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Brian Lehrer: It's Brian Lehrer on WNYC. To end the show today, we will open the phones for Catholics on the legacy of Pope Francis, according to you, and for any Christians today on the question, what did you hear or what did you preach at Easter Sunday services about the state of our country or the state of the world? What would Jesus say? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. It's a call-in for Catholics on the legacy of Pope Francis, according to you, and for any Christians today on the question, what did you hear or what did you preach at Easter Sunday services about the state of our country or the state of the world, if you brought it up. What would Jesus say? 212-433-WNYC.

Let's acknowledge many American Christians differ with each other over various things that are going on right now, whether you belong to a more liberal or progressive church or more conservative one, were any Trump administration policies addressed from the pulpit yesterday from any point of view, implicitly or explicitly, and how did that make you feel? 212-433-9692.

Now, ironically, perhaps, Vice President J.D. Vance, as you may have heard, met with Pope Francis briefly at the Vatican yesterday, one of the last people to see him alive despite their explicit differences. This, by itself, shows the diversity of feeling within Christianity. Here's Vance at the National Prayer Breakfast referring to those differences on February 28th.

Vice President J.D. Vance: Pope Francis has criticized some of our policies when it comes to immigration. Again, my goal here is not to litigate with him or any other clergy member about who's right and who's wrong. You obviously know my views, and I will speak to them consistently because I think that I have to do it, because it serves the best interest of the American people.

Brian Lehrer: Vance also said.

Vice President J.D. Vance: I was certainly surprised when he criticized our immigration policy in the way that he has.

Brian Lehrer: Christian listeners, did you hear anything like that or anything about that at Easter services yesterday before Pope Francis died? 212-433-WNYC. Or maybe something more Francis-like or more Joe Biden-like? Remember that as a big contrast to Trump and Vance, in 2021, when Joe Biden was coming into office as a regular Catholic Mass goer, The New York Times wrote this, "With Mr. Biden, a different, more liberal Christianity is ascendant, less focused on sexual politics and more on combating poverty, climate change and racial inequality."

We could say the same about Pope Francis compared to his predecessor, as the rare Latin American pope and one who talked explicitly about migrants as part of their mission. That's obviously changed again this year at the White House at the presidential level. A big question now, will it change back again at the Vatican as well. Also, The Washington Post and other outlets have had articles recently about a bit of a surge in young adults joining or rejoining the Catholic Church, even as the larger trend in the US is toward less religious identity at all, especially among younger Americans.

I wonder if any new or renewed Catholics are listening right now. J.D. Vance only converted to Catholicism in 2019. 212-433-9692. As your calls are coming in, we're going to talk to Father James Martin, a Jesuit priest, founder of outreach and LGBTQ Catholic resource, editor at large for America Media, consultor to the Vatican's dicastery for communication, and author of the book Come Forth and the book Learning to Pray. Father Martin, it's always great to have you on the show. Welcome back to WNYC.

Father James Martin: Thank you. Good to be back.

Brian Lehrer: You're a Jesuit, as was Pope Francis. I want to start by just asking you to explain to our listeners who are unfamiliar a little bit about the ethos of the Jesuits and why it was such a big deal that a Jesuit had become pope. I'm sure you're in personal grief today, so you can say anything you want about your late pope.

Father James Martin: Sure. First of all, the Jesuits are a Catholic religious order of men. We have brothers and priests. We take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. We're probably best known in the States for our schools. Here in New York, Fordham and Xavier High School and Regis, et cetera. It was a big deal for the pope to be a Jesuit because there hasn't been anyone from a Catholic religious order for centuries. He brought a Jesuit way of looking at things, trying to live simply, being close to the poor, being clear about reverence for the individual person's conscience. I think that shook some people up.

As for my own feelings, yes, I'm very sad. I knew him, I got to know him. Not as well as others, of course, but he was very supportive of my LGBTQ ministry. I met with him a few times, one one-on-one, and just a wonderful, warm, charming. I want to say to listeners, funny guy. He was really relaxed and down to earth. I'll really miss him a lot as a person and certainly even more as a pope.

Brian Lehrer: He was also the first pope from the Americas and from the Global South. He was from Argentina. Can you talk a bit about why that was so significant?

Father James Martin: Sure. The first pope from outside of Europe. We have to remember that John Paul was the first non-Italian Pope for about 400 years. As he said when he was elected, playing on the gospels, he said you had to go to the ends of the earth to find somebody. I think he brought a more international perspective than, say, some of the European popes had. Certainly, one thing that endeared him to a lot of people, particularly in New York, was his Spanish, of course, was perfect and fluent, and native. I think that helped him reach out to a lot of people who might have felt a little more on the margins.

Brian Lehrer: On your LGBTQ ministries issues, I believe he said transgender people can be godparents at very least, and their kids can be baptized. He endorsed same sex civil unions and said priests can bless same sex couples. He recognized that adults, not just children, could be victims of abuse, but he didn't push the envelope as much as many would have liked, we should say, on some of those issues, because some of those things that I just described they were seen as halfway measures. Also, on not allowing women bigger roles in the church and moving toward the priesthood. How do you think a true progressive Catholic or otherwise, should really view the legacy of Pope Francis?

Father James Martin: I'm really glad you asked that, especially for the listenership that you have. One of the things to remember is all those things you said may seem very tepid in New York, but in Nairobi, they're not tepid. They might seem really lukewarm and half measures, but when you talk to people in Eastern Europe and sub-Saharan Africa, those measures were really very threatening, particularly around LGBTQ issues and women. We have to remember that he's trying to govern a global church. Again, what seems like half steps over here might seem like a marathon over there. He was balancing the need to be progressive and open, and inclusive with the need for church unity. Those are the two things that he tried to keep in tension.

Brian Lehrer: Listener writes, "So saddened with the passing of Pope Francis. His message and legacy is humane and a strong contrast to Trump's Easter message on social media." Another listener writes, "Let's not forget Jesus was Jewish and lived in Palestine." That listener says, "Muslims are mourning the loss of the pope, a passionate defender of the Palestinian people, as well as migrants and refugees."

Father Martin, he was a staunch defender of democracy. Back in November, he urged Americans to vote, and he said they should pick the lesser evil between Harris and Trump. For Harris, he was critical of her stance on abortion, still a sin in the Catholic Church, and for Trump, he was extremely concerned with his treatment of migrants. Can you talk a little bit more about the pope and democracy or American democracy?

Father James Martin: Sure. He was certainly someone who promoted democracy coming from Latin America, which had its spate of dictatorships and still does. He knew that experience from his own bitter past. I often say that he was preaching the gospel, particularly when it came to migrants and refugees. Jesus asks us to welcome the stranger. If that became political, I think he felt so be it. The popes are really never trying to be political, Democrat, Republican. They're just trying to preach the gospel as best they can do. If, again, that has any political ramifications, I think they feel, "Well, that's just part of my job."

Brian Lehrer: I know you've got to go in a minute, then we're going to take callers for the rest of the segment. Going forward, the Vatican, of course, will have to choose a new pope, and it almost feels like there are two paths. Will the next pope be like Francis, if not as liberal as some people want a pope to be, at least open-minded and willing to hear people out, or will the church retreat back into a more conservative path, more like his predecessor's path, Pope Benedict? As far as you know, are there any clues so far as to where things are headed, and do global politics affect this, as we've seen authoritarianism on the rise in so many places?

Father James Martin: Very few clues, I think. I always say to people these days that if you've seen the movie Conclave, you have a general sense of what happens. A lot less dramatic, of course. One of the things I've been thinking recently is that with the rise of autocracies and fascism in different places, you may see the cardinals thinking, "We need someone who's just as strong about democracy as Pope Francis," but they could go a totally different way. It's very hard to say. I think you'll probably see someone who's a little less revolutionary, though. My sense is that they might want someone who's a little bit more of a calm caretaker, but again, only the Holy Spirit knows for sure.

Brian Lehrer: When you look back to a few popes ago, Pope John Paul II was, I think, considered culturally conservative, but he was a strong advocate for democracy in the context of the Cold War era and the Soviet Union. He was from Poland and was really pro democracy when Russia was an authoritarian state then. I wonder if that's the kind of-- I don't know if that issue is more in play now with the Catholic Church, even as the cultural issues remain in play.

Father James Martin: I think that's a very good question. The cardinals are obviously all bright men. They're not unaware of what's going on politically, but really what they're looking for is someone who's holy, someone who can proclaim the gospel in season and out. Again, as you were saying, John Paul was a surprise, Benedict less of a surprise, and Cardinal Pope Francis was certainly a surprise. We'll see. The old expression is if you enter a papal candidate, you leave a cardinal. I think prognosticating is very difficult right now.

Brian Lehrer: Let me take one phone call for you. Monique in Tarrytown, you're on WNYC with Father James Martin. Hello.

Monique: Hi. Good morning. Father Martin, I just hope not to confuse folks as far as some of the issues about the pope. He was so pastoral and really looked at the individual and their conscience, but he really did not change fundamental Catholic teaching about homosexuality or abortion, or a lot of the social justice traditions. There's a difference between, let's say, blessing a marriage, and he clarified later on that. Any sexual act outside of marriage is considered a sin. He didn't want to criminalize behavior, but he--I guess there's a nuance between the individual and their actions versus the constancy of Catholic catechism and teaching. I just wanted to clarify that, and if you'd like to address that.

Brian Lehrer: Father Martin.

Father James Martin: I would say that he certainly did not change any doctrine, but there were certain teachings that he did change. For example, he came out against the criminalization of homosexuality, which was a big step forward. Frankly, the allowing of priests to bless same sex couples under certain circumstances was a change. Before that document came out, a priest couldn't do it. After the document came out, they could do it.

I think more fundamentally, he changed the approach. He met with transgender people, he met with representatives from the LGBTQ community, he talked about gay people. The approach really is a kind of teaching. He taught, I think, with those meetings and those words and those gestures, which again, is one of the ways that Jesus taught, not just with words, but with gestures and actions.

Brian Lehrer: You want to remind people because a listener is asking this question in a text, "Why did he select the name Francis?"

Father James Martin: Oh, sure. That's actually pretty clear. Right after he was elected, Cardinal Hummes from South America leaned over to him and said, "Don't forget the poor." It was in honor of Francis of Assisi, the great apostle of the poor. Then I think the second or third day after he was elected, he said a great quote, "How I want a church that is poor and for the poor." He really made good on that promise, I think.

Brian Lehrer: Last question. Does any of this matter with respect? The Pope is one individual. Obviously, he's got the position that he's got, but does it matter? All these cultural issues, political adjacent issues that we've been talking about, does the position of a Pope Benedict versus a Pope Francis change anybody politically or their practice in the world toward others who may be groups on the outs?

Father James Martin: Short answer, yes, he matters for 1 billion Catholics. In my own life, he mattered a great deal. He mattered for LGBTQ Catholics. He's the first Pope to put out an encyclical about the environment. He changed Catholic thought about that. As a more lighthearted answer, we're talking about him on the Brian Lehrer Show, so he clearly mattered to some people.

Brian Lehrer: I think we've probably talked about every Pope that has been in office, if that's what you call it, during the history of the show. We leave it there with Father James Martin, Jesuit priest, founder of outreach and LGBTQ Catholic resource, editor at large for America Media, consultor to the Vatican's dicastery for communication, at least under Pope Francis, and author of the books Come Forth, which came out in 2023, and Learning to Pray, which came out in '21. Father Martin, we really, really appreciate you taking the time today, and I'm sorry for your loss. Thank you for joining us.

Father James Martin: Thank you so much, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners now to your calls for Catholics on the legacy of Pope Francis, according to you and for any Christians today on the question, what did you hear or what did you preach if you're a priest or a minister or pastor at Easter Sunday services about the state of our country or the state of the world? What would Jesus say, according to you? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Louisa in Cherry Hill, you're on WNYC. Hello, Louisa.

Louisa: Hi, Brian. Thanks for taking my call.

Brian Lehrer: What are you thinking?

Louisa: Oh, gosh, I'm thinking a lot today. It's a really sad day, and I apologize in advance, but I'm already crying. He meant a lot to our family in particular. My husband and I, we got married 10 years ago last month, and we actually made it to the Vatican to be blessed in person by the pope, which is something that all Catholics can do. They have a few months to do that if they get married in the church. That's how our marriage started, and then two weeks ago, we welcomed a fourth child, and we named it Francis.

I have felt for years that if we were going to have a baby Francis, that it would somehow be when Pope Francis departed, and I never imagined that the pope's final Easter could be on our baby Francis's first. There's just-- Personal connections aside, what I'll remember most about him, I think his focus on the climate, definitely is top of mind. I would encourage anyone, Catholic or non, to read his Laudato si and the follow-up, which came just a couple of years after that.

He was such a profound thinker and writer, and you can just learn so much about Jesus' message in reading his works. Then, secondary to that, he always found a way to work in the dignity of each individual. Yesterday was no exception in his final address, and I just wanted to read a little bit from that. He said, "May the principle of humanity never fail to be the hallmark of our daily actions. In the face of the cruelty of conflicts that involve defenseless civilians and attack schools, hospitals, and humanitarian workers, we cannot allow ourselves to forget that it is not targets that are struck, but persons each possessed of a soul and human dignity."

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Louisa: That's all I wanted to say, and thanks for taking my call.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for coming so prepared for one thing, as if you were a producer of this show or a host of the show, coming with the excerpt ready to read from some of Pope Francis's last words. Hearing your tears, thank you for your good heart, and congratulations on the birth of your new Francis. Thank you for calling in.

Louisa: Thank you. Thanks very much.

Brian Lehrer: Kathy in Long Branch, you're on WNYC. Hi, Kathy.

Kathy: Hi. I'm just floored. I heard it early this morning, and I couldn't believe it because to me, he was so sick for months, but waited for Easter. He waited for Easter to enter heaven. To my mind, he was the best Pope since John XXIII for his humanity, for his love of everyone, especially, as it says in our gospel, the least of these. He was a true follower of Christ. His attitude towards the migrants, towards the poor, towards war, the ecology, everything, he just blew my mind. I will miss him terribly, and I pray that we don't go backwards.

Brian Lehrer: Kathy, thank you very much. Eugenia in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Eugenia.

Eugenia: Hello, Brian. Hello, are you there?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I'm here. What would you like to say? Thanks for calling.

Eugenia: I'd like to say that I love your show. As a person born in Argentina, I'm really proud of the pope, and he was a really good person. I remember that back many years ago, that there was a bishop, by the name of Podestá, D-E-S-T-Á, who fell in love with his secretary, who was a single mother of six kids. He was the only person who supported the bishop when he left the church to marry his secretary. I wish that he had done more to try to end perceived celibacy, because that has to end at some point. There's a hypocrisy in celibacy. I'm really proud of him.

Brian Lehrer: Eugenia, thank you very much for your call. A couple of texts. A listener writes, "Pope Francis brought me back to the church. Like Father Martin, he's a man of the people and for the people, especially the most vulnerable." Another one writes, "Pope Francis made about 34 priests in Chile resign after he met with a young Chilean man who was also homosexual, who had been abused. He remained in touch with that man for the rest of his life. May he rest in peace. An extraordinary human being and an extraordinary pope. I hope he will be sanctified," writes that listener. Nancy in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Nancy.

Nancy: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. Very sad today to hear this news. You know what? I'm a member of a Jesuit parish in Manhattan. All of our parish just loves Pope Francis. There are a number of reasons for that. Number one, I think he had a very loving heart himself, and that he was open to listen to people. He created the synod process as a way of listening to people in the pews. That even went to the Amazon, where they met with communities all over the Amazon, rural communities, and listened to what their concerns were.

I think that he was a real voice for justice, especially regarding the immigration issue. Also, because I work on the environment, I really, really appreciated his encyclical Laudato si. It mattered. Many people who are not Catholic have told me that they read the encyclical and that they appreciated it, perhaps even more. People who are non Catholic read it than people who are Catholic. It was very courageous of him to write that encyclical, I think, as we were facing the threat of global warming.

I think also that he spoke to everyone. It wasn't just that he was speaking to Catholics. He was really speaking to humanity, and I really appreciated that about him. I think he was a real pastor to all of us, a real true Christian in the best sense of the word. I think another caller referenced that he waited till Easter to die, and we have felt that too. That he celebrated Easter, he went to the prison on Holy Thursday, and that his last pronouncements were about immigration and the cruelty of war, especially the war in Gaza, and that he prayed both for Israel and for Gaza. I think he appealed to all of us to be better people.

Brian Lehrer: Nancy, thank you very much.

Nancy: I think--

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much for your call. On the other question we were asking, what did you preach or what did you hear at any kind of Easter service, Catholic or not, yesterday?

Listener writes, "I attended a service in the park across the street from my apartment. The church is under construction, but the congregation gathered for a lively outdoor service. The pastor spoke about going against the grain and not conforming to unacceptable norms. He used the analogy of a salmon swimming upstream. Councilman Yusef Salaam was also present, and he joined the pastor in discussing the importance of having courage to do what you know is right, even if it might be unpopular." The listener writes, "In addition to these messages, the music and the company of my neighbors was very uplifting." Olivia in Farmingdale, you're on WNYC. Hi, Olivia.

Olivia: Hi, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. I did want to respond to your question on what would Jesus say. I think for anybody who has read the Bible, studied the Bible, can agree in the New Testament. I'm paraphrasing different parts of the New Testament here. Jesus would say, "Care for the poor and the widows, the outcasts. Love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, all your strength. Love your neighbor as yourself."

In his Sermon on the Mount, he said, "Look to the birds in the field. Has not your Father in heaven clothed them?" It's again and again and again whether you have received Christ's love in your heart, whether you're questioning that. I would encourage anybody to want to receive Christ in their heart. Just remember, we do live in a fallen world, and we do have broken governments.

Anytime there's a government that claims to be Christian and claims Christ's values and then turns around and has policies that do not support the poor, do not uplift people out of poverty, do not become creative problem solvers like what Pope Francis consistently did the entire time he served us as pope, anytime you have a government that says, "Oh, I follow Christ," and then they do the exact opposite of what Christ was teaching, it's very obvious they're the antithesis of Christ's love.

If you have Trump or Vance talking about Christ and his message being for people in their inner circle first and then for people outside of that circle, and that's how you love your neighbor, that is a lie. That is not what love your neighbor as yourself means. I think the best way for people to truly understand-- Sorry?

Brian Lehrer: I was just going to ask, how do you understand, as a Christian who holds the values you've just been articulating, that the other kind of Christianity that you've just been criticizing is so ascendant, not just in Trump and Vance, but around the country?

Olivia: I think it comes back to an issue of humility. When you are faced with Christ's message and you're standing at that crossroads and you're asking, "Do I really believe in what Christ is saying?" I always go back to what C.S. Lewis said in Mere Christianity: either Christ is a madman or he's exactly who he says he is. There's no in between. When you have to face who Christ truly says he is, you also have to acknowledge that there's sin. You have to acknowledge that, yes, you are a sinner, but you can be redeemed through Christ's saving love.

I think anybody who can't acknowledge their own sin, that's where there's this whole trajectory of a lot of churches that want to say, "Oh yes, I believe in Jesus, but did he really die? Was he really resurrected on the third day?" I've heard from some very out-there French people that they think Jesus is walking on this earth right now and never actually died and rose. There's some very, very extreme thought, but I acknowledge that simply taking a leap of faith to believe that Christ did rise and that he does save us from our sins. If you cannot humble yourself to accept that, you get people like Vance, like Trump.

Brian Lehrer: Olivia from Farmingdale, thank you. You get the last word. As the music indicates, we are out of time. Thank you all for your calls after the passing of Pope Francis. That's The Brian Lehrer Show for today, produced by Mary Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Megan Ryan is the head of Live Radio. Juliana Fonda at the audio controls.

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