[MUSIC]

Tiffany Hansen: It's the Brian Lehrer show. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Tiffany Hansen in for Brian today. Just a reminder, Brian will be here tonight on air for a special two-hour on the election and the media. That's a call-in. It starts at eight o'clock tonight. You can join Brian for that right here on WNYC, and of course, you can livestream us as well at wnyc.org.

All right. We're talking deli meats, we're talking Quarter Pounders. Boar's Head deli meats, McDonald's Quarter Pounders, various brands of frozen waffles, even some Trader Joe's prepared foods. These are just a few of the tainted foods making some consumers sick in the United States right now. Over the last few months, there have been a slew of recalls hitting America's favorite foods due to outbreaks of foodborne illnesses.

Earlier this week, almost 12 million pounds of turkey and chicken products were recalled due to suspected Listeria contamination. McDonald's Quarter Pounders have been the subject of headlines reporting 10 hospitalizations and one death as a result of E. Coli present in the sandwiches. Sliced onions, green onions sold by a variety of supermarket chains are being removed from shelves after testing found traces of Salmonella.

You'd be forgiven right now if you questioned any food in the American supply chain. Is it safe? Why are there so many foods being recalled right now? How can consumers protect themselves from the variety of food-borne illnesses circulating in the supermarkets? With us now to answer some of these questions is Ellen Ioanes, who is a world and weekend reporter at Vox. Hi, Ellen.

Ellen Ioanes: Hello. I'm so happy to be here.

Tiffany Hansen: We're glad you're with us. Let's just talk about your piece which we read, which is titled Why Food Recalls Are Everywhere Right Now. Let's just talk about it. Are food recalls everywhere right now more than they used to be, for example?

Ellen Ioanes: We are seeing a lot of recalls right now, and I think part of what makes it feel like they're everywhere, and there are a lot of them, is just the high profile of it. There will always have those kinds of things in the system, whether it's E. Coli or Salmonella. Those are unfortunately fairly common, and they show up in places like spinach, peanuts, romaine lettuce. You might remember some of those outbreaks, but just the size is pretty astounding and just the famous Boar's Head. We've all heard about it.

Tiffany Hansen: By size, you mean the sheer volume of product that has been recalled.

Ellen Ioanes: Yes. We're talking about billions of pounds of meat.

Tiffany Hansen: As opposed to-- I remember when spinach-- This was a while ago now. When we had those huge spinach recalls from Salinas, I think, in California. That seemed a big deal at the time. It seemed a little bit like a one-off, but that was also a lot.

Ellen Ioanes: It's also a lot.

Tiffany Hansen: It involved a lot of spinach. We're really talking about volume. Not necessarily-- You're not saying big in terms of people affected or are we saying that too?

Ellen Ioanes: There are lots-- We're looking at people in 19 states affected when it comes to the Boar's Head. 59 people sickened, 10 people who have died. That's pretty significant.

Tiffany Hansen: Let's go through some of the recalls. We mentioned the Board's Head. I want to talk about McDonald's, the Quarter Pounders. It's a disturbing trend. We've heard a lot about meat lately with the Boar's Head and that, but this is not an instance where this is the meat involved, right?

Ellen Ioanes: Yes. It looks like it's the onions and the Quarter Pounders-

Tiffany Hansen: Why was it just the Quarter Pounder? They use onions everywhere.

Ellen Ioanes: Yes, but these are raw onion slices. If you have something like E. Coli, and if this applies to Salmonella, this applies to E. Coli, this applies to Listeria. There's something called a kill step. That would be like cooking that's going to kill those really harmful bacteria, but if you have something that's raw, obviously you're not cooking it. Whether that's romaine lettuce or raw onions that are on the Quarter Pounder, which are not on the other McDonald's sandwiches, then that's where the risk is.

Tiffany Hansen: If somebody's about to step into a McDonald's right now and they're listening to their earbuds, should they be scared? What's happening with Quarter Pounders?

Ellen Ioanes: McDonald's in some states are not selling those Quarter Pounders. The investigation is ongoing into exactly what is causing the sickness, but it's pretty clear that it's the onions. Taylor Farms, which was the producer of these onions, and the distributor has recalled certain types of onions. McDonald's are not selling those slivered onions, so it's much safer. Like the CDC says, the risk to the public is pretty low. McDonald's, generally speaking, is-- One expert I talked to says, "If I'm in an airport and McDonald's is one of the options, that's where I'm going to go," because they are usually very, very good with their inspections, with their sanitation and it's usually a pretty trustworthy place. Risk is low.

Tiffany Hansen: Let's talk about these onions a little bit because does that mean that if I'm at the grocery store, I'm not supposed to be buying onions at this point? I guess I'm curious, is that on the list of things that we should try to avoid in the supermarket?

Ellen Ioanes: Taylor Farms, the distributor of these tainted onions, has contacted retailers where these certain types of onions have been placed out.

Tiffany Hansen: Packaged, sold.

Ellen Ioanes: Recalled and said, "You should not sell these." We, as consumers, do need to be paying attention to these recall warnings. I think what I would say about that is we should always be conscientious and be really careful, but we should also know that this distributor has said.

Tiffany Hansen: To that point, where do we find these? Is there some clearinghouse that I can go to boop boop boop on the computer and find a complete list of everything I'm not supposed to be buying and eating?

Ellen Ioanes: You can look at the CDC. They do have good up-to-date information about food recalls and they discuss these investigations and the steps of the investigations where they are at, where the federal government agencies are with the investigations, and give pretty up-to-date and clear-eyed warnings and concerns.

Tiffany Hansen: To that point then, let's talk about Boar's Head. It's a name that we've invoked a couple of times here. We have been reporting on it here about the recall of Boar's Head deli meats specifically. Where are we with that?

Ellen Ioanes: To start at the beginning, there's one facility in Jarratt, Virginia that is at the center of all of this. Over the past two years at least, inspection records had shown some very concerning unsanitary conditions at that particular plant, including mold, vermin, standing and dripping water, which are ways that Listeria can grow. It grows in a moist environment as well as built up meat and fat on the walls, on machines. [chuckles] You're making a face that conveys, I think, what we're all feeling right now.

Tiffany Hansen: None of that sounds like a place where I want my food coming from.

Ellen Ioanes: Exactly. We now have access to these public records to see over-- There were 69 infractions, points of concern over the past year that inspectors had flagged, but it's not clear exactly what the USDA did, which is responsible for inspections of meat and dairy and animal products. What they did to-- Did they find them? Did they ding them somehow?

These concerns were known and Listeria is something that if it's hanging on a meat cutter, for example, it's going to get into your deli meat, which of course, you don't necessarily cook before you eat it. There's a reason they're called cold cuts. That's how that Listeria spread. It was primarily originally in the liverwurst products, which Boar's Head has stopped manufacturing and it's closed the Jarratt, Virginia facility indefinitely.

Tiffany Hansen: Listeria, you said, thrives in these warm, moist environments. I'm curious, then, how did it get in the-- We have a text here from someone asking the same question, how did it get into the onions then?

Ellen Ioanes: E. Coli was on the onions.

Tiffany Hansen: Oh, E. Coli was on the onions.

Ellen Ioanes: Yes. Just to address that really quickly, E. Coli can also spread in a number of ways. There are E. Coli bacteria in all of our guts. It's part of your gut microbiome. There are a few harmful strands, though, and that's what makes people sick. It can contaminate water by animal or human feces, and then that water is used for irrigation. That's how it gets into, let's say, romaine lettuce or spinach or onions.

Tiffany Hansen: We're going to dig into the E. Coli versus Salmonella versus Listeria here in a second. I want to remind my listeners we're talking with Ellen Iones, who is the weekend and world reporter at Vox about food recalls. Do you have a question for Ellen about food recalls? Have you had some personal experience getting sick maybe because of some of these recalls? 212-433-9692. You can call us, you can text us at that number as well. We've been talking about Boar's Head, of course, but Trader Joe's right around the corner here, Ellen, as well has some recalls.

Listeners, what are your experiences with these, primarily meat? Although some vegetable recalls. Chime in, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call, you can also text us at that number. It's not just meat. It seems like it might be just meat, but it's really not just meat. Right?

Ellen Ioanes: It's definitely not just meat. I personally am a vegetarian, so researching all this, I was like, "Whew, thank goodness." Also, as we were talking about earlier, I have in my memory huge romaine lettuce recall, spinach, and now we're talking about onions. This is E. Coli, primarily, that gets-- but then Salmonella can also affect agricultural products, but it's really E. Coli that is the primary concern for agricultural products.

Tiffany Hansen: Let's talk about our friend, E. Coli, which lives in us and is also bad for us at certain levels. Just talk about the infection, how this happens. What tips us over the edge in terms of an E. Coli infection, and how long does it take for us to know we're infected and all of that business?

Ellen Ioanes: E. Coli, like we're saying, it lives in all of our guts. There are certain strains that are more dangerous. It's not necessarily the level, although your gut microbiome is balanced in different ways, but it's definitely the strains that are going to be of most concern. That's what happens when there's an outbreak. There has been a harmful strain of E. Coli that has made its way into the food supply. That can happen, like we were saying, either via agricultural irrigation.

When the water gets tainted by human or animal feces, then that irrigated water or that water that is used for irrigation can also infect the things that grow using that water, your onions, your romaine lettuce, your spinach. It can also infect meat. That can happen through meat processing. If there's a harmful strain of E. Coli in an animal's gut, it can make its way into the processing aspect.

Tiffany Hansen: Other parts of its body that someone is going to consume.

Ellen Ioanes: Yes, exactly.

Tiffany Hansen: Let's move on to Listeria. We mention it in conjunction with Boar's Head. You've talked a little bit about what was happening at that facility in Virginia. Two people, one in New York, one in New Jersey, have died from Listeria. I'm curious about these recalls. Are they voluntary recalls, first of all?

Ellen Ioanes: Yes. I think it would be pretty bad to not issue a recall if a government body says, "Listen, we think there's this deadly bacteria in your meat." These companies, they face a much higher risk, sickening lots of people than they do. Whether that's reputational. There's been so much reputational damage done to Boar's Head. They face a big risk not doing that recall.

Tiffany Hansen: Are people still getting sick from Boar's Head? Is there a long tail? I mean that in terms of from the time you consume it until the time you get sick. Could be 30 days.

Ellen Ioanes: It's usually pretty quick. You do notice symptoms within a few hours or within a couple of days, and those are going to be things like diarrhea, nausea, vomiting, but then it can really, especially for vulnerable populations. The other thing is these illnesses look different in different populations. Let's say babies, older people, people who are pregnant or immunocompromised are going to be at much higher risk of serious illness and death from these bacteria than a healthy young or middle-aged person.

That healthy young or middle-aged person might get diarrhea, they might vomit, but then an older person could develop complications, including meningitis from Listeria and death.

Tiffany Hansen: The symptoms for all of these are similar. By all of these, I mean Listeria, E. Coli, and Salmonella. You're just going to feel pretty bad.

Ellen Ioanes: Yes, exactly. It's your typical food poisoning response.

Tiffany Hansen: Most people don't go to the ER when they just have food poisoning. They suffer in silence at home.

Ellen Ioanes: Yes, I do.

Tiffany Hansen: Take the day off work. I'm wondering, do we really have a true number of how many infections we're talking about during an outbreak like this or is it really just reported numbers?

Ellen Ioanes: The way it works is the CDC has said, "Listen, we think the true number of people sickened from these outbreaks is much bigger than actually reported," because as we were just saying, you usually think, "I'm feeling pretty crappy, maybe I'll take a day or two off, and then I'll--" You recover, you bounce back. They do have a contact tracing system. Whether it's community health departments or reports of these illnesses, the federal agencies can and do track, say, like, "Before you got sick, what did you eat?" That's how we find these numbers. Of course that doesn't capture everything.

Tiffany Hansen: The one we haven't touched on yet is Salmonella. Now this is one that I had drilled into me from a very young age about chicken, specifically, about how you cook your chicken, how you handle your chicken. I want to actually bring a caller in here if I can, Ellen. Henry in Edgewater, New Jersey. Hi, Henry.

Henry: Hi. Listen, my question is just what you're bringing up. Which, if any, of these pathogens can be eradicated or neutralized by thorough cooking and/or thorough washing of food?

Ellen Ioanes: Cooking is going to be your best bet. All of these pathogens, all of these diseases can be eliminated by thorough cooking.

Tiffany Hansen: Thorough cooking means above a certain temperature.

Ellen Ioanes: Exactly. If you're looking at meat, it depends on the temperature, but there are recommendations above, let's say 160 degrees Fahrenheit. Make good use of your meat thermometers for sure. That's why we have those temperature recommendations, is so it kills all these pathogens.

Tiffany Hansen: Thanksgiving coming up. I got the Thanksgiving turkey that if you buy a turkey that's prepackaged, it always has on there, make sure you cook it above blah, blah, blah, degrees, and then everybody's sticking the meat thermometer in there. I think it's tempting for folks to want to find someone to blame for all of this. As we heard in Virginia, the processors. Is it a failure of the FDA or other regulatory agencies? Is it a failure of supermarkets that are buying tainted-- If someone were looking for somewhere to place blame, can we, and if we can, where should we put it?

Ellen Ioanes: I think it's a little bit of a case-by-case basis. I think clearly in the Boar's Head situation, we're going to see a lot more information come out from some pending lawsuits which will be really important to pay attention to. That seems like a pretty cut-and-dry case of like, okay, conditions were very bad, and relevant authorities, including Boar's Head, were not taking proper measures to manage this. I think the better way to look at it is our food system has become so complicated and so complex and there are so many different spaces and points at which contamination can make its way into the food supply.

That can feel really daunting and it's a complicated and murky response. You're right, we do want to blame somebody. There are lots of different entities that deserve scrutiny and should be called out when they fail us, but the reality is it's such a complex, globalized system that there are just so many places where--

Tiffany Hansen: Ellen hasn't given us someone to blame. [laughs]

Ellen Ioanes: I'm really sorry. That's pretty much all that's typically going to be a response. We can demand-- I think it's important to know how these systems work.

Tiffany Hansen: That's right. We're going to leave it there, Ellen. Ellen Ioanes, world and weekend reporter at Vox. Her recent piece on this topic about foodborne illnesses and all of these various Listeria, E. Coli, Salmonella. The title of the article is Why Food Recalls are Everywhere Right Now. Ellen, thanks so much.

Ellen Ioanes: Thanks for having me.

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.