyone from acting against a woman in a state where abortion is banned to seek access in another state where it's legal.

I guess what they're talking about is just not the right after 24 weeks. He did vote against those bills. I think he had to as a Republican of the current political climate and congress, but it's certainly being used against him.

Brian Lehrer: I read that Zeldin voted for a House Bill as a member of Congress that would have enacted an abortion ban nationally after 20 weeks. Does he stand by that position arguing that anything more than 20 weeks is extreme?

Karen DeWitt: Like I said, he hasn't really answered a lot of questions on it and mostly it's more focused on not tampering with New York's laws, but no, he hasn't really been pinned down on that. We really haven't had any debates yet in this race. We may not have them, we haven't had a lot of extended interviews with the candidates, so it makes it a little difficult to really determine their exact positions on these things, unfortunately.

Brian Lehrer: Do you want to give us, by the way, a quick Hochul Zeldin debate update? From what I've been reading, Hochul has accepted one televised debate. Zeldin has accepted two different channels televised debates. They haven't accepted the same debates, so far no debates.

Karen DeWitt: Well, Zeldin is trying to use what leverage he can to get Governor Hochul to agree to more debates, and Hochul, at least from the statement, seems to be only agreeing to just one debate on Spectrum News, which is fine they have a great track record, but Zeldin is making the point that that's on cable and not everybody has cable anymore, and doing one debate that is accessible to at least over the air or more widely broadcast would make sense.

I don't know. It seems to me that Zeldin eventually if Hochul doesn't agree to more debates and it doesn't seem like she's going to is going to have to agree to it. Frankly, I think he needs a debate and needs the attention more than she does. She's learned a lot from being a politician for a long time. I don't want to put this way, but I do feel like in some ways she has learned from her predecessor, the controversial former Governor Andrew Cuomo, who was very limited in the debates that he did as well in general elections because he didn't feel like they were going to serve him well and he didn't want to give attention to opponents who were trailing him in the polls as Zeldin is trailing Hochul in the polls.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take one more call. This is on the topic of government funding for abortions and national law that's in effect that might confuse some people when they hear New York is funding abortion access. Don in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi Don.

Don: Just a question. The [unintelligible 00:34:50] prevent the federal government from giving states money to fund abortions. How does the [unintelligible 00:34:58] affect New York State being able to give money for Medicaid patients from out of state to fund abortions?

Brian Lehrer: That is a great question, Don. I think a lot of people are confused by that because they hear Medicaid funding for abortion is banned by Congress, just as Don says, and yet Karen, in New York State, a person on Medicaid can get a government-funded abortion.

Karen DeWitt: Well, he's really challenging me here. Every year during the budget, the pro-life, a faction of legislature, will debate this issue for a couple of hours during the budget to the point where it's happened so many times, we sort of tune it out. New York does make an exception for that. I guess they're allowed to, I would have to look up the details, but they are allowed to that.

Brian Lehrer: My understanding is they're allowed to by using state funds only. Medicaid does give states a lot of leeway to do different things at the state level. Some states cover a lot more than other states cover under Medicaid. I think that's the answer to that question, and that's going to be--

Karen DeWitt: I guess, and again, I would just say it goes back to the Health Department regulations too.? How they carry that out.

Brian Lehrer: That's 30 issues in 30 days issue number one, abortion rights and the New York State Governor's race, we thank New York State Public Radio Capital Bureau Chief Karen Dewitt. Great job as always, Karen. Thank you so much.

Karen DeWitt: You're very welcome.

 

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