Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning everyone, and Merry Christmas Eve, right? Today we have an all-call-in show. No newsmakers, no elected officials, no experts, just you and me on the phones and our text message feed. We do this kind of show from time to time just for the fun of it, the human connection of it, and also to give the show's producer team a little break once in a while.

On this day before the official long weekend, several of our team members are off. Good place to burn a vacation day and have a really long weekend, right? It's you and me on the phones and on our text message feed. I want to start by taking Christmas head-on and opening the phones for Christians on the question, "What's the deepest meaning of Christmas and of your Christianity to you?" 212-433-WNYC. This is for any kinds of Christians, Christians of any denomination.

We are inviting you to call in and say a few words about what the religious, spiritual, or cultural meaning of the holiday is to you. Also, the political meaning of Christmas, of celebrating the birth of Jesus, has any political significance for you? 212-433-WNYC. Again, Christians of any denomination, we are inviting you to call in and answer in a few words, what is the religious, spiritual, cultural, or political meaning of Christmas and of your Christianity to you?

Call or text 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, and I say Christians of any denomination, or I could say Christians of any stripe, because some of you may not even identify with any official denomination, I realize. I say Christians of any stripe because, as with many religions, there's a lot of diversity here. I'm not Christian, full disclosure; I'm Jewish. I'm just the host of the show here, giving you an open mic if you are a Christian on this Christmas Eve morning, for you to tell your story and answer that question for you.

If you're Catholic, do you feel like there's a particularly Catholic set of feelings or beliefs that Jesus, that the birth of Jesus, that Christmas inspires, has the deepest meaning for you? If you're any kind of mainline Protestant, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Methodist, any of the others, or if you are any kind of evangelical Christian, the invitation is the same. Answer in a few words, what is the religious, spiritual, cultural, or political meaning of Christmas and of your Christianity to you?

Call or text 212-433-WNYC. Now, as your calls are starting to come in, I'm going to play two clips of Christians who are very different politically but who both seem to believe deeply in their Christianity. The first is Vice President J. D. Vance from his speech this past weekend at the Turning Point USA AmericaFest gathering. You may know this clip has made news.

It was when he said, "The only thing that has truly served as an anchor of the United States of America is that we have been and, by the grace of God, will always be a Christian nation." I just said the whole thing, but here's the audio. It's a little clipped at the beginning, but now that you heard the words, what I want you to listen for really is the crowd reaction after the words, it's J. D. Vance saying, "The only thing that--"

1. D. Vance: -has truly served as an anchor of the United States of America, is that we have been and, by the grace of God, we always will be a Christian nation.

[applause]

Brian Lehrer: Vice President Vance and crowd from AmericaFest. One of the reasons that clip made news is that line got the biggest applause of any in his speech. That's why we carried the applause after the words as long as we did those words, "the only thing," he said, "only thing that has truly served as an anchor of the United States of America is that we have been and, by the grace of God, we always will be a Christian nation."

That is literally Christian nationalism, right? Christian nation. You can see how that might relate to the politics of Muslim ban or other immigration policies designed to favor a particular religion based on maintaining the current majority. Vance, by the way, in denominational terms, in case you didn't know, is a Catholic. He converted from the evangelical Christianity of his upbringing in 2019.

As The New York Times describes it, "Becoming Catholic for Mr. Vance was a practical way to counter what he saw as elite values, especially secularism. He was drawn not just to the church's theological ideas, but also to its teachings on family and social order and its desire to instill virtue in modern society. That worldview has also infused his politics," the article says, "which seeks to advance a family-oriented, socially conservative future through economic populism and by standing with abortion opponents."

It also leads to that insistence, apparently, that "the only thing that has truly served as an anchor of the United States of America is that we have been and, by the grace of God, we always will be a Christian nation," that quote again. How about your Christianity? Christians of any denomination, we are inviting you to call in or text a few words in answer to the question, "What is the religious, spiritual, cultural, or political meaning to Christmas or of Christmas and of your Christianity to you?"

By the way, in case you're interested, on the US as a Christian nation, according to the annual Public Religion Research Institute numbers from last year, around 2/3 of Americans, 65%, identify as Christian, including 40% who identify as white Christian, they break it down this way, and 25% who identify as Christians of color. The second largest group these days, it says, is religiously unaffiliated Americans, people who list no religion in those surveys, reaching a new peak of 28% of the population last year.

The Institute finds the remaining 6% of Americans belong to a non-Christian religion, including Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Unitarian Universalism, or another religion. That's all of those together, making up just 6% of the population, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Unitarian Universalism, or anything else, with Christianity at 65%. We are and will be a Christian nation for some time to come, with or without the chest-thumping about it that you may have perceived to motivate that clip or to be part of that clip.

To that 65% of you, secularists, anyone else, sit this one out. This call-in is for you, Christians of any denomination. We are inviting you to call in and answer in a few words, what is the religious, spiritual, cultural, or political meaning of Christmas and of your Christianity to you? Here's the other clip, a contrasting clip, to be sure, though also concerned about virtue in modern society, as The Times described J. D. Vance, and you might hear this as a whole other orientation, though toward a very religious person's relationship, the same basic religion: Christianity.

This is the Reverend Dr. Jacqui Lewis, senior minister at Middle Church in the East Village on East 7th Street there from an appearance on this show in 2021. Now, Middle Church describes itself as "a multicultural, multi-ethnic, intergenerational movement of spirit and justice powered by fierce revolutionary love with room for all." It says, "We are an LGBTQ+ and queer-affirming church committed to healing souls and the world by dismantling racist, classist, sexist, ethnocentrist, ableist, and cis-heterosexist systems of oppression."

Very different from the way J. D. Vance would probably describe his Christianity, right? About their Christmas Eve service scheduled for tonight, the church's website says, "We welcome the Christ child with song, story, and fierce love. In a world aching for healing, we gather to midwife hope, justice, and liberation, birthing a future where all of us can thrive." Here's their senior minister, Reverend Dr. Lewis, here in 2021 when her book Fierce Love came out.

Reverend Dr. Jacqui Lewis: Something has happened where Christianity has become wrapped up in individualism, white supremacy, I would even say, patriarchy. It wasn't intended that way. That's not what Jesus taught, but it feels like over time, in too many spaces, it's become an individual pursuit of salvation, meaning I'm going to get to heaven, okay, and not hell, and that's what matters, as opposed to, and again, I think this is remembering an original intent that I'm not saved until everyone's saved.

I'm not well until everyone is well. I'm really working hard in this book to get not only Christians back there, but people of no faith or any faith to understand our survival and our thriving is inextricably connected that, Brian, when your older folks don't have health care, I should be at the policy table thinking about that.

Brian Lehrer: Reverend Dr. Jacqui Lewis. I played those two clips, Jacqui Lewis and J. D. Vance, just as a reminder of the range of political expression that the believers believe stem from the same source, right? Their Christianity, their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. How can the same religion produce such different politics and feelings about expressing people's diversity and everything else?

Now it's for you, anywhere on the J. D. Vance to Jacqui Lewis spectrum or any other way, Christians of any denomination, we are inviting you to call in and answer in a few words, what is the religious, spiritual, cultural, or political meaning of Christmas and of your Christianity to you? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Steve on Staten Island, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Steve: Yes, thank you for taking my call. Yes, Christmas in its essence is about a gift of love from God to the human race. When Jesus was born, the angels sang, or the angel declared that "I bring you good tidings which shall be to all people." God loves all humanity, and Christmas represents a love of God for the human race in a person, the person of His Son, whom we believe is the Son of God, equal with the Father. God has given all heaven in Christ, and it's really the promise of his second coming, which will culminate the whole purpose of God for humanity.

Brian Lehrer: Steve, thank you very much. Interesting that you mentioned the second coming, because I think Bill in Kitchener, Ontario, wanted to fundamentally refocus the question on that. Bill, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Bill: Yes, hello, Brian. I belong to a church called the New Apostolic Church. Well, its origins were in England, and it actually has a kind of dispensationalism which predates John Nelson Darby, who was more well-known. Edward Irving was someone that the church took inspiration from, who would have looked at this whole idea of the return of the Lord and making that the focal point of the church.

The Advent services are all about not just about the coming of the Christ Child, but the looking toward the future and having an anticipation for what's talked about in the Book of Revelation. One interesting thing is, the church actually moved on into Germany. The leadership are called apostles, who are pretty much similar to archbishops in the Catholic Church. It's a very hierarchical church.

Unfortunately, being that it was in Germany, its message was distorted, of course, during the Nazi times, but it's grown out of that. We're pretty much worldwide, and most of our members now are in sub-Saharan Africa, including South Africa. I find it's moved on from that whole idea of seeing the Europeans as being a special people to essentially a worldwide church with people of all the races.

Brian Lehrer: Well, sort of related to that, let me ask you a question. If you listen to those J. D. Vance and Jacqui Lewis clips, or just from your own understanding of the breadth of political expression that people say is motivated by their Christianity, how do you understand it for yourself as being able to come from the same place?

Bill: Yes, and that's the whole thing. I guess in response to what happened during the '30s and the '40s, the church is very apolitical and also this whole notion of "We sort of see ourselves as a chosen people," as these groups tend to see themselves, but, as I say, it's taken on a more universal kind of idea, which encompasses anybody who accepts the beliefs, regardless of their background.

Well, it's interesting about the LGBT thing. The point that they moved on to in the church is, rather than condemn it, we tolerate it, but we don't advocate. Advocacy would be a political thing, but the idea is tolerance. In terms of South Africa, where they actually had to follow, one of our articles of faith was following what the government says, so when the government was apartheid, we had apartheid churches, essentially, but now that it's not, the leadership has become-- I think most. Well, there are some white leaders there, but also colored and sub-Saharan Black leaders, who there's been a growth and a change over the years.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. I'm going to acknowledge that I'm sure some people are bristling at the word "tolerance." Like, "If that's the best you can do toward LGBTQ people, well, that's not really equal," I know some of you are thinking. I just wanted to channel that out loud, if that's the best that a particular denomination can do. How about Carrie in Croton-on-Hudson, who says she's a Quaker? Carrie, you're on WNYC. Hi there.

Carrie: Yes, good morning. Merry Christmas. Well, I was raised [unintelligible 00:16:51], and a lot of the traditions of Christmas are very special to me, and I love just being a part of that. We really decorate. We have the tree, and we even have a Boxing Day party. It's just a very special time. I was in the church choir, and Christmas was a lot of Christmas music. In the Southwest, we had the Luminarios that were these beautiful lit candles, but when I came to New York, I met my husband, and I became Quaker.

What I really like about Quakerism is, you really try to see that God in everyone, and it's based on a Christian tradition. George Fox was the founder, and he talked about Jesus and His teachings, but I think a big part of it is, you live your faith. This year, I've been really busy with activism, and I think that is a really important part of it. My upbringing just taught me to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I [inaudible 00:18:02] to try and be of service.

Brian Lehrer: Carrie, thank you. Thank you very much. Maureen in Ramsey, New Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Maureen. Merry Christmas.

Maureen: Hi, Brian. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. I'm a Roman Catholic. I believe. I'm a practicing Catholic. I believe that Jesus came down to earth to teach a message of love. Love others as you love yourself. Jesus didn't specify who the others were, but he primarily was reaching out to poor and disenfranchised people. I think that's the lesson I get from Jesus, and Jesus' birth and Jesus' humanity.

I get very upset at J. D. Vance insisting that we're a completely Christian nation. I don't think that's true. I think we have separation of church and state. I think the best thing would be if everybody would just treat everybody kindly.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Another listener wrote a text, Maureen, that says, "I'm Catholic and can say J. D. Vance has a narrow and mean view of Catholicism." In this listener's opinion, "He omits almost all of Catholic social teaching. Plus, he's not a historian. Our founders specify the United States is not founded on any religion." For you, as a Catholic, how do you understand this wide range of places that people can wind up politically and culturally in that respect, from the same source?

Maureen: I'm going to be honest with you, Brian. I really, really struggle with it. I sometimes go to mass on Sunday and see somebody with a MAGA hat on their dashboard, and I can't swear it because it's so opposite to everything Jesus taught. I really haven't come to terms with it. I haven't figured it out, but I believe I still believe in my church because I think we have a strong history of social justice that I like to count upon and be respectful of.

Brian Lehrer: Maureen, thank you very much. We are getting a lot of calls, and if you're just joining us, we're inviting listeners to call in and answer in a few words on this Christmas Eve morning, if you are Christian, what is the religious, spiritual, cultural, or political meaning of Christmas and of your Christianity to you? Call or text 212-433-WNYC. Let's see.

We heard from an apostolic. I think I'm saying that wrong. We heard from a Roman Catholic right there, from somebody else in another denomination that I already forgot. Oh, of course, we had our Quaker listener who called in. We're going to keep ticking through some of the different denominations as they get represented here. Suzanne in Hamilton, New Jersey, who says she's a Lutheran. Right, Suzanne? Do I have that right?

Suzanne: That's right. I'm a Lutheran. The one thing that strikes me is Jesus, Mary, and Joseph had to flee from Bethlehem. They were refugees. They were immigrants. They were seeking asylum. It's like, "What right do we have to condemn refugees, immigrants, and people seeking asylum?" That's all I wanted to say.

Brian Lehrer: Suzanne, thank you very much. Here's Rufus in Manhattan, an Anglican, he tells our screener. Hi, Rufus, you're on WNYC. Merry Christmas.

Rufus: Hello there, Brian. Yes, I grew up a good Anglican boy, and I came to the States 30 years ago and joined the Episcopalian Church, but what I wanted to describe was years ago in the '80s, I was touring with a singing group in Israel, and two Jewish friends of mine, as we were sitting looking at the temple, said, "Oh, you're a Christian. Why are you a Christian?"

I had never been asked that question before, and somehow I just sort of came out with it. I said, "Well, any God that is kind of crazy enough to make Himself vulnerable enough to arrive as a baby and expose Himself to His own creation and see what they would do with this baby has my money because that is somebody who really, really thinks about me as a vulnerable human being."

I feel that the message of Christmas is that we see the Christ baby in everyone around us is the idea. That way, there is no way of being anything other than loving and peaceful towards each other. That is the message that definitely gets preached in my church, in St. Mark's in-the-Bowery in the city, and there are plenty of children in that church, too, which I really love.

That's really the message that I feel is that this is a vulnerable God who has put themselves in the hands of their powerful creation, and it's the absolute opposite of Vance's message of nationalism and power.

Brian Lehrer: Why do you think, given your beautiful description of what Christianity evokes and inspires in you, that there is so much, without even personalizing it to J. D. Vance necessarily, why there is so much belligerence toward others on the part of people who identify religiously?

Rufus: I think because they don't actually open their hearts to listen to what the real message is. As human beings, we just love our structures and "our securities" in inverted commas, and the security is all about rules and about structures. To have a God blast open those structures by saying, "Well, actually, now I'm going to change this thought to being loving and being gentle, and kind is the power of the world that really has power."

I think that it's so alien to most of us, even in our ordinary daily lives. I'm as guilty as anyone of sort of power play and so on when I really don't feel that that's who I am as a person. I think it's very difficult then to extricate it from whatever vision of the religion is that you've had preached to you. There have been plenty of what I call false prophets down the years, preaching a form of this nationalist religion, whether it be in Christianity or in other religions.

It's always led to war and strife and misery. I'm assuming that we all want joy and love and kindness and harmony in our lives. It seems that we are often so hell-bent on the very opposite because we're not willing to give up a little tiny piece of structured power.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your call, Rufus. We really appreciate it. All right, so he was an Anglican, and we're going to go next to Desmond in Brooklyn, who is a Baptist. Desmond, hey, Desmond, you're on WNYC. Merry Christmas.

Desmond: Good morning, and happy holidays. I thank you for taking my call. I am first primarily an Anglican or an Episcopalian, and then I became a Baptist, but the people who have been speaking have encapsulated so many proper thoughts. Religion, when used by male chauvinism, and in this case, white male chauvinism, for more than one millennia, has been used as a tool for crowd control, people control, so that people can enrich themselves and have power.

Okay, the original person that spoke, the pastor, the lady, she spoke about white male patriarchy. If you look at what's happening in this world right now, there's one glaring example. Everybody's upset. Remember that Christ was a Jew. It was a Jewish carpenter, so this may seem askew. You have the Jews who were massacred on Bondi Beach, and then you have the people who did it on the island continent of Australia.

Where was there any Aboriginal people in any of that? If that isn't a glaring example of invasive species taking over a place for their enrichment, I don't know what is. In the Bible, the red words of Christ tell what every other major religion does. It talks about humanity, service, and love, yet those are always things that are used to manipulate the masses. It's all done for, coming back to the same thing, power and wealth.

The only thing that stops other people from being able to control themselves is that they do not kill as well as the people who are in control. I'm not going to say who those people are. Everybody knows who they are. The Christmas Advent season is the promise of love and eternal life. If you look at every religion, anywhere, they talk about an origin story, and they talk about a prominent being, and that is the original moving force.

When you talk to physicists, astrophysicists, they talk about the size of the world was the size of a marble, and then came the Big Bang or the explosion, and all of the evolution that takes place. I think that's like 4 billion years ago. Here we are now, and we're still learning about all the forces. Only thing that we know is that the universe is constantly expanding, but somewhere in there--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, finish it up. Go ahead, you can finish the thought.

Desmond: Somewhere in there, the one thing that's supposed to humanize us are those words about love and taking care of the gifts that we have been given. That's being destroyed right now through the same things: greed and power.

Brian Lehrer: Desmond, thank you very much for your call. Here's a text. Cultural Northern Baptist, the person describes himself as so, I guess, different from Southern Baptist, which has its own political and cultural connotations, right? This person writes, "Cultural Northern Baptist. Different interpretations of scripture are possible." I guess this is an answer to my question, "How can people of such different politics and social orientations say those positions come from the same source, their Christianity?"

This person writes, "Cultural Northern Baptist. Different interpretations of scripture are possible because the text is mysterious. When Jesus eats dinner with prostitutes and tax collectors, did He hector them the whole time to repent or just sit and listen to them with love? No one can say for certain," at least in the opinion of that listener. Oh, we could do this all day.

Let's take at least one more before we change it up and go to a related question number two. Daphne in Queens, a member of the Church of Christ. Daphne, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Daphne: Hi, Brian. Hi, listeners. I hope all is well. God bless you, Merry Christmas.

[background noise]

Brian Lehrer: And to you. You have some noise there on your phone. Let's see if we can straighten it out. Hold it real steady. Are you there?

Daphne: Yes, yes. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, give it a shot.

Daphne: Hi. Okay, just as a correction, I was blessed to be able to have different denominational experiences in my growth and crush Christ from childhood. Thank you, Jesus. My mother attended the Church of Christ, which is one denomination. My father attended the Church of God in Christ. There is a difference. I more identify with the Church of God in Christ if we have to choose a denomination.

To cut right to the point, thank you, Jesus, why Christmas is so important to me, I've been young, middle-aged, thank you, Jesus, that I was able to celebrate 38 years of living on November 23rd, but I find Christ to be the fulfillment of Isaiah 9:5. It says, for a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder. The Wondrous Advisor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father calls His name the Prince of Peace.

I must be representative as a real believer in Christ. I do apologize that with the previous caller, you have been exposed to a war-like, racist, passive-aggressive sort of Christ message.

Brian Lehrer: With the clip that we played, you mean?

Daphne: I'm sorry?

Brian Lehrer: You mean with the clip that we played earlier?

Daphne: Yes. It's like that's how you know that that's not Christ. If it's anything outside of peace, this is referencing Isaiah 9:5 that I just read [crosstalk] and loving.

Brian Lehrer: Isaiah 9:5, going to get the last word via Daphne in Queens in this segment, the first of a number that we're going to do on this all-call-in show today. Daphne and everybody who called in to describe your relationship to Christmas and to your Christianity on this Christmas Eve morning, thank you for those calls.

[MUSIC]

Brian Lehrer: Now we just heard some very expansive takes on what it means to be a Christian and to believe in Jesus and love your fellow human. Now I want to broaden it even more and open up the phones on this question. In our very polarized world, can you say something that defines or describes everyone's common humanity? Have you ever had an interaction around your common humanity with someone very politically or otherwise different from you? 212-433-WNYC.

Call or text on this question, 212-433-9692. Again, in our very polarized world, can you say something that defines or describes everyone's common humanity? Have you ever had an interaction around your common humanity with someone very politically or otherwise different from you? Tell us a short story or just put some elements of common humanity on the table. It can be that simple. 212-433-9692, call or text.

In the context of Christmas, sometimes people like to say the phrase, and we had a text like this that I didn't get to in Segment 1, "Peace on earth, goodwill toward men, or goodwill toward all." It derives from the Bible, Luke 2:14, I believe, not that I'm any expert, and the original from Luke was in a Christian religious context, but it's been widely applied as a universal. "Peace on earth, goodwill toward men, or goodwill toward all," just to ungender it for modern use, but it implies a sense of common humanity, right?

It doesn't say goodwill toward your fellow Democrats or Republicans or socialists or Fox-News watchers or Episcopalians or Anglicans, whatever. It says goodwill toward everyone. In our very polarized world, maybe part of the path out of that, part of the path away from more political violence, even civil war, without giving up your own beliefs, without being Pollyanna-ish about it, hopefully, or being silent in the face of what you consider to be evil, might be just to say something out loud about our common humanity.

Can you say something that defines or describes everyone's common humanity? Have you ever had an interaction around your common humanity with someone very politically different from you or otherwise different from you? Tell us a little of that story. 212-433-9692. This is an experiment. Call it an experiment in depolarization, common humanity call-in for this medium anyway, talk radio, that often lends itself to polarization, right? Because polarization sells.

Let's see how it goes. Call or text 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692 for this little experiment. As your calls hopefully start to come in, here are a few takes I collected on common humanity. A Stanford University School of Medicine page says, "Common humanity emphasizes our shared struggles, imperfections, and interconnectedness. It fosters belonging and compassion over loneliness and isolation. This interconnectedness is a gift," it says.

It goes on, "In today's tech-driven world, it's easy to lose sight of our common humanity. Social media algorithms push us into echo chambers, fostering isolation rather than connection. What will another decade of endless scrolling do to society? I don't want to find out," says that person on the Stanford School of Medicine page. An article in Psychology Today about self-care from earlier this year is called "Common humanity: A not-so-pop psychology term for a beautifully useful concept."

That says, "Dr. Kristen Neff, a psychologist who has extensively researched self-compassion, defines it as having three main parts: mindfulness (being in the present), self-kindness, and common humanity." Then it goes on, "Common humanity focuses beyond our relationship with ourselves to our relationships with others and the world." I know that's obvious, but it says, "It's about realizing how much we share as fellow humans. If we broaden our compassion for others, we can extend that compassion to include ourselves."

That's common humanity with others in the context of self-care in that Psychology Today article. Here's another one, a story from the book High Conflict: Why We Get Trapped and How We Get Out. Maybe you know that book by Amanda Ripley. It's about two of the founders of our country: John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. In a chapter called the Power of the Binary, I'll read some sentences from this.

It says, "Both men loathed the idea of political parties. Adams called them the greatest political evil imaginable. Jefferson thought party loyalty represented 'the last degradation of a free and moral agent.'" "The last degradation of a free and moral agent," from Thomas Jefferson. It says, "They understood the danger of a collapsing civilization into two sides. Neither of them imagined that the country would be split apart by their own supporters, but that was back when they were speaking to one another," it says.

"As time went on, Jefferson and Adams began to hold different views about the future of the new nation. Jefferson was suspicious of central government, while Adams felt a strong government was necessary to get things done. Both opinions had merit, and they remained friends, able to disagree with warmth. Then in 1796, the Democratic Republican Party," did you know that they shared a name at that point? That name was of the same party.

"The Democratic Republican Party backed Jefferson for president, while the Federalists got behind Adams. It was the first contested presidential election in American history. There were two parties dividing Americans, just as Jefferson and Adams had feared. The campaign got ugly, and followers of both men used their writings against them. Adams won in the end, but Jefferson had come uncomfortably close to beating him, falling just three electoral votes short of a victory.

"To Adams, this affront from his protege, no less, felt like a humiliation, and it lingered in his heart and his head." The last paragraph from this section, "By its very nature, politics sorts us into binary categories: Democrats versus Republicans, incumbents versus upstarts, old guard versus new. Sorting almost guarantees conflict, as Jefferson and Adams had warned it would. There are all of a sudden two sides, and everyone must choose. It's not for nothing that the word 'category' comes from the Greek word for accusation."

I didn't know that. Just learned that in the book High Conflict: How We Get Trapped and How We Get Out, which I've been reading, by Amanda Ripley. Interesting about the power of the binary, which is so prevalent in public life today. One way to get past the power of the binary and, again, not to give up what you feel strongly about or fighting for what's right or what you see as your legitimate interests, maybe more time spent on recognizing everyone's common humanity is one way toward your goal, rather than a weakness or backing down from it.

In our very polarized world, can you say something that defines or describes everyone's common humanity? Have you ever had an interaction around your common human humanity with someone very politically different or otherwise different from you? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. This is an experiment. We'll see how it goes right after this.

[MUSIC - Marden Hill: Hijack]

Brian Lehrer: As we head into this little experiment with your answers to the question, "In our very polarized world, can you say something that defines or describes everyone's common humanity, and have you ever had an interaction around your common humanity with someone very politically or otherwise different from you?" Laurie in Port Washington, you're on WNYC. Hi, Laurie. Thanks for calling in.

Laurie: Hi, Brian. Apropos of your question, I had this really funny experience. I'm like 80 years old. I'm little. I have white hair, and I'm sitting in Rite Aid waiting for my COVID shot, and this very burly man sits next to me, and he starts needling me. He's calling me a Democrat. I don't know. He's calling me all these names for no-- I didn't even know him. I turned to him. I said, "This guy needs a little kindness, and this guy needs a little love and recognition that he's a human being."

I turned to him, and I said, "Have you ever been to the Grand Canyon?" His eyes opened really wide, and he said, "Yes, I did as a kid." I said, "I did too," and then the whole conversation switched to the majestic grandeur and the awe of nature and our common humanity, and then he gave me a big hug.

Brian Lehrer: Aw.

Laurie: I don't know, a little bit of kindness and love can really dispel, often, nastiness that's coming your way. That's my story.

Brian Lehrer: It's funny. If it was more than just a chance encounter between strangers in a Rite Aid, and funny that you name Rite Aid, because our next segment later in the show is going to be your eulogies for businesses that you've patronized that have gone away, and all the Rite Aids have closed and welcomings for new ones that are opening in your neighborhood.

That'll be later, but if you had an actual ongoing political or professional or other relationship with a difference to work out, you, it seems to me, would've taken a big, Grand-Canyon-sized step toward finding a solution that maybe worked for both of you by instead of pushing back on him like, "You're a jerk, I'm going to give you some of your jerkiness back to you," you gave him love, and that opened yourself to him. Laurie, that is a perfect way to start off this call, and thank you for sharing that story. Johnny in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Johnny.

Johnny: Hi, how are you doing? It's a pleasure to be on here.

Brian Lehrer: Pleasure to have you. Tell us your story.

Johnny: Oh, well, I'm a barber, and I work for underprivileged people who have gone through a lot in their life. I get some of the really most interesting people who've experienced what we would call the harder life, and not usually by choice. Stories of how they've overcome and how they've gotten to a place where they can now look back and be able to fight a little bit more for themselves helps me to realize that we as a people are all going through things.

What we do, what we're given in this life, is what brings us together when we look at the positive, and we're able to take the broken eggs of life and make an omelet that we all could eat and be a part of.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Do you find that you encounter difference either between yourself and some of the people who've been through these rough times in life whose hair you cut, or is it just kind of realizing with the population that you served, who it sounds like would be pretty marginalized in various ways, that it gives you a sense of everybody's common humanity, including those who may not be seen in the mainstream, if I'm putting that accurately?

Johnny: Yes, that is an interesting point. A lot of these people don't usually come from the lowest place in life. Sometimes they fall into something that they were not destined to, supposedly, and they end up in this place. It doesn't matter where you are in life. Again, it's the choices that you make. You can either be a victim if you want, or you could be a person who takes that victimhood and changes it into a reason to live.

People who assist them to live to find purpose, this is what the common thing that brings us together as a society, a humanity that respects and loves one another.

Brian Lehrer: Nice.

Johnny: Like the Ubuntu, where they say that the Ubuntu loves so, so deeply and so completely that you have no other choice but to love them back.

Brian Lehrer: Beautifully said, Johnny. Thank you very much. From a barber on common humanity, we go to a martial arts instructor, I think. Joshua in Astoria, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Joshua: Hey, Brian, how's it going? How are you doing today?

Brian Lehrer: Good. What'd you got for us? Merry Christmas to you. Good.

Joshua: Good. I'm an instructor at an academy that's in Brooklyn. I found that it's really interesting because on the mat, it becomes a great equalizer. We have people from all backgrounds, all different incomes, all different jobs, all different religions. We have men, we have women. Before that hour and a half on the mat, everybody is suddenly equal. Nobody's better than anybody else. If you think you're better, you get humbled very, very quickly, and you learn that everyone really is just the same in that environment.

Brian Lehrer: Joshua, thank you very much. Karen in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Karen.

Karen: Hey, Brian. My story was, I don't believe in angels, but in this case, an angel entered my life. My dog of 17 years was on the verge of dying, and I had to pick him up and take him to the vet. It was a very, very cold winter day. He was heavy. I picked him up. I was outside on Second Avenue going the wrong direction downtown, and my vet was in the 30s uptown.

I couldn't get a cab. Nobody was stopping for me. I was hysterically crying. My poor dog was literally close to death. All of a sudden, this van drives up, this woman, who doesn't even speak any English, she was saying, "Perro, perro," which means dog, and "help. Do you need help?" She opened the door. She let me in with my poor dog in my arms, and she drove me all the way around in bumper-to-bumper traffic, around.

She drove me with my dog to my vet and dropped me off without a thought, without a dime. She was my angel for the day. I would not have gotten a ride. I would've been standing there. I was hysterical, and she picked me up.

Brian Lehrer: Not just a human kindness story, but a common humanity story?

Karen: Yes. Just the love of animals and the recognition that here was somebody in great emotional distress with the thing she loved the most. It was just a beautiful, beautiful thing. She was my angel.

Brian Lehrer: That's a good way to end the call. "She was my angel." Thank you, Karen. Your calls on common humanity and how it's expressed itself in your life, one way or the other, on this Christmas Eve morning. Harold in Midtown, you're on WNYC. Hi, Harold.

Harold: Hi, Brian. Happy holidays. Our synagogue, CBST, and the Muslim Brotherhood at Washington Square for NYU exchange volunteers to usher at each other's services. This has gone on for several years now. It really allows us to interact with a faith for each of us that has been so divided if we just listen to the news. These interactions, doing the same work in each other's places of worship is really a fantastic experience.

I volunteered myself. Our synagogue is the LGBTQ Synagogue of New York, one of the largest congregations in New York. There's also the aspect of tolerance of each other from our viewpoints of what we practice. It is a wonderful experience. You can read in whatever else there is. It's really tremendous.

Brian Lehrer: Harold, thank you very much for sharing that experience. Sounds like we need more of that. Here's a text. Listener writes, "I was having an online disagreement with a friend of a friend about abortion. Then I realized we went to the same church, and I didn't know what she looked like, so I didn't know who I was disagreeing with. It was humbling. I finally realized she was the nice person who always sat behind me. I reached out, and she is now one of my favorite people at the church. We still disagree on that particular point, but I truly think I understand her." One more. Louise in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Louise.

Louise: Hi, Brian. Thank you. I like that last text that you just read. I have a similar experience because in my church, I'm a Christian, I happen to attend a Pentecostal church, but the political views are often different than mine. I find that, if I wanted to, I could get into disagreements with people, and I choose not to because I truly love the people in my church.

We have very common humanity in our love for the Lord, for Jesus, and we do follow His teachings of loving one another despite our differences. One of the things that I thought of while I was waiting was that for 22 years, I taught English as a second language. I, of course, engaged with people from all over the world. Particularly, my Muslim students were the most respectful and very, very appreciative students.

They never hesitated to express their love for me. It taught me that we have common desires in our lives, regardless of what we come from, what our cultures are. We love our children. We want freedom. We want education for our children. There is so much more that we have in common than what divides us. I have chosen to love people who think politically differently than I do. I'm just not going to let politics and powerful people take that away from me. I'm not going to be deprived of the people I love because of politics. That's my choice. Yes, go ahead.

Brian Lehrer: Do you know that that love, the way you describe it, as it expresses with some people who you do love, who you politically disagree with, can work toward any resolution of those disagreements, or can it only be, we disagree, but we respect each other's common humanity?

Louise: Well, I'll tell you honestly, I think I've reached a point where I realized that I can't change people's minds, and they can't change my mind. Do I choose to love them despite that, or do we set up these walls and barriers? I, for one, am not going to do that. There have been some times in my church, in my family, where I've bristled. I really don't agree, and I don't think certain things should be said from the pulpit.

I really don't, but that's the choice of an outspoken pastor, and I have to tolerate that, but I'm not going to be in his face about it. I can choose. I'm wise enough and savvy enough. I understand our Constitution, and I know what the rights are of people in this country.

Brian Lehrer: Louise, thank you very much. Thank you, really. Well, that little experiment of a call in on our common humanity and some stories about interacting with people who may be very different from you, but acknowledging your common humanity, it doesn't solve anything, but maybe that kind of thing, if there was more of it, would be a start to solving more things. Thank you all very much for your calls on your common humanity.

 

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