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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. We have a little bit of breaking news. Yet again, it involves the NYPD and its response to the George Floyd protests of last summer, and yet again, the complaint is specifically about what they did in Mott Haven. Just minutes ago, 24 aggrieved New Yorkers dropped a demand letter on the desk of Mayor Bill de Blasio, with a copy to City Comptroller Scott Stringer.

They are demanding immediate action after they say they were assaulted, kettled, pepper-sprayed, zip-tied, and in many cases, arrested, all while attempting to exercise their right to First Amendment expression and assembly in a part of the city that they say has been subjected to generations of violence and discrimination at the hands of the police. Reporter Jake Offenhartz was there for WNYC and Gothamist, and spoke with Kai Wright shortly after 9:30 that night, during our special coverage of the protests.

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Speaker 1: Basically, as the clock struck 8:00 PM, another group of cops came from behind with batons out and started pushing people, and it was a really scary and claustrophobic scene in there, and I don't know that it's been freed up yet. I think they might still be there. They're not letting us anywhere near it.

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Brian Lehrer: The next morning, the police commissioner defended the department on WCBS Radio, saying outside agitators had promoted the use of violence and property damage.

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Speaker 2: They put out posters advertising that they were going to burn things down, that they were going to injure cops, that they were going to cause mayhem. That was the plan. We disrupted the plan.

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Brian Lehrer: Since then, Human Rights Watch and even the NYPD's own Department of Investigation, the city's Department of Investigation have identified the NYPD attacks on protesters that night in Mott Haven, as a particularly egregious example of the NYPD's bad response to the Black Lives Matter movement and protests of last summer.

We're going to try something new when it comes to police reporting here at WNYC, a reporting project that seeks to talk about reform of the system in a whole new way. We want to talk about how people are policed and why. Joining me now, Selena Martin, she is one of the 24 people who have signed the demand letter that landed on Mayor de Blasio's desk less than an hour ago. They are asking for, among other things, a reparation fund for the harm done in Mott Haven on June 4th. Selena, thank you so much for giving us some time today. Welcome to WNYC.

Selena Martin: Thank you so much, Brian, for having me on the show today.

Brian Lehrer: Selena, we're going to invite callers to join this conversation. Listeners, anyone who was in Mott Haven that night, we invite you to call in. Some of you called us the next day and have called us since. If you happened to be out there before, if you were in that particular demonstration, 646-435-7280, as various levels of government and citizen activists are revisiting this incident now because there has not been closure, what did you see? What was your experience?

This segment is not just about the demand letter, but it's in the context of this new reporting project that we're launching today at the station, and we're inviting your help. Call us up, 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280, and tell us what you saw or experienced if you were in the Bronx during the protests on June 4th, focusing primarily on Mott Haven for now and the immediate surrounding area in that particular protest that night. Also, joining us is Jami Floyd, WNYC Senior Editor for Race & Justice, who's producing this project that we are calling 24 Minutes in Mott Haven. Hi, Jami.

Jami Floyd: Good morning, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Jami will tell us more about the reporting project in a minute, but first to you, Selena Martin, tell us about your experience in Mott Haven on June 4th. When did you get there that night, and what did you see at first?

Selena Martin: When I first got there, I got there about 6:15 in the evening, and the cops had already been there. They were assembled where we were gathered. Just throughout the night, we were marching and going to the streets, and about 7:45, we had been trapped at the Mott Haven housing projects. That's where the series of events occurred, with us being kettled and pepper-sprayed and beat with batons.

Brian Lehrer: Was it a peaceful protest to that point, in your experience? You heard the clip of the police commissioner from the next morning, where they were concerned because there were posters, he says, that were advertising that people were going to burn things down and that they were out to injure cops and cause mayhem, the term he used.

Selena Martin: That night, we were gathered together. We were marching through significant areas surrounding Mott Haven. There was music and drums beating. It was very powerful to be in. There was no mayhem to me or chaos occurring. It seemed very, very peaceful.

Brian Lehrer: The police closed in because it had passed eight o'clock. There was an eight o'clock curfew in effect that night, and they just had determined that anybody who was out after curfew was going to get arrested if they wouldn't disperse?

Selena Martin: From the moment that we began marching, the police had continued to follow us. Even before the 8:00 PM curfew had hit, they had already kettled us in and didn't allow us to leave from that group.

Brian Lehrer: Before we bring in Jami, I understand you were pepper-sprayed and then arrested. Would you tell our listeners what that experience was like to you? You can give us a little bit of the moment by moment of that. I don't think people get to hear that very much from people who are on that end of it.

Selena Martin: Yes. That night, I witnessed and experienced the excessive force and violence from the police. I felt fear. I felt the fear within myself and that of others that had been put into people. At one point, I couldn't breathe, I felt claustrophobic because of the kettling. The police in the back and in the front were pushing in on us and really squishing us to the point that I couldn't breathe. Multiple people were shouting and screaming that they couldn't breathe as well.

I almost felt like we were in a box of sardines because of how squished we were and toppling over each other because we were on a hill. We were almost [unintelligible 00:07:55] toppling over each other. At one point, I was pinned to a car and I couldn't move. There was a few police officers that jumped on the car and started beating the protesters with batons. I felt fear in that moment that I was going to be hit in the face with this baton. It was very scary. I thought that I was going to die at one point or extremely harmed. I was scared and I was worried.

I had been pepper-sprayed, as you mentioned. I did get pepper-sprayed as I made my way to the sidewalk. There was so much adrenaline going on, so much screaming and people being hit and dragged on the floor, people being pepper-sprayed and hit with batons. I just remember bones cracking from the force of the batons on people's bodies and screaming. I was just in the rush of things and the adrenaline and just trying to get to a point where I felt safe that I didn't even realize that I had been pepper-sprayed in that moment, and-

Brian Lehrer: I think- go ahead. I know you want to finish the thought. Go ahead.

Selena Martin: I was just going to say that the police officers kept going back and forth about allowing us to leave because within that sidewalk, we also had been kettled, and we were attempting to get help for an older man who had been pepper-sprayed on the eyes and he couldn't open his eyes at all. The police didn't make any effort to assist or support him. I had been pushed to a tree and I couldn't move. That's what led up to my arrest when we were pleading to be released. At one point, a female officer had asked if we wanted to leave and we said we did. Another officer had came and said that if she was allowing us to leave and then she agreed and the moment that we stepped out, that's when he grabbed me by my arm and twisted it and had zip-tied me in and had arrested me.

Brian Lehrer: Zip-tied. I think a lot of Americans only became familiar with the term zip ties in the last few weeks, since the January 6th insurrection. That was one of the things that indicated that they were really out for violence and potentially to kidnap members of Congress because they were carrying zip ties. People haven't heard that term, they know handcuffs, they don't necessarily know zip ties. What was that experience like being in zip ties?

Selena Martin: The zip ties were extremely painful and tight. They had put them really tight where I could barely even move my hands. My arms were twisted in a position that was very uncomfortable and my hands felt swollen. They were turning almost purple and numbed. I had the numb for several hours, for more than five hours. I couldn't even feel my hands and it was raining that night as well. It was very cold and my hands were numb. It was just an awful experience to the point-

Brian Lehrer: Also, with us- I'm sorry, "To the point", go ahead.

Selena Martin: To the point where several days after I had the zip ties removed that my wrists were sore, swollen, and tender from the tightness of the zip ties.

Brian Lehrer: Also, with us now and being very patient WNYC, Jami Floyd, Senior Editor for Race & Justice here at WNYC, and producer of this new reporting project called 24 Minutes in Mont Haven. Jami, I think this is not the first time you've heard Selena's story. People don't usually hear these stories laid out in such detail and relatively long-form like this. What are you thinking? What are you feeling? And introduce people to this recording project, if you would.

Jami Floyd: Yes. Not at all patiently, Brian. I was riveted and on the edge of my seat, even though yes, I've heard Selena story and there are 23 others like it in this demand letter that went to Mayor de Blasio this morning and City Comptroller Scott Stringer. We'll talk a bit more about what the demand letter is asking, but I think, Brian, it's important to emphasize that Selena is not a professional community organizer. She's not an activist, she's a social worker at a school in East Harlem.

She was in Mott Haven to exercise her First Amendment right to protest peaceably and to freely assemble. You and I, Brian, have talked about the constitution so many times on your show. You do know I am a constitutional advocate and I advocate for those who want to exercise that right, those rights, and the police their job when we assemble, is to protect and serve us to help us help them. Their job is not to do what these 24 people say happened to them that night.

They are not supposed to [unintelligible 00:13:33] to a pepper spray or exert excessive force. We do expect that if there's a violent crime occurring, but not during a peaceful protest. Yes, I did hear Dermot Shea say that they were reacting to threats from the crowd, but the evidence in the DOI report that you mentioned, Brian, and other investigations and reviews that have happened in the ensuing months, is that the police came to Mott Haven, a predominantly Black and brown community that night with a plan and this was their plan.

Brian, that's what has to change. That's what we're doing with this project. The 24 Minutes in Mott Haven, it's a collaboration here at WNYC, a new kind of reporting project. That's because the events in Mott Haven, Brian, were an extreme example of the ways in which our community and our policing relationship is broken. I would dare to say it's not even existent in some communities. The Race & Justice Unit, when we heard about this demand letter, it's not a lawsuit. Let's clarify that. We've done that before, right, Brian?

It's not a special monitor. We have one of those after stop-and-frisk and now Tish James is calling for another. Instead, this is a letter asking the mayor, asking the controller, asking city officials to come to the table and talk reform, talk reparations. Join a conversation about really making the change we want to see, not just apologies. The mayor has apologized for Mott Haven, but action. Brian, when we, the Race & Justice Unit, are heard about this demand letter, we thought it was an opportunity to launch this new reporting project today. Through the lens of what happened in Mott Haven on June 4th, we're hoping to launch a different conversation about policing and reform.

Jake Offenhartz just dropped the demand letter reporting on Gothamist this hour and he'll be part of our ongoing reporting project, which we'll roll out on Gothamist over the next several months. We'll also be working, Brian, with Kai Wright and The US of Anxiety team, the narrative unit, we're going to work throughout the station to talk about policing. I heard Andy Yang talk about changing the culture of policing. He's right. That's what this project is about. Much more to come, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Also with us for a couple of minutes now is Jenn Rolnick Borchetta. She's the Managing Director of Impact Litigation at Bronx Defenders and is coordinating with some of the defendants from Mott Haven. Jenn, thank you for giving us a few minutes on such a busy day.

Jenn Rolnick Borchetta: Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here to talk with all of you.

Brian Lehrer: I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the demand letter. I understand there were 260 people arrested in Mott Haven on June 4th, and thousands more in the streets who encountered police officers that night. How did you find or select these 24 people to join this collective? Then maybe also lay out a little bit about what the demand letter specifically demands or ask for?

Jenn Rolnick Borchetta: Well, we sort of found each other, the collective of 24 people were representing who were making this demand in The Bronx Defenders. Soon after the June 4th protest, not long into June 5th, we at The Bronx Defenders began to understand just how awful the NYPD's violence was towards protesters the night before. We saw videos of officers beating trapped people with the tons. We heard from our staff who had been there offering legal support who were themselves beaten by the NYPD, and we wanted to offer services and support as quickly as we could.

One of those services was from my team. My team is a civil rights practice within The Bronx Defenders. We put out a public notice advising people that we could help if they wanted to bring claims against the NYPD, and people began emailing and calling us seeking that help. We responded as quickly as we could. We were offering a specific type of help, and that's what we explained to people when we spoke to them. We were not offering to bring a lawsuit at least right away, and there were lawyers available to them who would be able to do that.

What we were doing was something different. We were offering to bring people together as a collective to demand that the city and the comptroller settle their claims before trial, before they had to file a lawsuit in order to reckon with and repair the harm without putting people through the delay and what is often trauma of litigation. These 24 people were eager, I would say, to be a part of this group and to come together to collectively demand what might be a more transformative change for the people in the community who were injured that night. We gave some priority to people who were in the Bronx, but otherwise it was first come first serve.

Then, when we hit 24, that was the number we thought that [unintelligible 00:18:54] that we are small, could responsibly handle. The demand what it looks for is reparations for recognizing that what happened is wrong. A major component of the demand is a reparations fund. It's compensating the people who were injured by this protest violence by the NYPD, and also giving back resources to the community because the community was harmed too. This mass violence against Black and Brown people predominantly in a predominantly Black and Brown neighborhood caused its own kind of injury to the Mott Haven community, and that needs to be addressed too. This fund would give back to people who were injured and give back to the community as well.

Brian Lehrer: Selena, I guess plaintiffs is the wrong word because it's not a lawsuit, but as one of the signatories to the letter, what do you hope the city would do that would repair the damage to you in some way as an individual or to the group?

Selena Martin: As was mentioned, we [unintelligible 00:20:03] in the operations for individuals in the community. We want to prevent police violence and the Hong Kong [inaudible 00:20:12] policing in general because what occurred and continues to occur every single day is unacceptable.

Brian Lehrer: Jami, for you as our legal editor, as well as Race & Justice Editor, why the demand letter, as opposed to a lawsuit, what leverage do they have with merely a letter, if that's the right way to characterize it, as opposed to going to court?

Jami Floyd: Well, as Jenn suggested and as you know, Brian, litigation is difficult, traumatic, expensive and, frankly, hasn't worked Brian. We've been to this movie before, as I've said to you on other stories. We've talked about the Human Rights Watch report, the DOI report, the lawsuit that Tish James has filed. Then this is just in the context of the George Floyd protests in demands for reform. We've talked about Eric Garner, we've talked about Black Lives Matter being founded before that with Trayvon Martin in 2013.

Brian, we could go back to the [unintelligible 00:21:28] Commission in the '90s, the Knapp Xommission in the '70s, and the conversation continues, the change doesn't happen. This letter is an opportunity and offer for Bill de Blasio, for Scott Stringer, who is running for mayor. Not mentioned because you just discussed it a moment ago when you asked Andy Yang about progressivism in the mayor's race. It's an opportunity for them to come to the table and really talk about reparations. Think about reform and offer a measure of reckoning to a neighborhood that has been overpoliced.

I know this Brian because I'm a native New Yorker. Mott Haven and the Bronx have long experienced the consequences of over-reliance on criminalization and policing to address really socioeconomic problems. That's what I believe Selena and the other 23 are asking the city to reckon with in this demand letter.

Brian Lehrer: We invited callers, first from anybody who happened to be at the protest that night in Mont Haven, in addition to Savannah. Nobody who happened to be in that relatively small group happens to be listening right now, but we have gotten people with some questions calling in. Let's take one or two at 646 435-7280 Bill in Yorkville, you're WNYC. Hi Bill.

Bill: Hi Brian. Thanks for taking my call and hello to your guests. I was not present at the Mott Haven protests. I did attend various Black Lives Matter protests over the course of last summer, and the particular reason for my call, I guess this is responding to the larger point about how the police interacts with the community. Is that. I'll start with something that I saw just today. I live in Yorkville, I'm only a few blocks away from Gracie Mansion, and there are police barricades that have been up periodically blocking blocks since last summer.

They're up again today and I was just on a walk in my neighborhood, and I asked them, "Hey, what's going on?" I have to admit I'm really frustrated when I see this and I'm pretty angry, but I tried to disrespectfully say, "Hey, what's happening?" I was told that today. I checked on Twitter, apparently, there is a Taxi Workers' association protest today regarding the mountain deck crisis for the cab drivers in the city. They told me, "Well, there's a protest, we have a division whose job it is to find out when and where protests are, so we just sort of pop up and we just can't have them drive you down this block".

It's something I've noticed over the past year, not just in my neighborhood, but throughout the city. I commute to Washington Heights for work every single day, often on my bike, I ride through Harlem, there are entire stretches of St. Nicholas Avenue that were co-opted by police precincts, barricades up. They turned it into a parking lot. Places outside the bridges and tunnels. It's been persistent over the past year. I think it sends just a terrible message.

The way I take it, I'm not a marginalized person and listen, I know Yorkville is not a marginalized community, but the way I take it is that you look down upon us and you look down upon our community, as citizens of the city, our ability to protest and to have you hear us when we don't like something that's happening.

Brian Lehrer: Bill, I'm going to leave it there and get one other caller in before we run out of time, and that's going to be Edwin in East Flatbush, you're on WNYC. Hi Edwin, thank you for calling.

Edwin: How you're doing? It's an honor to be able to lend my voice to this program. I am an active NYPD Lieutenant, but I'm speaking as a private citizen. What I want to speak to, which encompasses the issues with protesting that people have been having with the police department and just the laws of ecosystem is reform in general. Reform has not been working because the people responsible for implementing the paradigm shifts, the new list, whatever came from the litigation, and the legislation, and the activism are literally the same people who are responsible for the problem in the first place.

They don't behind closed doors. They sabotage whatever supposed to change it's sabotaged. We need to find the justice-minded offices who exist throughout the department for pigeonholed and Stonewall. We need to find them and get them into key decision-making positions if we're ever going to get reformed, because I've watched as friends who are active, I'm actually a whistleblower and current our city council candidate. I know a lot of activists, since I've become a whistleblower five years ago, I've watched some activists who I consider friends go from reform.

All of this close to saying, "You know what? We might just need to abolish", and the reason is because every single situation, an incident where a reform is called for, step-by-step things are put out as to what can be done, they find that it doesn't work. It's not causing a change in behavior at a pace that's quick enough for the people.

Brian Lehrer: Edwin, quickly, how do you change culture?

Edwin: Again, we have the justice-minded officers who are pigeonholed. I'm not a fan of Commissioner Bratton, but I'll quote him. He said, "You can seriously undermine any organization by putting the right people in the wrong positions", and NYPD is guilty of that through and through. People that belong in key positions, almost never get there. Myself, I'm a Lieutenant, I had to fight tooth and nail for each promotion because I spoke out as a police officer and they tried to destroy my entire career.

They are people that I know is high in the ranks of inspect. Even chiefs for them to not get into decision-making positions to really change this thing. They don't want to sabotage their career,s so they're not outspoken, but a lot of them come to me. This is part of the reason why I decided to run for city council, because I want to help spearhead this thing once I'm in City Hall, hopefully the Public Safety Chair. That's how you change culture, you have to find the people who believe and are sincere about the change and put them into key positions.

Brian Lehrer: Edwin, thank you very much. Interesting to hear from someone who describes himself. I don't know Edwin, but he's describing himself as a active-duty NYPD Lieutenant and whistleblower, as well as City Council candidate. To wrap this up one question for you general Jenn Rolnick Borchetta, and then Jamie, I'll just invite you to tell our listeners where they can hear more of this new reporting project that you're spearheading.

Jenn, to Edwin's point about how long this has been going on with particular reforms that don't seem to change the culture enough, you were one of the leading lawyers, our listeners may not know, on the Stop-and-frisk litigation, which is getting to be a decade ago in which a federal judge ultimately found that the NYPD's use of Stop-and-frisk was racially discriminatory and unconstitutional. A federal monitor is in place to this day regarding that, and yet here we are, almost 10 years later, still talking about policing and still talking about reform.

What are you thinking with all this experience and having listened to Edwin and what he thinks from inside it would take for real change. With all your experience in this area, what would it take? Forgive me, we're over time already, so if you can give me about 30 seconds on this.

Jenn Rolnick Borchetta: What we hope to get from this action, which we're doing differently here. We're not doing the lawsuit here. We're doing a demand like Jami said, to bring the city to the table to reckon and repair now. What we're hoping to get from this new approach is not just changes that look to the NYPD to fix the problem, because that's proven to be insufficient, but reparations that go to repairing and investing in the community that was harmed, because that just might make a real difference this time.

Brian Lehrer: Jami, reporting project 24 Minutes in Mott Haven, what can listeners expect?

Jami Floyd: Well, these are people, Brian, they're not just cases for a lawyer, they're not even just stories for us as journalists. These are people who have real lives, real families, real communities, and they have rights. When we do this work, we are going to proceed in this project with that first and foremost, how are people policed and why. As you said at the top, Brian, how are people policed and why. We begin today. 24 hours in Mott Haven will be on Gothamist as Jake Offenhartz broke this story about this letter that dropped on Mayor de Blasio desk today. Maybe you can ask him about it on Friday, Brian. You can read Jake's reporting on Gothamis, gothamist.com.

Then we'll continue reporting it out on Gothamist. We will also be working with Kai Wright at US of Anxiety to bring you stories like Selena's in a more narrative form. We're going to work in other places throughout our organization and hopefully cross-pollinate, Brian, a word we like to use at New York Public Radio, so that our listeners can participate as well.

Brian Lehrer: Let me at least get the title right. I said 24 Minutes in Mott Haven, is it really 24 hours in Mott Haven?

Jami Floyd: No, it's 24 Minutes because within the span of 24 minutes, pardon my French, all hell broke loose.

Brain Lehrer: Jami Floyd, WNYC Race and Justice Editor. Selena Martin, one of the signatories to this demand letter for reparations for what happened in those 24 minutes and beyond in Mott Haven on June 4th. Jenn Rolnick Borchetta, an attorney for the group. Thank you all for joining us today.

Jami: Thank you, Brian.

Selena: Thank you.

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