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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. It's not just theoretical anymore. There are now immigration enforcement actions taking place during this first week of the Trump administration. Some of them in the last day are pursuant to a bill that Congress passed on Wednesday. It's the Laken Riley Act. You've probably heard of this. It's a Republican-led bill that directs authorities to deport immigrants who are accused of specific crimes if they're in the country without documentation. That's accused of crimes, not yet convicted.

The vote on that in The House was 263 to 156, with 46 Democrats voting in favor. The Democrats against the bill warned that it would unfairly target immigrants whose only crime had been entering the country without authorization. That's how The New York Times described it. Again, that distinction of 'Accused of crimes, not yet convicted'. Then yesterday, the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement's social media account on X reported it had already arrested 538 people and detained 373 undocumented immigrants so far nationwide. The arrests include several in sanctuary cities.

Here In New York, ICE agents arrested an alleged El Salvadoran MS-13 gang member, a Jamaican citizen who had been arrested for sexual exploitation of a minor, and a Honduran citizen with a drunk driving conviction. That's according to ABC7, channel seven. In Newark, and this is really breaking out as a big story nationally, ICE agents raided a fish market yesterday morning, initially detaining four workers, allegedly without a warrant. Newark Mayor Ras Baraka strongly condemned the raid. He said in a statement that the agents detained undocumented residents as well as a US citizen without producing a warrant.

He writes, "One of the detainees is a US Military veteran who suffered the indignity of having the legitimacy of his military documentation questioned." That quote from Mayor Baraka. We are learning that that citizen has since been reported released. Joining us now to discuss President Trump's executive order to ramp up the deportation of undocumented immigrants and what's actually happening already under that order and apparently under the Laken Riley Act and answer your questions about your rights at 212-433-WNYC, our two guests, Genia Blaser, director of a hotline at the Immigrant Defense Project, and Yasmine Farhang, director of advocacy at the Immigrant Defense Project. Genia and Yasmine, welcome to WNYC. Thank you for joining us.

Genia Blaser: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having us.

Yasmine Farhang: Thanks for having us, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if this affects you directly or potentially affects you directly and you want to ask a question about your rights, like if somebody comes to your door without a warrant, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433- 9692. We're bringing Genia's hotline onto the air, basically, for the next few minutes. 212-433-WNYC, especially if this potentially affects you or someone else you know, 212-433-9692. Gen, can I start on what happened in Newark? I know you only know it probably from press reports like I do, but can ICE raid a fish market or anywhere else without a warrant under the law?

Genia Blaser: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having us on. Let me just tell you a little bit about the Immigrant Defense Project and then answer your question. IDP, we've been around for 27 years, and we were founded to combat the targeting of immigrants for mass deportation and to fight for justice for all immigrants, in particular those targeted by the racist, criminal immigration legal systems. Relevant to this moment-- This is a terrifying moment. We've also been here before. IDP has spent over a decade tracking practices of ICE raids, tracking what happens on the ground to understand how ICE operates, to use this information to inform people of their rights.

I think it's really important in this moment in particular, for folks to know, no matter where they are in a workplace, at home, on the street, we all have rights, even in the face of fear, in this moment. That includes everyone in the United States, whether or not they are a citizen, regardless of immigration status. In this moment, what we've seen and what we've seen in the past is coming together as community to know your rights, to have this information builds power in the face of panic.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. With respect to people's rights, whichever of you wants to answer it. I have a handout here I could read from it, but from another immigrant advocacy and hotline group from 2017, at the beginning of the first Trump administration, and it advises people that if ICE knocks on your door, ask them if they have a judicial warrant, a warrant from a court, and if they don't, you don't have to let them in. Does that apply anymore?

Genia Blaser: That's right. That's a great question. On our website, IDP has a lot of materials about if ICE comes to your home, if they stop you on the street, in a car, at work. We get a lot of questions about ICE agents coming to homes. If someone knocks on your door, even if they say they're the police, even if you think they're the police, you don't have to answer the door. You don't have to open the door.

If they knock on the door and you're not sure who it is with the door closed, you can ask them for an ID and ask them to see a warrant. If they don't have any paper, they don't have a warrant that's signed by a judge, then Immigration, ICE, they cannot enter unless you give them permission. One thing I just want to name, that in all of our work tracking what happens on the ground, we've seen that ICE is very often not forthright about who they are when they come to homes. They use tricks, which is something called ruses, to mislead people, to let them inside, and to give them permission without knowing it to come into the home.

ICE often doesn't come to home with warrants signed by judges. They pretend to be local police, or they try to weasel their way inside or threaten people to let them inside. Even if they do enter a home, you still can invoke your rights. You can still ask them to leave. You want to always invoke your right to remain silent, and you can do that by remaining silent, or you can actually say in your best language, "I don't want to talk to you. I'm invoking my right to remain silent. I want to speak to a lawyer." You can just say that on a loop.

It's always important to invoke your rights, even if they come into your home or start to arrest you so that in that moment, you are not sharing information. You're not answering any questions that they're asking you.

Brian Lehrer: This Newark incident, if either of you are familiar enough to have a comment on it, it seems, at least from the way Mayor Baraka is portraying it, that they raided a workplace without a warrant and detained people on the basis of that.

Genia Blaser: I think that we are still learning information about what's happening in Newark. I do want to say that wherever it happens, whether ICE comes to a workplace or stops someone on the street, it is illegal for ICE to racially profile people. It's illegal for them to arrest people based on their race, their perceived race, perceived immigration status, language they're speaking. That includes stopping people in a workplace, on the street, asking them if they have papers to arrest them. That is illegal.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here's Elizabeth in South Orange. You're on WNYC. Hi, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: Hi. I'm calling because I am undocumented. I have DACA. Been here for 28 years and places where I thought I would be safe, such as being at church or maybe in a public area, I honestly don't feel safe anymore. Obviously, I am not someone they would automatically pick me up but if someone were to just ask-- I'm really just concerned about my safety and what my future holds, even though I don't have a criminal record. I've been trying to follow the rules as much as I can while I've been here.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Elizabeth. So far, Yasmine and Genia, DACA still applies, right? Trump may want to undo it. He has spoken sympathetically on the campaign trail of DACA recipients. We don't know exactly what he's going to do. At the moment, Elizabeth's immigration status is legal, right?

Yasmine Farhang: That's right. I think what you're sharing, Elizabeth, and thank you for sharing it, is that what you are speaking to and what we are seeing, which we know is intentional and planned, is an atmosphere of fear and chaos and uncertainty. Specific to what you're referring to about which spaces you feel safe in, we expected and unfortunately saw very quickly this week on January 20th, that this administration, the Trump administration, rescinded a Biden-era policy that existed under the Obama administration and a different iteration that protected certain areas at different times, has been called sensitive locations or protected areas memo, including, like you mentioned, churches, schools and hospitals from immigration enforcement.

We know why these policies were critical. These are locations like you're describing that communities have to be able to access and have to be able to feel safe in. These are day-to-day locations. They were called sensitive locations for a reason. These are places where people need to take care of themselves and their communities. However, what's really critical to know is while it is no surprise that the Trump administration wants to pull back immediately any restrictions whatsoever on using their ICE agents to target immigrant communities, this does not mean that they have no restrictions.

ICE, as Genia referred to before, they still need an actual judicial warrant signed by a federal judge to enter any places that are considered private. It's different certainly for public spaces or they have to give consent. Additionally, here in New York City and in some localities around the state and around the country, we also have local laws that prohibit our city agencies from using their resources for federal immigration enforcement and from allowing federal immigration authorities to enter city property without a judicial warrant.

I say that to say we expected this. It doesn't take away from the fact that it is horrifying. Yet, we also know that communities continue to have rights and we need to continue to educate communities about those rights and also really strengthen the local laws that we can.

Brian Lehrer: Since you mentioned the local laws, I have a clip of New York City Commissioner of Immigrant Affairs Manuel Castro asked this week about what the city's plan is to protect immigrants. Here's 20 seconds of Commissioner Castro.

Manuel Castro: First thing is to make sure that our city staff at all levels is trained on our sanctuary laws and our sanctuary city policies. Now, as city employees, we cannot cooperate with enforcement, but we also cannot interfere with enforcement.

Brian Lehrer: He added that there's only so much the city can do to protect immigrants against federal government enforcement. Can you, as lawyers, interpret what he actually said in the clip, "We cannot cooperate with enforcement under the sanctuary city law, but we also cannot interfere with enforcement."? Where's that line?

Yasmine Farhang: Sure. Absolutely. First, I think when we talk about sanctuary, it is really critical that we're clear that we're talking about many things. It's a policy. It's laws, but this is also a value about how we as New York City treat and respect immigrant communities that I think, as you know, and has been spoken about a lot on your show in the past, Brian. It goes back to an executive order from the '80s and has been legislated over the past dozen years. Commissioner Castro's statements that they're ready and equipped to stand by our sanctuary laws.

That's exactly what we want to be hearing from our local leaders. However, this simply will not assuage the concerns of New Yorkers when our mayor has been fear-mongering about sanctuary and scapegoating immigrants. In the past few weeks alone, let alone the past couple of years, we have heard him state that the Constitution is for Americans, meet with the "Borders Czar" who wants to see an end to birthright citizenship, and applaud Trump at his inauguration. This is a low for New York City. As a New Yorker, I'm ashamed to be seeing this at a moment when we need elected officials to be stepping up. This comment about interference-

Brian Lehrer: Those are political questions. People can take whatever side of that they take. In terms of what the sanctuary city law and Mayor Adams did say again this week, he will follow the law. What does the law actually protect people from and what does it actually not?

Yasmine Farhang: This note about interference, though, in Commissioner Castro's statement, this is a red herring. The Trump administration is trying to frame our laws in New York City and in other cities with immigrant protective policies as some kind of unlawful interference with their mass deportation agenda. That simply has no basis in law or fact. Honestly, it is concerning to hear any city official kind of repeat back that language that's coming from Trump's Department of Justice. Nothing in our laws or any of our local policies obstruct federal officers.

What our laws do is create affirmative obligations not to use our city resources and local institutions like our hospitals and our schools and our local agencies as agents for ICE. The city cannot be drafted into federal enforcement against its will. It's concerning to hear that language being repeated back. Instead, what we'd love to hear is our local leaders be strong in affirming that this has actually no basis.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take another call for our two lawyer guests from the Immigrant Defense Project. Oscar in Rockland County, you're on WNYC. Hi, Oscar.

Oscar: Hi, good morning. Actually, Oscar from Westchester. I'm a business owner-

Brian Lehrer: Sorry. I must be looking at the Tappan Zee Bridge backwards. Go ahead.

Oscar: [laughs] Business owner, a restaurant owner in Westchester. Very concerned about this for obvious humanitarian reasons and also for how it potentially affects our business and our workforce. These are people. We have to remember that not only are we-- Immediate concern with the people that I work with. I know they're legal. I know they have their paperwork in order, but it's so much more than them. It's their family. It's their friends who might be affected. That, in turn, might very well affect them. I want to know, as a business owner of a restaurant, what can I do not to interfere, but I sure as hell do not want to participate. What are my rights as a business owner should an agent show up at the door? I just want clarification on what I should be looking for on a warrant. If you could be more specific about who it should be signed by, whether it's a judge or it has to be a federal judge.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your specific questions, Oscar. Genia, Yasmine, who wants it?

Genia Blaser: I can start with it. Thanks for this question and thanks so much for really naming, Oscar, that we're talking about people, although there's a lot of dehumanizing and criminalizing rhetoric coming from the federal administration, from government officials, that we're talking about individuals who are part of our homes, our neighborhoods, our communities. In terms of your specific question as a business owner thinking about restaurants, I think first and foremost, it's really important that you make sure to share and know your rights information with your employees so that they have it and they know their own rights.

In terms of thinking about your own business, whether it's a restaurant, whether-- We've gotten a lot of questions from folks who work at nonprofits and other types of businesses. It's important to have protocols in place about what are public and private spaces and workplaces. When we talk about workplaces, the US Constitution applies, the Fourth Amendment applies. It's important for you and your workers to know that ICE cannot enter a private space in a restaurant, the kitchen area, the area that the public would not be allowed to enter, without a judicial warrant.

That is a warrant that is signed by a judge from a federal court, not a piece of paper that says 'Warrant' and is signed by an ICE officer or a deportation officer. If they don't have that paperwork, no one should give permission for them to enter those private spaces. You want to establish a protocol so that it's very clear who are the people who need to be contacted if immigration comes into your restaurant, asking to speak to someone who can give them permission, asking for records, asking for anything, and that people should not just hand over information and just know what those protocols are.

Brian Lehrer: Oscar, thank you for your call. Do either of you understand why there would even be workplace raids right now? I think that what Trump has tried to signal, and Tom Homan, too, the border czar, is that first, they're going to go after dangerous criminals, which I think means people who have been convicted of violent crimes. I think it's fair to say there's broad consensus across the political spectrum, not 100%, but broad consensus, that people who are here illegally and have committed serious crimes should be deported.

If you're raiding a workplace, that's not the same as somebody who's in prison or just being released from prison for a violent crime. Why are they raiding businesses? What's the goal here as you understand it?

Yasmine Farhang: I'm happy to start, Brian, and then I'll hand it to Genia. I would like to first address your question about those who have been charged with "serious crimes" or who have been ultimately convicted. We have to be very clear that immigrant New Yorkers, like all New Yorkers who face charges, have a right to due process—I know it's been repeated. It bears repeating—to defend themselves. We know that ICE is looking to rip people from their families and from their communities and that they will do this while people are going through local court process. They are happy to interrupt that process and funnel them into detention and deportation. We know this undermines the most basic principles of due process. We believe strongly-

Brian Lehrer: That certainly would be something that there is not 100% consensus on whether a person should be deported when they're accused of a crime as opposed to convicted.

Yasmine Farhang: Brian, what I would add is that if a community member has been ordered released by a judge, had their charges dropped, or has completed a sentence after a conviction, we believe that they should be able to go home and reunite with their loved ones. Turning people over to ICE for detention and deportation after they have become eligible is a very cruel form of double punishment. We believe this is not just unjust to everyone, but we know that it disproportionately impacts Black immigrants and immigrants of color, who we know are most likely to be targeted for arrest and deportation. We simply cannot talk about who was targeted in the intersection of the criminal and immigration legal systems without understanding this ultimately as a racial justice issue. To your question about workplace raids, I'm going to turn that over to Genia.

Brian Lehrer: Genia, do you understand the question?

Genia Blaser: Sorry, I'm having a hard time hearing Yasmine. Can you just repeat what she ended with and then I can jump in?

Brian Lehrer: Sure. She was handing it off to you for the specific question that I asked, which is, why are they staging workplace raids now if what they say they're going after first is people who've committed or at least been accused of violent crimes?

Genia Blaser: Got it. Okay. Thanks so much. I think to pick up probably where Yasmine left off, it's really important to name that ICE raids are political tactics, that ICE justifies and normalizes these tactics, which are violent, by using dehumanizing rhetoric, scapegoating immigrants, and intentionally trying to create a climate of fear. Again, this is a terrifying moment. We've been here before. IDP has been around through four different presidential administrations since ICE was created in 2003.

We've seen many different chapters of ICE and the tactics that they use to try to create this climate of fear, to try to scapegoat immigrants, and to try to normalize their mass deportation agenda. They try to dehumanize immigrants and neutralize and normalize what they're doing to justify it.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. Linda, in Nassau County, you're on WNYC. Hi, Linda.

Linda: Hi. How are you? I'm a teacher and-- Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Linda: I'm a teacher and I just wondered now that they are able to come into schools supposedly, what do I do? What questions should I be asking my school in terms of protocol? What are we doing? What if they come to my room and it's a high school?

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Can you advise that teacher? I'll bet there are a lot of people working in schools who have the same question. Whoever wants it--

Genia Blaser: I can start with it. Thanks for that question. I think it's very similar to how I answered the question from the caller who's a restaurant owner. I think it's really important for you to first of all make sure that you know your rights information to share it with your students, their parents, anyone who might need to know their rights. You want to make sure to speak to your school administrators in the district to know what the protocol is so that if there are ICE agents in schools, again, they shouldn't be able to enter schools without a judicial warrant that you know who are the people to go to to ask questions to. As a teacher, you have the right to remain silent.

You don't have to answer any questions. You can say, "I am not the right person to talk to. I don't want to answer any questions." You can just say that on loop and then make sure to contact the person that has been assigned or the office that's assigned in your district or in your school if there are agents there asking questions. You do not need to answer questions about your students or staff or anything. You want to make sure that you can point ICE or any other law enforcement, the police, to who those folks are in your school that will then take over. Yasmine might have something to add specific to New York City as well.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Yasmine Farhang: Yes. I understand that the caller is calling from Nassau County, but it bears again noting that of the critical laws we have at the city level and that frankly, we want to see in all counties around our state, but we actually want to see statewide is the city resources and city property laws that do ensure that federal immigration enforcement cannot access city property without a judicial warrant. The Department of Education has interpreted this to reassure parents. That has been an incredibly important reassurance when parents are concerned about picking up their children in schools who may be undocumented.

We need agencies to have crystal clear guidance. That guidance is really ultimately what's going to reassure parents in schools, workers at restaurants, and many of these different locations. That's why, frankly, we need to not have a hodgepodge of different policies and laws around our state. What we actually need is clarity at the state level that all local and state agencies are not going to be engaging in the practice of ICE enforcement. Thankfully, we have a bill pending in our state legislature, the New York for All Act, which was just reintroduced, which follows the lead of many other states around the country, many other states, Brian, who got it done, the first Trump administration.

Unfortunately, New York is far behind, which draws these limits statewide between local government and critical institutions like our schools, and immigration enforcement. Unfortunately, we have not yet gotten that done. I named that because the caller is from Nassau County. It should not be that your rights and what parents can feel assured by changes from when they're in Queens County to when they walk over in the border into Nassau. That's bad policy and it's bad for protecting our immigrant communities. New York is behind. We have a bill. It's Senate Bill 2235. It's the New York for All Act and it's something we really need the legislature to pass and the governor to sign as soon as possible to protect our state.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, and it goes to something else on that card, that handout that I mentioned that I saw in 2017 in the beginning of the first Trump administration, and to something that a listener just wrote in a text. The listener writes, "To Oscar's point, the business owner, regarding a warrant that ICE may show, can he ask to copy or scan the warrant to his phone?" The advice on this card says, "Record it. It is legal in New York State to record law enforcement. If possible, photograph or record everything you see or hear, except people at risk." Can you address that point and then we're out of time in 30 seconds?

Genia Blaser: Yes. That's a great question. I want to say that it is absolutely legal to document what happens if ICE comes if you have an encounter with ICE. You can take photos. You can videotape ICE as long as you don't interfere with their duties and you don't do it in secret. You might do it from a distance if that feels safer. You can also document what happened by writing it down after the fact. If things happen really quickly and you're not by your phone or it doesn't feel safe to pull out your phone to record.

You want to notice, not only was there a warrant, what is the paperwork, but where and when did the encounter happen, how many officers were there, how were they dressed, and what happened.

Brian Lehrer: Do you want to just give out your hotline number at the Immigrant Defense Project for people who want more individual advice?

Genia Blaser: Yes. Our number is (212) 725-6422. Our website is immigrantdefenseproject.org. We really specialize in giving advice to immigrants who've received tickets or have been arrested or convicted of crimes.

Brian Lehrer: Genia Blaser and Yasmine Farhang from the Immigrant Defense Project, thank you for joining us today.

Yasmine Farhang: Thank you, Brian.

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