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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. In our last 15 minutes this morning, we're going to end with a call in for and a guest about working outdoors when the temperature is really, really hot, who has experience with this to talk about both the personal experience of having to be a worker outdoors in extreme heat and the policy questions that this suggests. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Of course, last week in the midst of the first heat wave of the summer in our listening area, we invited you to share your tips and tricks for beating the heat in general. For many workers, especially for those who work outdoors or indoors without air conditioning, temperatures can cause serious illness, even death.

Nationally, about 100 million people were under extreme heat alerts in the last week, but without federal regulation, which there isn't that much of. It's up to states and cities, in some cases, to try and regulate and enforce safe working conditions, and they really vary. Joining us now to discuss efforts to protect workers from extreme heat, both on the federal, and state, and city levels, is Terri Gerstein, Director of the NYU Wagner Labor Initiative. She was a former Labor Bureau chief in the New York State Attorney General's Office and a Deputy Commissioner in the New York State Department of Labor. Terri, welcome back to WNYC. Thank you so much for joining us.

Terri Gerstein: Thank you for having me to talk about this really important subject.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, this is for you too. If you work in hot environments, either outdoors or indoors, help us report this story. What does work feel like when it starts to get really, really hot outside? What precautions do you, or even more to the point of this segment, what precautions does your employer hopefully take as well? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. Are those precautions adequate, either at the level of your employer or the level of the law? 212-433-WNYC, if anyone has current experience or anytime in your working life with this kind of situation, 212-433-9692. Terri, to start off, is there a threshold at which temperatures for workers start to get dangerous? Is there a medical or a legal threshold?

Terri Gerstein: The laws that do exist, as you mentioned, there are some states that do have rules on this, just a handful. Generally, they start off at about 80 degrees as the first threshold, and then there are additional protections needed when you get above 90 degrees. There are other factors too. It's not just as straightforward as what the temperature is. That's a really good starting point, but obviously, it also depends on the humidity, the clothing the person is wearing, and really importantly, the type of work and how strenuous it is.

If someone is doing light work where they're sitting and not moving around very much, that's obviously, a different situation than if they're doing much more intense physical activity.

Brian Lehrer: At the federal level, you're right, the federal government is trying to address the fact that climate change is making working conditions more dangerous each year, but its efforts are not likely to bear fruit quickly enough. What do you have in mind?

Terri Gerstein: The federal government, OSHA, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration is working on a rule about workplace heat. I think it's really important for all of your listeners and everyone to know that protecting workers from extreme workplace heat, it's not rocket science. It's the kind of thing that everyone who is a parent knows what you have to do. It's rest, it's water, it's taking a break in the shade or a cool area, and it's also not going from 0 to 100, but rather having the opportunity to be acclimatized gradually. OSHA is developing a rule about this.

OSHA rules are regulations and usually, it takes them an extremely long time to develop a rule. They have announced their intention to issue a proposed rule, but then after the proposed rule is issued, that's not the end of the process. Then there's a comment period, which is really a great thing because it gives the public the opportunity to weigh in and share their experiences. Then the federal government reads all those comments and comes out with a final rule.

The reason that I think it's going to take a really long time is that business interests are very likely to sue whatever OSHA's rule is. If it protects workers, they're very likely to sue. I think they're really empowered by-- There's often a tendency in business to oppose additional worker protections. Then I think the current Supreme Court emboldens that even further.

Brian Lehrer: You cite five states that, I guess, are out front on protections for workers in the extreme heat, State of Washington, Minnesota, California, Oregon, and Colorado, all in the West. Why there and what are they getting right, in your opinion?

Terri Gerstein: What they're getting right is that they are requiring the basics, as I mentioned, rest, water, shade, and gradual acclimatization. They're also requiring, this is very important, that employers need to actually prepare. That it's not just a question of suddenly there's a heat wave and everybody scrambles and doesn't know what to do, but rather that those-- California, for example, requires employers to have a written heat illness prevention plan. They require employers to train workers and supervisors about what to do in extreme heat and to have emergency procedures in case someone actually does start to get ill.

California also recently passed an indoor heat standard. That's really important point that you mentioned at the beginning. I think people often first off, their mind goes to construction workers, or farm workers, or delivery workers who are delivering packages outside, but there are workers indoors, like at warehouses or restaurants where there's not air conditioning and they too can be at serious risk from workplace heat.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, apologies to Minnesota because I lumped all those five states as being in the West. Minnesota is in the Midwest.

Terri Gerstein: We're all New Yorkers in this conversation, so it's to the west of New York.

Brian Lehrer: That's right. New York, New Jersey, Connecticut in this conversation. Here's Nate in Putnam Valley in New York, you're on WNYC. Hello, Nate.

Nate: Hi. Good morning, Brian. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good. What you got?

Nate: A couple of years ago, I worked for a hotel specifically in setting up for events. Summertime comes around, people get married, people get married outside, and these, of course, are planned a year or two years in advance. The wedding happens to be in the middle of a heat wave, nothing you can do. You got to set it up. You got to bring 200 chairs outside and set them up in the middle of a big lawn. You got to roll tables up, up a big hill from where they're kept to set up all for the reception, you have to set up the tents. It was usually me and about seven other guys setting up for these huge major events. There's a time crunch to this sort of thing.

It's not really something that you could say, "Well, it's 97 degrees out, 90% humidity, the sun is scorching, can we move your big special day to the autumn?" You can't do that. In terms of protections, aside from plenty of water, there wasn't really a lot. The company uniform was a blue polo shirt that was difficult to exert yourself in. It was very challenging. I would have loved the opportunity to just dunk my shirt in ice water and put it back on. You also can't take your shirt off if you're doing this sort of work.

Brian: Even a dress code comes into it in a case like yours where you're supposed to wear this uniform. Thank you for telling your story, Nate. I think that's very informative. Here's another one from somebody in another industry writing in. Listener writes, "Films often shoot outside in this heat and it's miserable." Listener writes, "I've seen several crew people drop and we just keep going. My union 798 requires shelter from weather elements as part of our contract, but we rarely get it. Some shows will have cooling towels.

I feel bad for the actors who will have to work in costumes that can be very hot, and productions do very little for them as well. Oftentimes though, lately I've seen them rent mobile AC units." Terri, there's another couple of industries, hospitality per the caller, and the film industry per the writer.

Terri Gerstein: I think that those two examples, as I was hearing about setting up the wedding, no one is saying that this work shouldn't happen. It's just that there should be more protection. His example of dunking the shirt in the water, having to wear the uniform, if an employer had an advanced heat illness prevention plan, they might have a plan to monitor the weather and hire additional people during the times when the temperatures get above a certain level so that you can have people taking breaks, or maybe they alter the time of day so that people are coming into work earlier before the blazing heat so even if it has to be done for that evening, that the more strenuous work can be done at a different time of day. This is where planning ahead and actually thinking these things through instead of shooting from the hip really makes a big difference.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Again, it would often take government standards for an employer like that to agree to hire extra staff to be able to rotate in the heat in the way you're describing. Listener writes, "I think Texas Governor Abbott signed a law that prevents local counties from mandating water breaks." What? Is that true?

Terri Gerstein: It's horrible. It is so horrible. Several jurisdictions, several localities in Texas passed laws. Austin and I think maybe Dallas passed laws at the local level requiring that construction workers have to be given water breaks. The Texas legislature passed, and Governor Abbott signed a law prohibiting local governments from a whole host of different kinds of lawmaking, including passing laws related to the workplace, including passing laws requiring provision of drinking water to construction workers.

This is part of a broader trend of some conservative state legislatures usurping power and passing what are called pre-emption laws that stop local government from taking all kinds of pro-human activities, whether it's environmental, or protecting workers, or gun control, or more. Yes, Texas passed that law. It's incredibly inhumane. Florida passed a similar law, and Governor DeSantis signed it as well, specifically prohibiting the cities and counties from passing laws to protect the workers there.

Brian Lehrer: Unbelievable.

Terri Gerstein: There's still things that those cities and counties can do. A lot of people don't know how to keep workers safe. Just public education by those cities and counties would make a big difference. They're not without any tools, but they can't legislate because of these really barbaric state level laws.

Brian Lehrer: Robert, in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Robert: Hello there. I'm having a roofer and exterior painters coming this summer. I know this, as you described, there are many variables, but is there a temperature where I can say to them, "Listen, if it's 90 degrees, don't show up." Because if I don't, I have a feeling they'll just burn themselves out.

Brian Lehrer: Or if they're being paid by the day or paid by the job and can't go onto another job until they finish yours, they might not even want to take a hot day off. Terri, that's another complexity.

Terri Gerstein: Right. Again, the laws that do exist kick in at 80 degrees. There are these kinds of accommodations of working during cooler times during the day, for example. Again, the protections are shade, water, rest, and gradually getting acclimatized. None of this is that complicated, but I do think, again, to the extent we have a clear temperature guidance, the state laws that exist do kick in at 80 degrees.

Brian Lehrer: One more horror story to conclude the segment. Listener writes-- Oh, let me get to the beginning of this. It says, "Six-month pregnant visiting nurse, I almost passed out in an unair-conditioned client's home last week. I haven't told my employer that I'm pregnant yet, but I think they would have to accommodate me somehow if I did." 20 seconds, Terri. Is there any particular protection on the books that call from a New York State phone number, so in New York, at least, for pregnant person in this situation?

Terri Gerstein: Right. For a pregnant person, I think there's two different resources I would recommend. One is A Better Balance, which is an organization in New York and nationally that works on pregnant people's rights and the rights of work-life balance issues. Then NYCOSH, the New York Committee on Occupational Safety and Health works on workplace safety and workplace heat. There are resources that are working on this and there are proposals. There's a legislative proposal in New York and in New Jersey to create state heat standards, but they haven't passed yet.

Brian Lehrer: They haven't been passed yet. Terri Gerstein, Director of the NYU Wagner Labor Initiative. Stay cool out there. Thank you so much.

Terri Gerstein: Thank you.

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