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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. A little background on this Massapequa case. In 2023, the New York State Board of Regents issued guidance banning the use of Native American mascots, team names, and logos in public schools or risk losing state funding. The ban led to backlash and a long legal battle in the public school district of Massapequa. Those of you who don't know Massapequa, it's on the South Shore of Long Island where the name the Chiefs, evoking an 18th-century depiction of a Native American, is used across the district, including at Massapequa High School and even at the fire department, I have read.

Well, now, President Donald Trump has weighed in. In a post on his Truth Social social media platform, the President asked US Secretary of Education Lynda McMahon to intervene in defense of the Massapequa School District. On Friday, McMahon heeded the call. She wrote in a statement, "The US Department of Education will not stand by as the state of New York attempts to rewrite history and deny the town of Massapequa the right to celebrate its heritage in schools."

That's from the Education Department. I've also read now that the Justice Department is looking into whether it's legal for New York State to deny those state funds if they don't change the name. Is the state being discriminatory as it's accusing the school district of being discriminatory? Seems to be the question the Justice Department wants to ask. Joining us now with the latest is Darwin Yanes, education reporter at Newsday, which, of course, is Long Island's newspaper. Darwin, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Darwin Yanes: Thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Last month, to start there, a federal judge ruled against Massapequa and three other school districts, Connetquot, Wyandanch, and Wantagh, that it all challenged the mascot ban. Can you walk us through a bit of that protracted legal battle and where the judge came down against the schools?

Darwin Yanes: Sure. Initially, in 2023, once this regulation was issued, a lot of schools pushed back as time went on. As the June 30th deadline of this year approach, schools essentially dropped their objection and decided to follow the regulations, all but those four school districts that you mentioned. Two of those school districts, Wantagh and Wyandanch, they're looking to keep their Warriors nickname, while Massapequa and Connetquot are essentially saying that this violates their constitutional rights.

Last month, a federal judge found that there essentially wasn't enough backing their claims and that they didn't have the standing to essentially fight this state regulation. She sided with the state. For a little while, it was unclear if the school districts would appeal or what measures they would take. On Friday, we found out that the Wantagh school district is planning to make an appeal of that decision.

Brian Lehrer: President Trump, as I mentioned in the intro, is coming down on public schools on a state-by-state basis. This is obviously the broad context for what's going on in these Long Island districts on what he says are illegal DEI initiatives in schools, diversity, equity, and inclusion programs. He has moved to pull all federal funding for Maine's public schools because the state allows transgender girls to compete on girls' sports teams in some cases.

For listeners scratching their heads, how did Massapequa, one single-school district on Long Island, get in front of the President? I'm going to read this headline from just the other day from the AP, "Trump administration to investigate New York's funding threat over Long Island tribal school mascot," and that's where we are now.

Darwin Yanes: The Massapequa school district publicly came out and asked the President whether it was in media or social media posts and they asked for his help to intervene in this particular issue. When I spoke to some lawmakers that are working towards helping Massapequa keep their names, they said that they also sent a letter to the President asking for help or for them to intervene or even use some type of action to step in. A lot of community members have asked the President to jump in and to intervene. I think it's also important to note that the President has a strong base in those South Shore communities.

Brian Lehrer: All right, South Shore communities, lines are open for you on any side of this. 212-433-WNYC, or if others want to weigh in, 212-433-9692 on the Native American mascots issue. 212-433-WNYC, call or text, 212-433-9692 with Darwin Yanes, education reporter at Newsday. Little correction to something I said before. I guess it's not the Justice Department.

It is just the Education Department that announced an investigation on Friday, but it's a tit for tat kind of thing, right? Is this the way it looks to you, Darwin? The state is threatening to withhold state funding from the school districts if they don't change the mascots' names. Now, the federal government is threatening to withhold federal funding for the state if they try to pressure the districts.

Darwin Yanes: Yes, yes. One of the things I heard from a Board of Regents member is that the President has said that he wants to give the power of education back to the states. He questioned why is the President jumping into this issue and essentially superseding him. The state's Department of Education, I think it'll be interesting to see what action they take after this investigation was announced on Friday.

Brian Lehrer: Right. I guess it depends how local you want to be because the Trump position, even though he's using federal power, is to say education is supposed to be up to localities, so that's a reason for the state not to get involved. They'll argue, "Well, if you're calling us authoritarian for pressuring school districts or universities for that matter to do things we want them to do or withhold federal funding, well, look what the Democrats do."

Darwin Yanes: Sure, sure. I think since this is an issue that's been happening for a long time, I think they would probably-- Actually, I'm not sure about that, Brian. I'm not sure.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman, by the way, talking about the county level, has supported Massapequa and the other districts. In a statement, he wrote, "Thank you, President Trump, for supporting our culture, our history, and our identity here in Nassau County with the Massapequa Chiefs, Wantagh Warriors, and others who praise and honor our Native American history," that from Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman. Also joining us now for a few minutes is John Kane, a Native activist who's a Mohawk member of the New York State Indigenous Mascot Advisory Council and host of the shows Let's Talk Native and Resistance Radio with John Kane. John, thanks for joining for a few minutes. Welcome back to WNYC.

John Kane: Well, thanks again for having me, Brian. Pleasure joining you.

Brian Lehrer: The resistance to the name change in Massapequa goes something like this. Something like this line in an op-ed by the New York Post editorial, it says, "Look, the school's mascot isn't meant to mock Native Americans. It's meant to honor the heritage of Massapequa, a town that's named after one of Long Island's original 13 tribes." Talk about that. React to that.

John Kane: Well, if it was really meant to honor, then they'd have a whole program about Native people in the school. Look, their mascot is a Plains Indian, Hollywood stereotypical image of a full headdress profile. It doesn't even represent what a Native person in that area would have looked like. The fact of the matter is that, look, in 2001, the commissioner of education then, Richard Mills, who was serving under George Pataki. President at the time was George Bush. He told schools then over 20 years ago that Native people are not honored by this. Regardless of your intent, Native people find it offensive.

He told them this over 20 years ago and he said he called on them to remove the mascots and do it at a time that was practical. He essentially told them, "Phase it out so it wouldn't be any kind of financial burden to you. Phase it out over time." I don't think he meant 20 or 25 years, but I think he told them, "Do it in a time that's practical." That's specifically what his memorandum said. The only thing that's happened now is that the current commissioner of education and, of course, the Board of Regents has said, "Okay, enough is enough. We told you 20 years ago." I got to tell you, the vast majority of schools did drop the Native mascots then.

Brian Lehrer: Right.

John Kane: Some of them didn't.

Brian Lehrer: That's true.

John Kane: I think over 100 kept them. Some of them really, really doubled down, including the school that I took on, which was the basis of this ban in the first place, which is Cambridge, New York. The images become ubiquitous with even walking into the school. They put them everywhere. Cafeteria uniform, staff uniforms, folding chairs. They put it on their football fields and their artificial turf. They literally put these things everywhere. Some of these schools did just the opposite of what Richard Mills told them to do over 20 years ago and they spent more money on it.

Brian Lehrer: John, how much of Indigenous New York do you think your point of view represents? We also reached out to the Massapequa Board of Education. They gave us a statement from the Board of Ed president, Kerry Wachter, which includes this, "We're especially grateful to the Native American Guardians Association for its support and advocacy."

Then it goes on to say, "Attempts to erase Native American imagery do not advance learning. They distract from our core mission of providing a high-quality education grounded in respect, history, and community values." Several New York Post articles cite, the Native American Guardians Association and some others who don't think these names have to be removed in order to respect them. In fact, some of them, some of the people quoted like the idea of maintaining Indigenous imagery.

John Kane: I won't say that every individual, legitimate Native person is opposed to the use of mascots, but I also say that every legitimate Native organization, every nation, every organization, the National Congress, the American Indian, you said the Native American Guardians Association, every legitimate native organization has condemned the practice. Again, every nation has given a statement of some sort, including everyone within the state.

This organization that calls themselves the Guardians, they really just pander to non-Native people, the white people, over the mascot. The only other issue that they've come out strongly against was getting rid of Columbus Day. They support Columbus Day and they support the use of Native mascot. They support this mockery. Most of these guys are fraud. They're not Native at all. A few of them are, but every Native organization condemned this organization and the fact that they claim to represent some vast majority of Native people. They don't.

Anybody who's ever listened to these guys really know that they are very ill-equipped. Here's the thing, Brian. Nobody ever says what positive thing a Native mascot does. Why is it that only Native people are used this way? Nobody else is used in this manner. They don't do this with Black people or Jewish people or Hispanic people, Arab people. Native people are the only people use it. It's because we are so marginalized.

I think the overwhelming majority of Native organizations and Native people-- and, of course, this gets a little fuzzy because, look, anybody can claim to have Native ancestry. We see that play out even in the Senate, right? We know that anybody can claim to be Native. When the real active polls have been done like at Berkeley and other places, what they noted was that the more a Native person is drawn to the culture, part of a Native community, the more they oppose. If you elect that your grandmother was a Cherokee princess, you might be fine with [unintelligible 00:13:35] previous name or any of these guys calling them Chiefs or anything else.

Brian Lehrer: Let me throw one question from a listener at you and then I'll let you go and we'll continue with Darwin from Newsday and some callers. Listener writes, "I can see the objection to a name like Redskins, but my husband's Syosset team was the Braves. Not derogatory and neither is the Chiefs. It's an honorary to Indigenous people. At the same time, I wish Trump would get his nose out of New York." [chuckles] What do you say to the first part of that, that there's a difference between a name like the Redskins and a name that many may not see derogatory like the Braves or the Chiefs?

John Kane: Well, there's no question that the Redskins is a derogatory term beyond the dictionary-defined slur that it is. It's a derogatory term. Nobody uses a Native people as a mascot to be derogatory. They're basically trying to reinvent for themselves what they believe a Native person is. They always represent us as warlike warriors or savage or fierce or somehow intimidating. They created their own image of what a Native person is to reflect what they want to represent.

It really has very little to do with us. See, the problem isn't so much whether the words are inappropriate. It's the fact that they're using us for their amusement and their entertainment. They are basically mocking our existence because they chose. You got to put this thing in some historical perspective too. The irony that these schools, at the time that they appropriated these names, existed at the same time that Native kids were being ripped out of their home, out of their community, sent off to boarding schools to have their identity stripped away from them.

Again, juxtaposed against white kids being able to smear mom's makeup on their face and beat on their oatmeal canisters and play Indian as a part of school. I invited people to come out because I screened the movie Sugarcane a couple of weeks ago in Huntington. I hope that some of the people who were pro-mascot would actually sit through and watch a film about the atrocities that Native people went through just so they would have some balance and say, "Yes, maybe it isn't appropriate for us to try to steal their identity when their identity is being stripped away from them by the churches and by the government."

Brian Lehrer: John Kane, Native activist who's a Mohawk member of the New York State Indigenous Mascot Advisory Council and host of the shows Let's Talk Native and Resistance Radio with John Kane. John, thanks for giving us a few minutes.

John Kane: Well, thanks again for having me, Brian, and I'd love to join you anytime.

Brian Lehrer: A few more minutes on this Long Island Native names for teams and/or mascots at some high schools issue with Darwin Yanes, education reporter at Newsday, still with us. Why do they resist? Why do they resist? Why isn't it just a simple matter of, "Look, the large majority--" at least as John presents it seems to be the case, the large majority of Native Americans, Native American organizations really hate this. As just a matter of simple courtesy to an "other," since it's, of course, not a majority Indigenous district, why do they resist so fiercely?

Darwin Yanes: From some conversations I've had with some community members, they've expressed a real connection, they said, to these mascots and these names. They've noticed, as John said, that they feel as though they're honoring the Native American history. Not only that, they're honoring their own history. A lot of these people were chiefs or warriors when they were in high school. For instance, one person I spoke to has the mascot tattooed on his arm. That's how passionate they are about it as well. I think another aspect is that some of these folks feel that this is a way for them to fight for local control rather than having the state come in and tell them that they have to make this change. I think that's a part of it as well.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Do I have the number right? Nine school districts did make that change after the 2023 policy was passed by the state?

Darwin Yanes: Yes. As it went on, as I mentioned earlier, some of the school districts that did have opposition, they ended up dropping the opposition and either making the change or saying they would comply by the deadline, which is June 30th of this year.

Brian Lehrer: Jim in Massapequa, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jim. Thanks for calling in.

Jim: Thank you for taking my call. Yes, I'm a resident of Massapequa. I'm not politicizing this in any way, shape, or form. I'm not going Democrat or Republican, but I feel the whole thing is really silly because, again, as other people have mentioned, it's an honor we're calling them Chiefs. We're not calling them savages, redskins, or anything derogatory. In addition to that, we're actually the name of our town. Massapequa is an Indian name, and so is Wantagh.

There are many names of the towns within Long Island and also probably around the state that are Native American names. I feel that they're going to make us change the name of our towns now. I feel it's silly. Look at the Kansas City Chiefs, the football team. There's no problem there. I feel since it's an honorable name, it's like calling them generals. It's like calling them commodores. It's calling them very positive connotations that they should keep it that way.

Brian Lehrer: Jim, for you, if they just don't want it, the large majority of Native Americans or Indigenous Americans, and to one of the things that John Kane was saying, if it seems stereotypical, the way the imagery is used like it does go back to the old Cowboys and Indians kids games, which implies savages, or it just seems discriminatory like using any stereotype, typical imagery of any group, why do you care?

Jim: I guess it comes to tradition. Again, we're not using it as a negative connotation. It's a positive thing that we're uplifting the Native Americans by using the name Chiefs. I feel it's, again, tradition. There's a lot of traditions that we've gone and do we know that this is a majority of the Native American tribes or just a vocal minority?

Brian Lehrer: Jim, thank you. I wonder if our reporter can answer that question. Have you looked into it at that level?

Darwin Yanes: A lot of the folks that I've talked to in the Native American community have expressed, they think that these are negative depictions of communities that, especially today, are alive and thriving. They've said that they don't feel that this is an accurate depiction of them and an accurate tribute. I can't speak for all Native Americans, but just the ones that I have spoken to. They've said, "There's other ways to honor us as well. Protect our burial sites, teach more about Native American history in the classrooms, and things like that."

Brian Lehrer: Jim, thank you very much for your call. Call us again. Listener responds to Jim writing, "The irony of Long Island residents being up in arms about their personal history being erased by changing the name that the communities are 'honoring' want them to change." He brought up the Kansas City Chiefs. Susan in Bergen County in Jersey is calling, saying, "That may not be an accurate analogy." Susan, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Susan: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. In actuality, the Kansas City football team is not named for Native Americans. The first owner of the football team was H. Roe Bartle. His employees used to call him Chief. Naturally, the football team then that he owned was then named the Kansas City Chiefs. Their football team name has nothing to do with Native Americans. Now, originally, it used to be that when they wanted a touchdown, they would have a guy in a Native American headdress right around the stadium on a bareback horse. They stopped doing that. It has nothing to do with Native Americans.

Brian Lehrer: Susan, thank you. Do you know that? I don't actually know about the Kansas City Chiefs, the origin of the name. Did you report on that by any chance, Darwin, in the context of the Massapequa story?

Darwin Yanes: I did not. I'm not sure about that.

Brian Lehrer: Our producer on the case just looked it up even as that caller was on and writes to me, "That is what the Kansas City Chief's website says," what she's saying. That's interesting. Well, I think we're going to leave it here. We're not going to settle it. In terms of who has the power now, this is going down the chain, right? You say the deadline is coming up for these Long Island school districts to change these Native American team names or mascots.

Otherwise, they're going to lose state funding. Now, the Trump administration is saying, "Oh yes, you do that in New York State, you will lose federal education funding." Who wins or do you have any indication that the state is going to back down now because more money may be at stake than they would withhold from Massapequa or Wantagh or the others?

Darwin Yanes: I think it's a bit unclear. What I can say is that I know the state has pushed back on other measures that the federal Department of Education has required them to do. I'm not sure what exactly is next and who will win. With the deadline approaching, I think it'll just be interesting to see what the state Department of Education and the Board of Regents decides to do next.

Brian Lehrer: Darwin Yanes, education reporter for Newsday, thank you very, very much.

Darwin Yanes: Thanks, Brian.

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