Kousha Navidar: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar, filling in for Brian today. New limits on class size are coming to New York City's public schools. That's thanks to a state law from 2022 that's been championed by parents and teachers for years. Smaller classes mean teachers will have more time for each student, but actually implementing the policy comes with growing pains and potential school closures. Plus, let's not forget, it's really expensive. Here to break down what's in store for the city's public schools is Jessica Gould, education reporter for WNYC and Gothamist. Jessica, thanks for joining us.

Jessica Gould: Happy to be here.

Kousha Navidar: How big are public school classes right now, and how would the new limits change them?

Jessica Gould: It's a range because this is already being phased in. I have my numbers here in front of me. Before, the class size limit 1st through 6th grade was as much as 32 students per class, and high school was 34. Classes now have to be between 20 to 25 students, depending on grade. The younger years are 20 and closer to 20, and then it goes up to 25 for high school. It's a big difference.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. I was a high school math teacher as my first career out of college. My class sizes, it wasn't in New York City, it was in Miami, but my class sizes were around 34, and it dropped down to 20 to 25. I remember thinking like, "Okay, I can breathe. I can focus more effectively on students." When you talk to teachers, what are their vibes? What are the kinds of responses you're hearing about their desire to decrease the class sizes?

Jessica Gould: I have yet to meet a teacher who says they would prefer-

Kousha Navidar: "Make it bigger."

Jessica Gould: -a larger class size. Teachers are happy to have this law. Many of them, the teachers' union fought hard for it. Many teachers, many parents advocated for it, but as you say, the implementation is tricky, and it comes with trade-offs, in many cases, that have been difficult for teachers, parents, principals who are trying to implement this and could become a political thorn in the side of Mayor Mamdani and leadership because there are a lot of tough choices ahead.

Kousha Navidar: Which I want to get into in a second. Let's break down a little bit about what the benefit of smaller class sizes are. There's the first order, which more focus per student. Can you break it down a little bit more, please?

Jessica Gould: Yes, I would be interested to hear your experience as a teacher, what you felt you could have done differently with a smaller class size. The research shows that the benefits of small class sizes are on everything, from test scores to engagement to attendance. These gains in terms of the academic research and the studies that are out there can be modest sometimes or diminish over time. The research isn't always as crystal clear as some of the advocates want it to be, but what teachers tell me is that they can give more attention to individual learners.

I think it's only become more and more clear, just the diversity of learning styles that we have, people come into the schools with varying levels of English proficiency, with all the migrant students who came in with varying levels of having been in school at all in recent years. There's just so much to tailor to. The smaller a class size is, the more opportunity teachers have to target the learning towards that kid.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, that resonates with me, at least insofar as that's a good point of reference. I taught high school math, 10th grade. Interestingly, my dad taught high school math in The Bronx, too, 10th grade. I think when he and I talked, both of us said smaller classes, more time for feedback and individualized feedback, which was a big thing, and individual intervention per student. Listeners, we want to hear from you. With schools on break this week, let's hear from teachers and parents. Teachers, have your classes felt too big in the past?

Parents, maybe class size has played a role in where you send your kids to school. Maybe you're a teacher or school administrator, and you'd like to offer some insight into the challenges that you've faced as your school has tried to transition to the new size requirements, or do you have any questions for Jessica? We're here to take your calls and texts at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Okay. While we wait for those calls to come in, schools are in the process of implementing the new policy, but there have been roadblocks, which you mentioned. What makes smaller class sizes tricky to actually put in place?

Jessica Gould: I think the trickiest part, I guess, there are two, is space and staffing. I'm hearing especially about space crunches at schools that are over-enrolled now and highly in demand. They're literally boxed in. There's only so much they can grow. Some are trying to build annexes on the blacktop outside to be able to have enough classes. Then there's the hiring of new teachers, and there's some concern about this massive hiring. How good are these new teachers going to be? Maybe you can speak to coming in as a new teacher right out of college.

Kousha Navidar: It was very difficult, I'll tell you that. Yes. You want experienced teachers in the classroom as well as new ones, yes.

Jessica Gould: Right. That can be complicated. Finding the teachers, making sure that they're up to speed and ready and as good as they can possibly be to staff this, and then finding the placement. Last week, I did a story about P.S. 3 in Manhattan. I talked to the theater teacher there, who really is happy that his classes are starting to be smaller. They're phasing it in. He's got one that's the old way and one that's a new way and smaller.

Kousha Navidar: One that's big and one that's smaller?

Jessica Gould: Right.

Kousha Navidar: Okay.

Jessica Gould: He says he can really see a difference with the smaller class. It's a theater and literacy program. The scripts, he can tailor to the kids' reading levels now that he's more familiar with them, but he is aware that, probably, as more classes get phased into the smaller size, he's going to lose his dedicated theater space, and he'll either be using a portion of the cafeteria that they'll have sort of divided off for theater, or he'll be doing what's-- I'm increasingly hearing this. Arts on a cart.

Kousha Navidar: Arts on a cart. I've heard this phrase before, actually.

Jessica Gould: Yes. When teachers come into your classroom with their materials. That's when that's possible. I've also talked to some administrators at schools, where as many as 10 new classes are needed to meet the requirements, and there's not 10 classes available. There's not even smaller offices that can be turned into classes, or open spaces that can be divided up enough for that. The city has been giving out exemptions for schools that can't yet meet the requirements.

Kousha Navidar: Because of these infrastructure challenges?

Jessica Gould: Because of that, because of the level of enrollment. There are a few different criteria, but these are the kinds of decisions that administrators in particular are grappling with. That's actually a criticism that I've heard about how this has been rolled out, that it's really landed on the shoulders of administrators to figure it out, come up with a plan. "Show us a plan, and if we like it, we'll give you money to do it." That was how it happened under the Adams administration. Some of the chief advocates for this law and some of the parents I've talked to feel like there needs to be a more comprehensive, thoughtful, detailed plan for how the whole city is going to meet this mandate.

Kousha Navidar: Let's bring down a teacher. Ben from Brooklyn. Hi, Ben. Welcome to the show.

Ben: Hi. Thanks for having me on, Kousha. Great job covering today. Love the show.

Kousha Navidar: Thank you.

Ben: Yes. My name is Ben. I use they, them pronouns. I'm a high school math teacher, going on 10 years in the job. It's a little obvious, but if we're going to need an additional, I think Jessica said 6,000 teachers this year in her article, we're going to need more people becoming teachers. It's a steep learning curve at first, but it's a wonderfully fulfilling profession. It's AI-resistant, if you're worried about that. It actually pays really well in New York. It's 80,000 starting salary, yearly raises, pension program, and you get a lot of built-in time off. The reason I'm calling in is because, like you said, we just had the whole week off.

If you're listening now, pondering a career change, consider education. If you're a high school student or a college student thinking about career paths, consider education. I don't think we do a good enough job pitching it.

Kousha Navidar: Ben, I appreciate that. What subject do you teach within math?

Ben: I'm a special education teacher, and I work with algebra, all the way up to senior year, doing calculus.

Kousha Navidar: Cool. Do you feel like you're-- How would a smaller class size affect you?

Ben: Some of my larger classes are in the mid-20s, but I do teach one of my special education classes as a small group of about six or seven students. You can see with that group, it's like a different world of attention that you can give the students. Obviously, that's an extreme case, but every teacher knows those days, where occasionally, a lot of kids are out for a field trip or something, and you feel the difference even with just having a fewer students in the class.

Kousha Navidar: Ben, we really appreciate you teaching, your pitch, and for calling in, so thank you so much for that. Jessica, this is a process that began under former Mayor Eric Adams, which you mentioned. I know his administration had reservations about the changes. Mayor Mamdani, on the other hand, has a different perspective on class sizes. Here's a comment he made just before he took office.

Mayor Zohran Mamdani: For over 900,000 children learning in our public schools, when they think of the future, they think of classrooms so crowded that they cannot get the attention of their teacher, and facilities that have long needed improvement.

Kousha Navidar: Clearly, he supports the new policy, but the approach, which you mentioned, would actually differ from Adams. Can you tell me how it would differ, and what that could mean for how smoothly the rollout goes?

Jessica Gould: I don't know yet that the approach is going to be that different. The attitude and the verbiage on it has been different. He is a more enthusiastic supporter, Mamdani is, of the class size law, and Adams was reluctant. He and his deputies called it an unfunded mandate from the state. Advocates and legislators in Albany pushed back, saying it happened to coincide on purpose with an increase in state funding in general for the schools. So far, the city has spent $450 million on class size implementation. The budget calls for another $500 million, and that would go up from there, from this year under Mamdani. He did put money towards it in his proposed budget. That's under consideration now.

I think what we will have to see is whether his administration is going to make some of the tough choices and trade-offs that the previous administration didn't make. Capping enrollment at schools that are overcrowded or oversubscribed, and that would require then those students going to other schools that have lower enrollments. There are plenty of those because enrollment citywide is decreasing. Even some schools struggle to fit all the kids in their classrooms and in their buildings, but where parents send their kids to school is a highly emotional topic, and there are fights already about how to distribute kids more evenly in a lopsided enrollment situation.

Kousha Navidar: You are listening to The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar, a host here at WNYC. My guest is Jessica Gould, education reporter for WNYC and Gothamist. We're talking about a new policy that's been around for quite a bit, but the deadline to enforce it is coming up, to decrease the enrollment cap on classes, basically to make class sizes smaller. If you are a teacher, if you are a parent, if there are any students that are listening, we know that you're on break. We'd love to hear from you. Give us a call, send us a text. 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Here's Olympia in Manhattan. Olympia, hi. Welcome to the show.

Olympia: Hi there. Thank you for covering this issue and for giving me the opportunity to share the experience that I had in my kids' school with class size reduction. I have two kids right now on 3rd and 5th grade at District 6, Manhattan, in the most overcrowded school of our district. In the past three years, I worked with other parents to try to come up with a plan because there was no plan from DOE, and there was no coordination at the district level.

Frankly, it was sad to hear them describe it as an unfunded mandate, and also to always center the issue as a negative thing, as something that requires only trade-offs, and it's far, and it's impossible, when this is actually a positive reform because we can leverage it to invest in all sorts of other longstanding issues that are schools have. We need to be creative. We need to come up both with short and long term solutions. We could be looking at outdoor learning for younger kids. We could be looking at a multi-session and stack schedule for middle schoolers that are collocated with elementary schools, like in our case. Of course, they would benefit from not starting school at 8:00 AM.

Of course, there is the issues that you guys have been talking, like how do we cap enrollment? How do we bring together communities and start working now, so that the overcrowded and the undercrowded schools-- sorry, under-enrolled schools, they're not like that because of no reason. They're like that because there are issues. Do we give the services to the students that they need them, and then reach for an opportunity similar to those who, and they're not.

Kousha Navidar: Right. Olympia, I really appreciate that perspective. It's something I wanted to ask you about, Jessica. Olympia, thank you so much for leading us into this. How about restructuring, like shifting students and staff around and within and between schools that currently have larger and smaller than average class sizes?

Jessica Gould: Right now, the education department has not greenlit that as a response. There are some school relocations under consideration. I wrote about one on the Upper West Side. An elementary school that's bursting at the seams needs more room to implement class size. The middle school has been proposed by the city to potentially, it's not an official proposal yet, but it's under discussion, to move to another building that does have space, but the parents are concerned because the other building doesn't have the same-- it's a very theater-forward program, and they don't have the theater capability, and there are just things that don't fit with their mission at the moment.

These are the kinds of often dicey political situations that emerge when there is a space crunch.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to Stacy in Queens. Hey, Stacy. Welcome to the show. Stacy, you there?

Stacy: Can you hear me okay?

Kousha Navidar: Yes. Hi, Stacy. Welcome to the show.

Stacy: Hi. Yes, I'm similar to the first caller. I'm also a special education high school teacher covering algebra and geometry. We noticed that there's just certain limitations we have when we have 34 kids in the class. I'm really looking forward to when this is rolled out and implemented because you can't get to every kid.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. How would your classroom change if you were able to have that smaller class size?

Stacy: There are so many things that my co-teachers and I talk about doing, between different types of activities for the kids, splitting the classroom in half, where we are able to do something called parallel teaching, which we just don't have the room for in our classroom. We just don't have the physical space. I'm literally hopping over backpacks and jackets and trying not to trip over our students because of how tight the classrooms are. I'm very lucky to work in a really good, specialized high school, but it's tight, the space.

Kousha Navidar: Stacy, thank you so much for sharing your experience. Also, I'm loving how many math teachers are calling in. Shout out to math. I love that subject, along with every other subject. Subjects are great. Learning's great. Here's another text that I want to share with you, Jessica, though, and I want to get your take. It says, "Hot take. 22-year Department of Education educator, assistant principal, teacher, and parent, think reduced class size is overvalued, particularly by parents. The best indicator of student success, in my opinion, which is largely anecdotal, is teacher quality."

There's more to that text, but I want to get your take on this. I'm sure folks would say class size is great, but can we put our resources elsewhere, or is it being overblown? Have you heard that argument? What do you think about it?

Jessica Gould: Sure. It's not the case for every kid that they need a smaller class. There are some kids who can operate even in high school in a more lecture-like environment. For some schools, the specialized high schools have been exempt so far because they're highly in demand and they're seen to be working very well. The kids, many of the parents argue, don't need the smaller class size. Also, there is this concern about, as we talked about, if we have to hire a ton of new teachers, will all of those teachers be good enough?

Kousha Navidar: Sure. There's another good question from texts. "Are New York schools funded on a per-student basis? If so, how could smaller class sizes affect school budgets?"

Jessica Gould: That's a good question. They are funded on a per-student basis, and they are funded, but with weights according to student needs and certain other characteristics. I was just talking to a parent earlier today about how the principal at their school isn't necessarily on board with every element of this class size reduction plan because they see their budgets getting smaller. Now, theoretically, if you have fewer students, maybe you have fewer needs, but I think that's a concern.

Kousha Navidar: You've reported that 80% of city public schools are supposed to be in compliance with the law by September. That's a pretty heavy lift. How are they getting ready for the fall, and how close are they to reaching that goal? If you can give some sense of scope?

Jessica Gould: It's a really good question. I'm trying to figure that out right now. What I've heard so far is that for schools where this is a challenge, and that's not every school, they are looking at how to hire more teachers, how to build more space, or reconfigure space, putting two office sizes together to make a classroom, putting up these dividers, kind of thing. These are some of the things that I'm starting to hear about.

Kousha Navidar: Got you. Before I let you go, let me just ask, what happens next? What should parents and teachers expect to see over the next few months as schools work toward that 80% compliance goal?

Jessica Gould: I think that we're going to be seeing more of these questions in city districts, school districts within the city, about how to merge schools, relocate schools, some of these really challenging questions about how to reallocate space.

Kousha Navidar: What happens if it doesn't happen, the 80% doesn't happen in September, the city falls short? Is there any discussion about that?

Jessica Gould: That's a really good question. This is something that I knew at one point and forgot a little bit. I think that there are-- you get penalized with funding, but I'm not sure how soon that sets in.

Kousha Navidar: Okay. That's all the time we have. We've been speaking with Jessica Gould, education reporter for WNYC and Gothamist. Callers, thank you so much for calling in and giving us your perspective. Jessica, thank you so much for joining us in the studio and for all of your reporting. We really appreciate it.

Jessica Gould: Thank you.

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