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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. The Adams administration has focused its attention on making the subway safer and in large measure, it has worked. Here's the mayor speaking to reporters on Wednesday this week, but spoiler alert, this segment is not going to be about subway safety.

Mayor Adams: A year to date, transit crime is down 7.8% and if you take out the first two years of the pandemic when no one was on the system, our system is now the safest in over 14 years, but here is a number, number that I was really impressed by. We currently, robberies, year to date, are the lowest point in recorded history.

Brian Lehrer: Here's what we're going to talk about. A contrast between what the mayor just said about the subways and what's happening on the roads. New reporting from our colleagues at Gothamist shows that more New Yorkers were killed by drivers during the first six months of 2024 than those who were fatally shot, killed by guns over the same period. Joining us now to break down the latest data and what we might do about it are WNYC and Gothamist transportation reporter Stephen Nessen and editor on the New York City Accountability desk, Clayton Guse. Clayton and Stephen, welcome back to the show.

Clayton Guse: Hey, Brian.

Stephen Nessen: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Clayton, you report that New Yorkers are now far more likely to be killed in a car crash than a shooting. Can you break down the numbers?

Clayton Guse: Right. It's data that I like to look at from time to time just because I think it's a useful comparison when we talk about public safety and public health, but during the first six months of the year, the city saw 127 traffic fatalities. That's a figure that's been going up. Since Adams took office has been going in the wrong direction since the pandemic and you compare that to the number of fatal shootings reported by the NYPD, and there were 82 fatal shootings this year. 127 traffic deaths versus 82 fatal shootings during the first six months of the year. That's a pretty big delta.

As you're getting at earlier, as the traffic fatalities are going up and in the wrong direction, there is probably some credit to be heard here to the NYPD and all the other factors that go into cracking down on crime because shootings have dropped precipitously. 116 fatal shootings in the first six months of 2023. That's down to 82 this year, but still, the point that I think we were trying to make in last week's newsletter is that as we talk about public safety and we talk about public health, what gets lost a lot is the dangers that come from cars in the city.

Brian Lehrer: It's a media question too, and it's a public perception of risk, psychological question. Heads up, Brooke Gladstone and Michael Lowinger. Here's maybe a segment for you guys for on the media, but Stephen, certainly, there's so much public focus on the risk of violent crime on the streets. It's hard to get people as excited, it's hard to get as much media coverage about the dangers of cars on the streets despite the comparative statistics that you two are reporting. I'm so glad that you framed it in this one-to-one way like this.

Stephen Nessen: I spoke with some experts who did also note like you were saying on the media-type episode. When there's a person that's killed by a vehicle, you don't necessarily get the same questioning or outrage from reporters. When there's a shooting or there's several shootings in a weekend, everyone asks the mayor Monday morning, "What are you going to do about this?"

Whereas you could have a pretty brutal weekend of traffic deaths and there's not necessarily the same outrage like, "Well, what are you going to do to fix this intersection?" or "Why are cars allowed to go that fast on that particular road?" You don't get the same questioning. Of course, here at Gothamist. I think we do do that. I think Streetsblog does a good job of that as well, but the larger media landscape and nationally, of course, as well.

Brian Lehrer: Stephen, can you take us one step further into the data? Who, which New Yorkers are more likely to die as a result of a traffic fatality than others?

Stephen Nessen: Well, pedestrians certainly lead from our reporting from the first six months of the year, just looking at that, it's 61 pedestrians. As far as e-bike riders, actually, the DOT does break it out now. It's 9 riders of e-bikes, 3 traditional bikes, 10 people on a moped, 11 motorcyclists, and also 31 motor vehicle occupants. The DOT did note that there was some, I think on New Year's Eve, several people died in one big fiery crash. That drove the numbers up.

Brian Lehrer: Clayton, what does the Department of Transportation think is the cause of the rising car-related fatalities?

Clayton Guse: There's one ongoing trend nationally that reckless driving has been on the rise since the pandemic and for a couple reasons I think. In the pandemic, the streets were largely empty and people were driving more aggressively. I think anyone walking around the city in 2020 could tell you that and the DOT is crediting that there. While subway ridership has not returned to pre-pandemic levels and the uses of mass transit, automobile use in the city has. It's at or above pre-pandemic levels. People are driving and not taking the train as much.

The other interesting thing that might raise hairs on the neck of a certain contingent of our audience, the DOT did say, hey, we're seeing a lot of mid-block crossings, pedestrian deaths tied to mid-block crossings. Of course, that means jaywalking.

Brian Lehrer: Stephen, we've discussed this on the program with you before, but this is the 10-year anniversary of Mayor Bill de Blasio's Vision Zero Initiative which aimed to reduce traffic fatalities as close to zero as possible, but you're right, traffic deaths in the city are on pace to reach their highest numbers since. Has the program changed at all under the Adams administration? I heard what Clayton was just saying about the difference in people's behavior, how much they're driving, for example, since before the pandemic, but has the Mayor Adams' version of Vision Zero been different or somehow less than the Mayor de Blassio version?

Stephen Nessen: That's a tough question to answer. There's two different ways to look at it. On the one hand, as we've reported, there are a bunch of big projects that the mayor just either killed or watered down or just didn't really see to their full potential. For example, the McGuinness Boulevard redesign was supposed to really slow down that speedy corridor, and the mayor just got so much pushback from high-profile donors, people close to the mayor, and his associates. He watered the program down to a point where it's not really doing the thing that it was intended to do. There's supposed to be two way protected bike lanes, and that didn't happen.

Fordham Road was supposed to get a busway that was totally killed. There's other smaller street safety projects that got watered down, but on the other hand, to his credit, I think they are moving forward with some daylighting that's preventing cars from parking right at an intersection so that people crossing can see the vehicle that's coming. I think they've been aggressive at least trying to roll some of that out. They have expanded several bus lanes, bike paths, bike ways, but the protected bike lanes, they were supposed to do something like 50 miles every year and the mayor's administration has not come anywhere close to meeting that.

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC FM HDNA in New York, WNJT FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Net Kong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio on the New York side right now talking about the shocking and unusual for most years statistics. Significantly, more people have died by car than died by gun in New York City so far this year with Clayton Guse, editor on our New York City Accountability desk, and our transportation reporter Stephen Nessen. Max on the Lower East Side, you're on WNYC. Hi, Max.

Max: Hi. I'm wondering how NYPD enforcement efforts play into this because I'm seeing some data in something called the Mayor's Management report that's, for example, this past year, there were about 650,000 moving violations summonses, and that's down from about over a million back in 2014. If we look at DWI arrests, back in 2014, there were over 10,000 DWI arrests, and that was about 3,600 last year.

Now, one would hope that's because there's less driving while intoxicated but I wonder about that and I'm just wondering here, are police officers perhaps less likely to pull cars over because things can go awry in traffic stops and maybe cops feel like they're not going to get the benefit of the doubt? I just don't know, but the other thing about DWI arrests is they don't report how many are proactive versus reactive.

Ideally, we'd be making proactive DWI arrests before the damage is done. I live not far from where the individuals were killed on the Lower East side over the July 4th. I'm wondering if your reporters have looked into that, the NYPD enforcement.

Brian Lehrer: Max. Thank you. Stephen, would that be for you?

Stephen Nessen: I was just going to chime in and make a point, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Go ahead.

Stephen Nessen: I think Max isn't wrong that NYP stops and enforcement is down. I think that's been trending down really over the last 10 years, really since Eric Garner and a lot of other high profile police killings made in the national fore. There has been a kind of a pullback of stops, especially car stops because as Max points out, often a lot of things can go wrong. Police don't really particularly like to do car stops because it's dangerous for them and also there's a police accountability end of it.

Now, at the same time, the city over the last 10 years has really changed a lot of its traffic enforcement away from police stops and towards automated cameras. You've seen a massive rollout of speed and red light cameras that are really responsible for issuing a lot of those summonses. Now, at the same time, a speed red light camera can't put points on your license. It certainly can't give you a breathalyzer to crack down on DWIs.

Clayton Guse: There was also that program that sunsetted last year where drivers who racked up a bunch of red light and speeding tickets were supposed to go to some sort of training, potentially lose their vehicle if they don't correct their behavior. That died under the Adams administration, pardon the language. I will also say street advocates and traffic advocates around the country credit New York City with a pretty robust red light and speeding camera program.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. We'll take Vic on the upper West Side. You're on WNYC. Hi.

Vic: Hi. Yes. Good morning. I wonder if the reporters could comment on New York City's rule of two, that is a pedestrian legally crossing a street with the light in a crosswalk can be hit and killed, and the driver will not be charged with any sort of manslaughter. Only if the driver is drunk or speeding or some other gross driving violation will they be charged with any type of manslaughter.

Brian Lehrer: Well, what do you think the standard should be, Vic, if they're driving responsibility and what we used to call an accident happens? What do you think the standard should be?

Vic: How about some sort of involuntary manslaughter? You've just killed someone with your car and they've been legally crossing the street with the light. Well, that responsibility is on the driver.

Brian Lehrer: Well, yes, in that scenario, the driver has run the red light but is that the standard? Clayton, do you have a comment on this.

Clayton Guse: I think it's complicated. It's really a case by case basis, but people who do hit people with their vehicle it's a long slog for a DA to prosecute them at a pretty high level. It happens but I think it is actually pretty infrequent and it's challenging to prove in court.

Stephen Nessen: Yes, the burden of proof is like the big challenge here. Are there surveillance cameras around? The NYPD's crash investigation unit does go out to every fatal crash and look into this but again, even if you were driving against the light, the burden of proof in court to determine that and charge it and is it worth the DA's time to seek a conviction, it involves much more than the police, but the whole legal system.

Brian Lehrer: Stephen, we have 30 seconds left before we go to the news and then Congressman Hakeem Jeffries to talk about the Biden situation and more. Has the Adams administration responded to your reporting and this eye popping number of so many more deaths by car than deaths by gun in New York City this year?

Stephen Nessen: Not really. They haven't really gotten into it. They certainly haven't changed their tact or approach, but I think Adams came into office professing to crack down on gun violence. He also billed himself as the street safety mayor. I think one of those things has come to pass and the other one maybe didn't get as much attention.

Brian Lehrer: Stephen Nessen, our transportation reporter, Clayton Guse, editor on the New York City Accountability Desk for WNYC and Gothamist, and definitely sign up for their newsletter, which is about transportation called On the Way, WNYC's on the Way Newsletter. Thank you, both.

Stephen Nessen: Thanks, Brian.

Clayton Guse: Thank you.

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