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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. For our last 15 minutes or so today, we're going to follow up on something we talked about last week in a political context, which was Mark Zuckerberg, the head of Meta, of course, invoking the need for more masculine energy in corporate America apparently as a way to suck up to President Trump. I said when we did that segment, "What is masculine energy? Maybe we should do a follow-up segment on what that actually means."

He cited aggression, and we're going to replay the clip as we open the phones for men and women and non-binary people on what masculinity feels like to you if you're a man. What does masculinity feel like to you if you're a man? 212-433-WNYC. What does it actually mean? How much is it about aggression or any other traits? Also, if you're a woman, what does femininity mean to you in opposition to or in cooperation with masculinity?

I ask also people who are non-binary, even people who are trans, if you kind of were identified as one thing at birth and thought, "No," eventually, "I'm really something else because that's how I feel." What is that, especially if you're a trans man or somebody identified as a woman at birth who also feels kind of male and therefore identifies as non-binary they/them? You get it?

What is this masculinity if we're talking about the new bro culture that is rampant to some degree among young men in the United States who voted for Donald Trump? What do we mean by masculinity? What do we mean by femininity? What is it to you if you're male, female, or binary, or trans? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Here's this 25-second Zuckerberg clip again.

Mark Zuckerberg: The kind of masculine energy I think is good, and obviously, society has plenty of that, but I think corporate culture was really-- they're trying to get away from it. I do think that there's just something-- It's like-- I don't know. All these forms of energy are good, and I think having a culture that celebrates the aggression a bit more has its own merits.

Brian Lehrer: That's why there was such backlash to that, a culture that celebrates the aggression a bit more. Never mind that two-thirds of the CEOs in America, according to what I've read, are still male. Is there really not enough masculinity in corporate America? I looked at the Wikipedia entries on masculinity and femininity. I don't always quote Wikipedia because they're not always factually accurate, but these are more impressionistic, and I thought they were pretty thoughtful.

This says, "Standards of manliness or masculinity vary across different cultures, subcultures, ethnic groups and historical periods. Traits traditionally viewed as masculine in Western society include strength, courage, independence, leadership, dominance, and assertiveness." Then on femininity, it cited traits such as nurturance, sensitivity, sweetness, supportiveness, gentleness, warmth, passivity, cooperativeness, expressiveness, modesty, humility, empathy, affection, tenderness, being emotional, kind. So many there on the femininity one.

I don't know. Men can be nurturing, sensitive, sweet, supportive, kind, emotional, and women can be strong, assertive, courageous, all of that. What's real here? Or maybe nothing's real here. What does it feel like to you, no matter what sex or gender you are or identify with? We'll take your calls right after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now to a few thoughts about what masculinity or femininity or being in between means to you, coming out of that Zuckerberg clip and the discussion that it's begun in the country. Yoichi in Menlo Park, California, you're on WNYC. Hi, from New York, Yoichi.

Yoichi: Hi, thanks for having me. I don't like the word masculinity at all. I'm a cis man, I'm straight, but I don't think any traits, good or bad, should be assigned to the words femininity or masculinity. If you ask, masculinity has a kind of positive trait. I just want to shout out in this opportunity, today is Fred Korematsu Day in California. He actually lost at Supreme Court about Japanese internment. At that time, many Japanese citizens thought they had to follow the law, law-abiding citizens, and he didn't. He became apparently a felon for many, many, many years.

Brian Lehrer: Does this relate to the masculinity, femininity spectrum conversation?

Yoichi: Yes, it's a very heroic act. Some people may say this is actually like one instantiation of masculinity, and apparently, he's a man, but my point is I think many listeners feel the same way. Any those like heroism or aggressiveness or the contrary of those traits should be called either masculinity or femininity. I think we should avoid using those terms--

Brian Lehrer: Either ones. Yoichi, I'm going to leave it there to get some other people on. Thank you very much, and thank you for shouting out Fred Korematsu Day. Nick in Corning, New York, you're on WNYC. Hi, Nick.

Nick: Hey, Brian. I had a few quick points here. I think that masculinity and femininity both exist in a context of one another, and so when you try to peel one away, it kind of strays from its foundations. Then talking about masculinity and what it means to me, I think that I find pleasure and I identify in a very positive way with masculinity when I'm able to recognize my privilege, recognize my opportunity, and use it appropriately and use it to balance with others, femininity, use it in a responsible way.

It feels great to be able to exercise restraint and self-control but still understand that you have that opportunity and that strength and maybe the ability to be aggressive when needed but keep it in check. That's what it meant to me.

Brian Lehrer: Nick, thank you very much. Carly in Red Hook, you're on WNYC. Hi, Carly.

Carly: Hi. I think what Zuckerberg meant was white males, 30 to 50, and associated with arrogance and entitlement.

Brian Lehrer: That's your interpretation of what Zuckerberg was referring to. How would you interpret-- or if you ever use the word, what would it mean to you? Either of those words, masculinity or femininity?

Carly: Masculinity? I think I'll skip that part of the question.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, Carly. Thank you for calling in. Daron in White Plains, you're on WNYC. Hello, Daron.

Daron: Hello. Thank you for having me on. I was just calling because I think we need to embrace the fact that a lot of boys and men feel a need to identify as boys and men. If we reject the concept of masculinity or what it means to be a boy or a man, all we're going to have are the bad and the toxic forms of masculinity. I think there's a lot of different ways of defining that, but rejecting the concept that it is okay to have an identity as a man or a boy, I think that's misguided.

Brian Lehrer: A number of people are calling in, referencing the term toxic masculinity and I think trying to separate that from just saying masculinity so there can be a toxic masculinity that's real, that we should talk about, but not to equate that and all of masculinity. Is that part of the point you're trying to make?

Daron: Yes, and I think we need to have a dialogue. Richard Reeves is doing some of this work on what is the affirmative case for positive masculinity, for productive forms of masculinity and male identity.

Brian Lehrer: Daron, thank you very much. Steve in Whippany, New Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Stephen.

Stephen: Good morning, sir.

Brian Lehrer: [unintelligible 00:10:50].

Stephen: What I find disturbing about part of the conversation is associating or the need to associate aggressiveness with masculinity. Sadly, too much of masculinity these days has become a matter of determining what I'm not as opposed to what I really am. If I'm masculine, then I'm aggressive, I'm assertive, I'm powerful. Yes, none of those things individually, in and of themselves, are bad, but when they become a matter of the primary definition of masculinity, that becomes dangerous.

I was raised to believe that there's nothing wrong with being masculine or feminine, but also, a matter of the first duty of the strong is to protect the weak, not to take advantage of them, to be aggressive, to take something from someone. If you can't add to the conversation, then you really don't belong in the conversation these days.

Brian Lehrer: Stephen, thank you very much. Some sort of opposite texts that are coming in, a listener writes, "To both terms, I say, gag me with a spoon. Both terms are akin to race identifiers. They are social constructs," but another one writes, "Who thinks it's not okay for people to be boys or men?" Damani in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Damani.

Damani: Hi, Brian. Oh, my goodness. Longtime listener, called in a few times. I just wanted to reiterate, I just wanted to share that humans have both masculine and feminine energy. Every boy has some femininity in him. Every woman has some masculine energy in them. There was one caller who was talking about having an opportunity being men and being masculine. That sounded more like what people would call masculine privilege. I think that is--

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and I think he said-- at least one of the callers did say privilege, like part of it is recognizing your privilege and managing your privilege responsibly.

Damani: I think that is a very dangerous outlook. There is no privilege because you're a man. That's a society thing, and we need to get away from that. Men and women are equal in both ways. I think it's really important that we don't forget every man has some feminine energy and vice versa. Then I just will wrap it up by saying, the last caller said that it's a dangerous idea for men to feel or think that they have some power or privilege over anyone, even their Caucasian counterparts.

Brian Lehrer: Damani, thank you very much. We're going to sneak in one more here. Katarina in Westchester, you get our last 30 seconds on this. Hi.

Katarina: Oh, hi, Brian. I'm so excited. My first time on your show. Okay, I'll make it quick. I've worked in construction for decades, and it has been rough at times. Aggressiveness isn't accepted, neither in men or women, but I do think that I appreciate the male perspective because I feel that men can be a little-- they have blinders on sometimes. They get focused and driven in a way where women are more community and fair. Sometimes I think women are too fair. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: Katarina, that's going to be the last word. Thank you very much, and thanks to all of your calls on this. Obviously, we're not going to definitively end a conversation about what masculinity and femininity are and where they belong in our lives but good to talk about considering what's going on in the world, right? Thanks for your calls.

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