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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now our climate story of the week, which we do every Tuesday on the show this year. We focus this week on Southeast Queens, where climate change has brought about what some residents are calling a double whammy of heavy rains and high tides. Translate that to flooding in many homes predominantly owned by Black New Yorkers in Southeast Queens.

Joining us now to discuss how residents there are at the forefront of some of the worst impacts of climate change, including the property damage they're experiencing and efforts the city has made to combat these inequities and whether they're enough and whether there's an environmental justice issue here is Roxanne L. Scott, independent journalist working on a series with the New York Amsterdam News about climate change in Southeast Queens. Roxanne, thanks so much for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Roxanne L. Scott: Thank you so much, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: You write about a few places in Queens, but you begin your latest piece on Brookville Boulevard, or Snake Road, as locals call it, which you write has always been prone to high water. For listeners not familiar, can you describe Snake Road, what neighborhood it's actually a part of, who lives there, and what happens when it rains?

Roxanne L. Scott: Sure. Snake Road, officially known as Brookville Boulevard, snakes or winds through wetlands. What that means is that about a mile- almost a mile of that road starts in about Rosedale, the neighborhood of Rosedale, and it takes you across through the wetlands. You can say very easy way to get to the Rockaways and what have you, but because it snakes through this wetlands, it is prone to flooding. Also, because it's low, when there's heavy rain, it also floods pretty badly. Sometimes that can lead to road closures.

Brian Lehrer: What's the reference from one of your sources, who's a resident, to the term "double whammy"?

Roxanne L. Scott: Double whammy is there is a person I interviewed in Rosedale where I live, actually, who lives a little bit off Snake Road. Her home is on a dead-end street and it touches, actually, the wetland. Not only does her home flood from heavy rains, the block she lives in slopes slightly, a little bit, but because she's on the dead end and she overlooks these wetlands, there's a big body of water that- actually, it's pretty small, but it can swell to come into her home and flood her block, flood her basement, flood other residents, neighbor houses on that block as well.

Brian Lehrer: Demographically, who lives there?

Roxanne L. Scott: Rosedale is now mostly Black and brown. The person that I interviewed, her name is Estefani. She's from the Dominican Republic. Many people who live here actually come from the Caribbean, Haiti, Jamaica, more so, the Dominican Republic, Guyana, for example. Predominantly Black and brown neighborhood, but it wasn't always that way, but currently it is.

Brian Lehrer: Certainly, a lot of New Yorkers not from there think of it as a largely Black area. Mayor Adams is from Southeast Queens. City Council speaker Adams is from Southeast Queens. That leaves an impression.

Roxanne L. Scott: Yes, definitely. When some residents have told me when they complain, when they write letters to the mayor's office or other elected officials, and they feel that their issues are not getting resolved, not only with flooding, but also quality of life issues, it can sometimes sting. A lot of these issues are decades long.

Brian Lehrer: People hearing this for the first time may be thinking, okay, it's a low-lying area so you're going to get flooding, and that's that. Of course, they have to do something about it. In terms of a cause, okay, it's a low-lying area. There's going to be flooding, but you write, "Historic disinvestment in Black and brown neighborhoods across the city has now left homeowners at the mercy of flooding that has been intensified by the climate crisis. Residents have pushed for solutions for decades, but many believe their concerns are ignored."

Can you take us a bit through the history of this area? What's the disinvestment that you refer to. and how far back does it go?

Roxanne L. Scott: Sure. I looked at the redlining maps for New York City back in the 1930s. Rosedale was very different at the time and, or what is now considered Rosedale or then considered Rosedale. It was actually predominantly a predominantly white area. I don't focus so much on the redlining aspect as far as the racial composition of Southeast Queens, but more so, these maps and documents show and acknowledge the environmental threats of Southeast Queens. Many include being a low-lying area, lack of sewers. If you go up to more St. Albans, there's concern about the neighborhood being near the railroad industry.

There's decades-long acknowledgment of the environmental threats and hazards in this area of Queens and, of course, in other areas of New York City. Of course, these maps were used to service mortgages to people who could stay in their homes, but these areas that were labeled yellow or declining, which was Rosedale at the time, and also red, which was hazardous, which is parts of Springfield Gardens, also part of Southeast Queens and South Jamaica, outlined these- made it a threat to invest in these areas when it comes to public investment and also private investment such as banks and things like that.

Brian Lehrer: Right now in our climate story of the week, looking at flooding in Southeast Queens as a function of climate change, the racial justice and climate justice aspects of that, and what the city is doing and should do with Roxanne L. Scott, who's an independent journalist working on a series with New York Amsterdam News about climate change in Southeast Queens.

Listeners, our phones are open for a few minutes now on this. Any residents of Rosedale? We were just talking about Rosedale or Rockaways or elsewhere in Southeast Queens impacted by flooding. Hurricane Irma really brought this to the forefront of the news for the first time for a lot of people not from there a few years ago. We'll talk about that. If you're a homeowner there, what have you experienced? If you have any ties to the neighborhood, tell us a story.

Also, express an opinion. What do you think the city should do to help? Do you want to be bought out of your home? Do you think infrastructure investments can help you stay in your home or anything else you'd like to share or ask? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text. Let's take a call right now from Reid in Far Rockaway. Rei2d, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Reid: Hi, Brian. Long time, long time. I'm not a homeowner in Southeast Queens, but I'm an arborist and I've worked on a lot of stormwater management projects where they install what are called bioswales, which are basically a little-- You can imagine it like a sponge tank that is installed on the curb and usually plant a rain garden or a tree in there. They're, in my opinion, and a lot of other researchers supported this, the best way to scale stormwater management infrastructure. They don't require trenching in the streets that takes years to finish. They also don't have to take the water out to a central processing location.

My understanding of this is that with city budget cuts in recent years, those bioswales, because they're considered, "voluntary, non-essential," have been the first thing to go when they're cutting funding projects at DDC. We have a solution already, but they're not really implementing it, even though it's very easy to scale.

Brian Lehrer: That's interesting. Roxanne, is this new to you? Is there anything you as a journalist on this beat want to ask Reid?

Roxanne L. Scott: Yes. I do see these rain gardens in my neighborhood and in other parts of Southeast Queens. It's very interesting to hear that unfortunately, these may be the first things to go when it comes to it sounds like an easy fix to some of the flooding, the types of flooding in Southeast Queens and other parts of the city.

Brian Lehrer: Reid, thank you very much. Very interesting. You write about the Rockaway Peninsula- he was calling from the Rockaways- and how it's designated Red on the city's evacuation zone map. What does that mean?

Roxanne L. Scott: Yeah. There's various colors of the rainbow when it comes to the city's evacuation map and plans, and red, orange, yellow, green, what have you. Red means that in the event that there is a mandated evacuation due to a storm, that area of the city is the first, will be the first to be mandated to leave.

All of the Rockaway peninsula, even though I don't touch on the Rockaway peninsula a lot, it's more about Rosedale, but residents have shared concerns that if there is a mandated evacuation from the Rockaways, this heavily trafficked road already on Brookville Road will just be even more heavily trafficked. That can be detrimental when there's a mandated evacuation and there's flooding and there's tidal flooding or a heavy rainstorm.

Brian Lehrer: With cars snaking through on Snake Road, which won't be a good thing. Does it have the nickname Snake Road, by the way, because of its proximity to wetlands and there have been actual snakes that have shown up there?

Roxanne L. Scott: [laughs] I actually don't know about the snakes. That's a really good question. I did not research that. My assumption is that it's--

Brian Lehrer: Next article.

Roxanne L. Scott: Yes, next article, snakes on Snake Road, coming soon. No, my understanding is that it's Snake Road because it's so windy, and it's slippery once it gets wet as well, but because it's so windy.

Brian Lehrer: I see. You write about how Hurricane Ida-- I think I said Irma a minute ago, that was something else. Obviously, Hurricane Ida was the one recently, 2021. You right that it, "Killed more than a dozen New Yorkers, mostly in Queens." How do you thread that needle between weather events and what scientists are seeing as climate change causing that kind of flooding, and even fatal flooding in Queens?

Roxanne L. Scott: I think that there has been this investment. I don't want to sit here and say nothing is being done in Southeast Queens. There are these projects, huge projects, to the tune of a total of $2.5 billion, I want to say, that are addressing these issues, including flooding and needing of more catch basins, but for people that I spoke to, it seems like that this investment was a long time coming.

What ends up happening is that there's this game of catch up when it comes to infrastructure fixes in Queens and Southeast Queens, particularly around flooding, when maybe if these projects were happening all along, maybe we could be in a better place.

Brian Lehrer: You write, for example, that in 2013, former governor Andrew Cuomo announced plans to fund repairs post Sandy- Sandy was in 2012- and build resiliency projects under the New York Rising program. The $750 million initiative was supposed to identify New Yorkers most urgent needs. Is that an example of what you were just talking about, things that get discussed but don't actually happen?

Roxanne L. Scott: Yes, that's a great example. Yes, like you said, post Sandy, there were these projects and many projects across the state to address these urgent needs. Brookville Boulevard, Snake Road, was one of those projects. It's very similar to a new project that may be happening now. I think it's the Brookville Boulevard Elevation project. It was to study raising the road because longtime residents have actually said, along with the rain gardens that the caller just mentioned, one way more expensive solution to this road is to raise the road. That study was supposed to look into the feasibility of that and that funding. Like with other projects, there has been great local reporting about other resiliency projects that just evaporated, unfortunately, with those New York rising plans under Governor Cuomo.

Brian Lehrer: Raise Snake Road, cap the cross Bronx Expressway, theoretically good ideas that never seem to actually happen. Jose in Rosedale, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jose.

Jose: Oh, sorry. I'm actually not in Rosedale. I'm in Brooklyn, but I work for New York Communities for Change. We're a membership based organization in New York with members in Southeast Queens.

Brian Lehrer: Sorry, I had you inaccurately in Rosedale, but you're doing some work there. Go ahead. Apologize.

Jose: Yes, we're working with residents that have been affected by climate change since Sandy, and they're regularly dealing with the flooding, all the stuff that we're talking about here, mold. Many of them since Sandy have not been adequately helped by FEMA. Also, a lot of folks that have had this problem have also reported a lot of problems with the insurance companies raising rates or dropping them altogether. More than anything, this has been a cause for people sometimes having to abandon their homes. That's what we're working on now.

Brian Lehrer: In your experience, or based on your experience, what would the best solution or set of solutions be?

Jose: Well, I think from talking with residents, from our experience, there is a lot of things that we've been strategizing with residents, including legislation that we proposed on insurance companies. There is, I think, programs from the city and the state in terms of buying homes so that people can get to a place. The problem is, I think that there isn't a cohesive plan to do something. I think this also connects to the wider insurance issue that's going on all over the country, where there's areas that insurance companies are receiving from and the insurer of last resort, which is going to be the state, is [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Although maybe the insurance companies, instead of being seen as the bad guy, should be seen as the leading indicator of what needs to be done because flooding is actually becoming more common in a lot of areas. Therefore, insurance companies are going to have to make more payouts than they did in the past. You can't really ask them to just keep losing money by not raising the rates. Maybe that just is an indicator of something else that needs to be done.

Jose: I think you're right. I think that the insurance companies are ahead of the game. They have a lot of data, a lot of information, and they understand, but there is a hypocrisy by the insurance companies because they're the ones who also insure a lot of the fossil fuel projects that create the problem.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting.

Jose: There needs to be regulation from there--

Brian Lehrer: On that at level.

Jose: Yes, there needs to be regulation on [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: Real briefly, because we have a caller standing by to be next who works for FEMA, it looks like. What was the FEMA angle that you stated before that they're not doing?

Jose: Many of our members who experienced dislocation from Sandy are still struggling sometimes to get back into their homes or adequately helped.

Brian Lehrer: Jose, thank you very much for calling. We really appreciate all the insight that you gave us. Let me jump right to Michael in Lawrenceville, New Jersey, who, if I have it right, works for FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Michael, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Michael: Good morning. Yes. I'm a reservist with FEMA, which means I'm on call to respond whenever a state requests-- FEMA send folks in to help remediate whatever disaster is being dealt with. Before we go any further, I just want to say that FEMA is always and only ever present when the state requests its presence. It's always a cooperative arrangement. The finances have to be worked out between the state and FEMA.

The notion, and I, we see this again and again, people think often of FEMA as the savior, the white knight who's coming to the rescue. It doesn't work that way. I just want to [chuckles] make that clear. That said, I spent a lot of time in [inaudible 00:18:18] around the country, in the Midwest and California. Urban flooding is a national problem as the previous callers have stated, and the insurance issue is significant.

The other thing that I think is really prominent stands out here is the low income status of many of these low-lying areas. They have maybe been in areas in the some previous period of time. Underinvestment in those areas in terms of renewing and reinforcing the infrastructure is a significant issue. Some good news from the Midwest in places like Petts Wood in Chicago is that community organizations like the one the previous caller belongs to seem to be leading the charge in terms of trying to come up with concrete material responses.

This is an issue, obviously, that's going to be on the docket for cities around the country, especially in low-lying areas, the great lakes, coastal California, Louisiana, Texas. I guess the take home from this really is that these problems are immensely complex and there's no one single actor that is in a position to really resolve the situation.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, thank you very much for your call and your insights. Roxanne, we're running out of time. I just want to acknowledge the fact that we're getting multiple calls and texts from people saying some version of I lived in Rosedale 30, 40, 50 years ago and it was flooding then. I think the implication is this is not just a function of climate change in the modern era. It would be oversimplifying to make it sound like that.

One listener texts, "I live in Springfield Gardens. I was surprised to learn the reason why the area is partly called Springfield is because there's actual springs under the land. Particularly when it rains heavily, the ground can absorb only so much." You get the idea?

Roxanne L. Scott: Yes, definitely. I think I did mention that in the article that this has been a decades-long problem. Some residents I spoke to are afraid that it may become more of a problem, but I definitely don't want to say that Rosedale and parts of Southeast Queens have just begun to start flooding because of climate change.

Brian Lehrer: Is your series complete? If so, how can people find it? If not what can we look for still coming up in the Amsterdam News?

Roxanne L. Scott: Yes, this is the second story. My first story focused more on ponding. You can find my stories on amsterdamnews.com/nature. You will find flooding stories and other great climate reporting from other reporters at the New York Amsterdam News. I'm still interested in exploring flooding on communities on Jamaica Bay. I don't know what type, but one of the things I learned is the different types of floating, tidal, storm surge, what have you. I'm still interested in learning about how the different types of flooding work in New York City.

Brian Lehrer: Are you asking for listeners in that area to contact you with stories, or not really?

Roxanne L. Scott: No. You should definitely [chuckles] contact me. I am very findable online. I am very findable on social media, so please do contact me. I would love to talk to you.

Brian Lehrer: She is Roxanne L. Scott, independent journalist working on a series with the New York Amsterdam News about climate change in Southeast Queens. Thanks so much for coming on and being our guest on this week's climate story of the week.

Roxanne L. Scott: Thank you so much, Brian.

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