Brigid Bergin: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin, filling in for Brian today. Now, we'll end today's show with some advice for those of you who feel like you're living in a different country than maybe some of your friends. For many who follow politics and the news, even in the most normal times, it feels impossible to understand how friends and family seem to be going about their lives completely oblivious to the rapid onset of authoritarianism. Having a hard time with that word this morning.
That was the premise of a recent edition of Vox's Your Mileage Will Vary advice column. I'll read an excerpt of the submission, see if you can relate. "I feel increasingly alarmed by what's happening politically in America. Yet, even in light of everything in Minnesota, some of my friends seem very apolitical. Instead of talking about ways to get involved, they're going about with 'business as usual'."
"Maybe they think they're not the target, so this isn't urgent for them personally, or maybe they're just busy with their own families and jobs and don't know if it's their role to get involved in a political fight. My strong intuition is that we're all obligated to play some role in this, but I don't know how to convey to them or how to articulate exactly what that role should be. How can I convince them that we're past the point of 'business as usual' and talk to them about what they owe the rest of the country?"
Listeners, are you noticing a similar vibe in your social circles? Does it seem like everyone around you is going on with "business as usual" while you ruminate on the latest horrific event? How are you dealing with living in a different reality from your loved ones? Have you successfully convinced anyone in your life that it's time to take action? Maybe you recognize your past self in this description. Were you previously apolitical, but something caused you to wake up? Call or text us with your questions and advice. The number's 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. With me now to explain this phenomenon and how to navigate these conversations with loved ones is Sigal Samuel, senior reporter for Vox's Future Perfect. Sigal, welcome back to WNYC.
Sigal Samuel: Thank you so much.
Brigid Bergin: Sigal, this advice column, Your Mileage Will Vary, focuses on providing a framework for thinking through our moral dilemmas. What's the moral dilemma at the center of this submission?
Sigal Samuel: Yes, so I got the submission to my Your Mileage May Vary column that was basically saying, "I have all these friends who don't seem politically active. I really think that everyone has some moral obligation to play a role in politics, in American life right now. I don't know exactly how to articulate what that role or obligation is, but how can I convince my friends that we're past the point of business as usual and everyone needs to do something?"
Brigid Bergin: You begin your response by introducing readers to a man named Ernst Fraenkel.
Sigal Samuel: That's right.
Brigid Bergin: Who was Ernst Fraenkel? Why is he a helpful character in our quest to understand our current moment?
Sigal Samuel: Yes, I think Fraenkel can help give us a framework for how to think about this. Fraenkel was a German-Jewish political scientist. Back in the 1930s, he was living in Germany. He was a keen observer of the Nazi political system. Then, after he moved to the US, he published a book in 1941 called The Dual State. I just want to say, clearly, it's not that I think we're facing a situation as grave as Nazism in America right now. We're not in 1940s Germany, but Fraenkel's analysis can still give us a helpful framework for understanding the broad contours of what's going on.
His main insight is that life under authoritarianism is actually weirdly normal most of the time. It can often be pretty boring in the sense that the typical person can go about their day basically as usual. You take your kids to school. You go to the office. You host a dinner party. Fraenkel says, "That's you living in one half of the dual state," which he calls the normative state. It's like the state in which everything basically looks normal. It's easy to think that if you just keep your head down, you'll be fine.
Brigid Bergin: What's the other state?
Sigal Samuel: The other state is what Fraenkel calls the prerogative state. That is a state that only becomes visible to you when you suddenly do something that upsets the powers that be. Once you do that, suddenly, you tip over into this realm where the rule of law does not exist. Citizens can be killed with impunity. Even you, if you thought you were invulnerable before, suddenly, you can become a target as well. Fraenkel basically says the first state, the business-as-usual one, exists to lull us into a sense of complacency. We don't realize that that second state, the prerogative one, is actually operating in parallel with it.
Brigid Bergin: Listeners, are you noticing something like what Sigal's describing in your own social circles? A sense that some people are living in business-as-usual times, and others are more gripped by the sense that we are slipping into authoritarianism. Maybe you recognize yourself in this description. Were you previously apolitical, but something caused you to wake up, or are you just struggling with the kinds of conversations you're having with your friends and family? We want to hear your stories. You can call or text us with your questions and advice at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Sigal, I'm wondering. What role do identity and privilege play in our individual experiences of these dual states as you were describing them?
Sigal Samuel: Yes, so I think it can be really disorienting for people to feel like they have this strong sense of something very particular is happening in political life, but their friends are not paying attention. They can be confused as to why the friends are acting like everything's normal. I actually think if you're using Fraenkel's analysis, it's not that surprising to see that some of your friends have been politically inactive, especially if they're people who tend to think of themselves as not the target.
If they're citizens, if they're white, if they don't speak with the "wrong accent" or express "wrong political views" in public, it's very easy for them to think everything is mostly normal, because the whole political system in a dual state is exactly designed to make them think that, to make them think you're in the normative state. It's business as usual. If you're privileged in that way that you're not immediately legible or visible to the dual state as someone who should be a target, it's very easy to go along for a long time thinking things are mostly okay.
Brigid Bergin: We have a caller from Merrick, New York. Diana, you have a question for Sigal?
Diana: Yes, I'm very concerned about what's going on. I have a tendency to maybe take a screenshot of a New York Times article giving certain factual information. I put my two cents in sometimes, so no cursing. I try very hard not to put down the administration. I'm just trying so hard to state the facts. Do you think it's appropriate to post politically on something like Facebook and other social media, or should I keep my thoughts to myself? I've noticed even people who tend to agree with me do not like my posts.
Brigid Bergin: Sigal, I think that goes to the larger question is, how do we get people to understand that maybe we're living in this dual state if they're not necessarily experiencing some of this darker half in their daily lives?
Sigal Samuel: Absolutely, yes. I think this is a very good and relatable question. I think that we know from psychology research that, unfortunately, brute facts tend not to be very convincing to people. They tend not to change people's minds on their own. What I suggest in my column is that you give people two things. First, a frame. I suggest Fraenkel's framework of the dual state.
I think explaining to people, "Hey, let's take a step back. Here's why you might be seeing things very differently from how I'm seeing things," it's actually like, "It's not that you're dumb or it's your fault. It's that the state is purposely designed to make you perceive it differently than I perceive it." I think giving people Fraenkel's frame first and then making that even more effective by placing a particular picture inside the frame, like a concrete illustration of the dual state.
In the column, I suggest in this context, talking about Renée Nicole Good because, in some ways, tragically, she's an illustration of Fraenkel's insight because she was shot to death by ICE, but she was not armed. She was sitting in her car. She was a white woman, a citizen, right? This is not someone you would normally expect to be targeted. She was killed anyway. I think that, tragically, makes her an illustration of the fact that authoritarianism can feel a lot like normal and predictable life until, suddenly, it doesn't, and then anyone can become a target. I would suggest pairing the frame with the picture that goes inside the frame as something that might be more effective than simply presenting people with facts.
Brigid Bergin: I want to try to sneak in another caller very quickly. John in Daytona, Florida, you've got about 30 seconds.
John: Thank you. The reason people tend to be apolitical is to avoid confrontation, I believe. I have a situation. I came from Westchester County, New York. I'm down here now for two years. I love it. Most of my family are progressives and part of the working party. I can't express any opinions with people that will not accept any other opinion. People stay away and are termed or labeled apolitical when it's just people that are aware that don't want conflict because there's no reasoning.
Brigid Bergin: John, thank you for that perspective. Sigal, as we're wrapping up here, just quickly, can you give us a description of the grandkid test and how that might help us? You've got about 20 seconds.
Sigal Samuel: Absolutely. I think if all else fails, a great way to get through to people is give them the grandkid test, that is, tell them that, one day, their grandkids might ask them what they did in the wake of Minnesota or under this administration broadly. Will they be able to answer the grandkid in a way that makes that young face beam with pride? If not, maybe it's a prod to think more carefully about what you're doing.
Brigid Bergin: Sure. We're going to have to leave it there for today. My guest has been Sigal Samuel, senior reporter for Vox's Future Perfect. I'm Brigid Bergin. That's it for The Brian Lehrer Show today. Stay tuned for All Of It. Thanks so much.
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