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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Now we'll look at a quiet but potentially significant policy change that could have consequences for students learning English in schools across the country if English is not their first language. On March 1st of this year, President Trump signed an executive order, "designating English as the official language of the United States."

Now, that might be a kind of culture war declaration, but while the order itself did not require or direct any change in services, it did revoke a previous executive order from the end of Bill Clinton's presidency that improved access to services for people with limited English proficiency. Now, here we are a few months later, and suddenly, actions in accordance with this executive order are taking place. Last week, the Department of Education suddenly rescinded what's known as a Dear Colleague letter. It was a document detailing best practices for educators serving students learning English as a second language.

Joining me now to discuss what this could mean for schools, families, our nation as a whole, and more than 5 million students college currently learning English in public schools across the country, are Ileana Najarro, reporter for Education Week covering race and opportunity in U.S. schools, and Kate Menken, professor of linguistics and a research fellow at the Research Institute for the Study of Language in an Urban Society at Queens College, part of CUNY in Queens, of course, and co-editor in chief of the journal, Language Policy. Ileana, Kate, welcome to WNYC.

Kate Menken: Good morning. Thank you very much.

Ileana Najarro: Hi. Good morning.

Brian Lehrer: Ileana, would you explain the action from the Trump administration's Education Department? What practical effect does this rescission of best practice guidelines, and we'll go over what some of them are, but the rescission of even the idea of federal guidelines for best practices in teaching English as a second language in the schools, what is the rescission produce as an immediate effect, if anything?

Ileana Najarro: Right. Thanks again for having me, Brian. I want to be very clear to our audience here and to educators across the country. What rescinding the letter doesn't do, it doesn't change any of the federal responsibilities that schools have to students who are identified as English learners. A lot of their federal civil rights, when it comes to their language acquisition support and their academic success, is still law of the land. However, rescinding this letter is effectively sending a message of the administration's priorities when it comes to ensuring that students' rights are being met.

This letter, it's not automatically saying, "Forget all of these laws, do whatever you want with students who are identified as English learners," but it is effectively saying that if there are scenarios where school districts are not meeting the legal obligation that they have for these students, and families and advocates and community members and even educators want to bring this to the attention of an investigation from the Office for Civil Rights, that is no longer going to be a top priority.

We know that the Trump administration does have some priorities in terms of exercising the rights of the Office for Civil Rights to investigate any cases of wrongdoing in schools, cases of discrimination, but they're no longer focusing on issues of discrimination and experiences of English learners in schools. Again, the Dear Colleague letter itself was not a legally binding document, and it didn't very explicitly tell schools what to do. It just gave them options and recommendations of what they could do to meet their legal obligations. Now, with it being rescinded, it is sending a clear message that this isn't a priority for the administration in terms of making sure that schools are doing their job with these students.

Brian Lehrer: To further clarify the kinds of discrimination and discrimination suits that you're referring to that could have been brought in the past before they rescinded this previous executive order from President Clinton, they had to do mostly with schools that were not providing enough opportunities for students who are not proficient in English to learn the material from all the courses that they offer. Is that it in a nutshell?

Ileana Najarro: Effectively. This is again from a 2015 Dear Colleague letter that emphasized schools need to appropriately identify students who are English learners. In other words, correctly determine whether a child needs additional language assistance, actually provide a language assistance program that is backed by research, and also making sure that if a child is identified as an English learner, that that classification does not exclude them from extracurricular activities from Advanced Placement courses. That's part and parcel right of what all of these federal laws say that you have to make sure these students have, basically, quality access to education, regardless of their home language.

Brian Lehrer: Kate, I'll bring you into this conversation now. What was the Dear Colleague letter on best practices? Can you talk about some of the best practices that the federal government has previously laid out for educators to follow for English language learners?

Kate Menken: Yes, certainly. The Dear Colleague letter required a number of things. First of all, like what Ileana just noted that multilingual learners-- I should clarify, in New York, the law referred to or the policy at the time used the term English learners. We talk about these students as multilingual learners in New York. Forgive me if I use either of those.

Multilingual learners need to be properly identified. We need to know who are the students who need language support services in schools. We need to ensure that they are provided with language assistance programs to ensure they're able to learn English and access academic content in schools, and that they're educated by prepared teachers with expertise in serving multilingual learners, and so on.

I think what was significant about it was-- there's a legal significance, first of all, because within the policy landscape of the U.S., what the Dear Colleague letter did was bring together the Education Department and the Department of Justice to build on a number of federal laws and educational policies, as well as Supreme Court decisions we have that have together been interpreted to mean that schools have to provide language learning and academic support services for multilingual learners.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we invite your phone calls on this. Before school starts in Ernest and a lot of school systems in our area and around the country, anybody who teaches English language learners in any way, whether it's specifically language classes or anything else, you have English language learners in your class and you're teaching history, you're teaching math, whatever it is, how do you compensate for the lack of English proficiency that they may be starting with?

How does the policy in your school district require or enable you to do that? How does anything from state law, wherever you are, or the federal government, as they're now pulling back on, help you to do that or hinder you from doing that, for that matter? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Educators or people who are English language learners yourselves or have any English language learners in your family, give us a call and help us report this story too. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text. Ileana, were you trying to get in there and follow up on what Kate was saying?

Ileana Najarro: Yes. I think the other important context that I think is key here, and why a lot of educators and advocates are concerned about the decision to rescind this Dear Colleague letter, the statement officially from the U.S. Department of Education, when asked the rationale for why, is that it is not aligned with administration priorities. There have been some other key policy changes this year alone that have directly affected English learners, that paint a bigger picture of what those priorities are from the federal administration regarding English learners.

Just very quickly, some examples of major policy changes that have already happened, this year, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security revoked a policy memo that used to declare schools as a protected area from immigration enforcement. Now, to be clear, the majority of English learners in the United States are actually U.S.-born citizens themselves, but many of these students are also from immigrant families or immigrants themselves.

When that memo was replaced with a much leaner document saying immigration officials can simply use common sense when conducting immigration enforcement around schools or in schools, that sent a lot of concerns among a lot of educators working with immigrant students and English learners about what does this mean moving forward for students.

Almost all employees from the only federal office in the Department of Education that was dedicated to English learners, known as the Office of English Language Acquisition, almost all of those employees were laid off as part of the mass dismissals that were going on at the U.S. Department of Education earlier this year. That begs the question of, again, how big of a priority are these students to the Department of Education if that office was whittled down significantly?

Federal dollars that are dedicated to help schools supplement their services to English learners, they're known as the Title III state formula grants, those were initially withheld this year. They've ultimately been released to states and trickling down there to school districts. President Trump has called for eliminating this specific bucket of money dedicated to English learners for the 2026-'27 school year. Of course, as you mentioned at the top, Brian, the executive order declaring English as the country's official language.

When you put all of these policy actions together, along with this most recent decision to rescind the Dear Colleague letter, there is a big question right now in the education world about exactly how much attention, service, and assistance is the federal government going to provide and prioritize for the students that is one-- they make up one of the biggest growing population of public school students in the country?

Brian Lehrer: If you're just joining us, our guests are Ileana Najarro, reporter for Education Week, covering race and opportunity in U.S. schools. She was just speaking. Kate Menken, professor of linguistics and a research fellow at the Research Institute for the Study of Language in an Urban Society at Queens College, and co-editor in chief of the journal Language Policy.

Kate, on language policy, this executive order that the president issued in March declaring English is the official language of the United States, a listener writes, "The U.S. does not have an official language. This is nonsense nativism. He wants to make immigrants' lives as hard as possible." I have a feeling you'll agree with that. You can weigh in on that or not, but is there a connection between the designation of English as the official language of the U.S., which might just be something President Trump wants to say, and the practical application of help to English language learners in the classroom?

Kate Menken: That's exactly right, because what this is now, I see this rescission as part of this-- They're talking about this decision to make English declare English as the sole official national language of the United States. This rescission of the guidelines regarding services for multilingual learners is very much part of that. It's part of this broader context that Ileana just overviewed. Basically, the United States, and I do agree, the United States is and always has been a country of immigrants and a multilingual country, and remains one today.

I think just in New York City alone, we're not talking about a small population of students. Right now, approximately 19% of students enrolled in New York City public schools, that's over 150,000 students, are designated English learners. The U.S. historically has alternated between periods of time when we've restricted languages other than English, and we've been offered more support for linguistic diversity. Taken together what these things do, are to set a policy context that really, it creates stepping stones to the denial of services for speakers of languages other than English and intolerance for those languages.

Brian Lehrer: Kate, on language learning itself, a listener writes, "ESL teacher here. Does Trump's decision mean students who don't speak English will have more of a right to language classes or less?"

Kate Menken: I think that's a great question. If the promise to defund Title III is any indication, what they are aiming to do is to provide less of those services. Remember that Title III is federal funding that funds our English as a New Language and Bilingual Education programs that are available in schools in New York and across the country to help multilingual learners and immigrant students to achieve in school. These programs support language instruction and students accessing academic content.

Brian Lehrer: Then, Ileana, for you as an education reporter, how does that connect with another stated political goal of the administration? Because I see that Attorney General Pam Bondi said the motive here is to "promote assimilation over division." Promote assimilation over division. If that's the goal, how does giving less English language instruction to English language learners promote assimilation?

Ileana Najarro: I think, to Kate's point, that's the big question that we all have, because I want to add as well that in July, the Justice Department did release initial guidance regarding how federal agencies can comply with the executive order from March, of English as the country's official language. That memo did note that the agency would be considering looking into research that could expedite English language acquisition.

The thing is, there is already a huge body of research to show that one of the most effective ways for students, especially at younger ages, to acquire the English language is to also help them develop their existing home language. There is a degree of transference that young children, especially, are able to do if they already display literacy skills in one language, that can help them as they're learning to read in another language. The priority from the Trump administration at the same time is to diminish efforts to promote bilingual and multilingual education.

In the president's skinny budget, regarding calling for the elimination of Title III, that's what stated. That, "Oh, we don't want these dollars to go towards bilingual education." If you're also saying, "We want to know what the research says," the research is there. If you want children to more effectively and efficiently become fluent in English in all the modalities, reading, writing, speaking, you shouldn't discourage children from suddenly putting aside their home language and instead using it as a leverage.

There is a lot of confusion right now about, there is a clear priority. Okay. Again, I don't think there are any real groups or agencies that are saying, "We don't want anybody to learn English." I think if you do ask the majority of immigrant families across the country, they recognize the value, and if we're being honest, the power that the English language has in economic settings, in educational settings. It is very often the language of instruction in the U.S. and in other parts of the world.

Brian Lehrer: I guess the argument from the administration is, and we've heard this from conservatives for a long time, if you make it too easy for immigrant kids to get by in school without English by catering other courses to their current language abilities, then there's going to be less uptake of English because there's less pressure to learn English as well. Then we're going to wind up a more divided society.

Kate Menken: I think it's a really important point. I think that we should question any definition of assimilation that means that you have to give up your home language or cultural identity in order to be American, especially looking at the history of our country as a multilingual nation. I think what we're talking about are these opportunities for civic engagement, participation, and work opportunities. If we really want these things, the research evidence is very clear that services need to be provided.

Adding further to what Illeana was saying, we have a robust base of research now indicating that students who have the opportunity to attend bilingual education programs will outperform their peers who have attended monolingual programs, suggesting really ample evidence now in favor of bilingual approaches. That's an idea that I think is counterintuitive to some people. This idea that if you actually want our multilingual learners to learn English and learn English better, that you need to support their home languages in order to do so. I think that that's really a central understanding to all of this that I hope that everyone knows about.

Brian Lehrer: Joe in North Plainfield, you're on WNYC. Hi, Joe.

Joe: Hi. How are you doing? I'm a high school teacher, and I have a lot of students who speak Spanish and then Arabic and things like that. I'm a proponent not of English language learners, but I think that people should not learn English as a second language, but English as a double first language. In other words, they must be able to speak English. Because I teach physics, and I only speak English. I can only deliver the concepts of the course material in English.

Brian Lehrer: Well, what's the difference in practical terms? If you have a student who, let's say, came here at nine years old, only speaking the language of their country of origin, what's the difference between what you're saying, English as a second first language, and just English as a second language, which sequentially is what it is?

Joe: Say that again, please. I didn't quite get that.

Brian Lehrer: If somebody comes here as a kid and they only start out with the language of their country of origin, what's the difference between English as a second language, which it just factually is, and what you're promoting?

Joe: Well, the difference is the amount of fluidity to it. That if you speak English fluently, that means you speak English without reference to another language and without thinking. In other words, you and I are having a conversation in English. You don't think about what you're going to say before you say it, because that's obvious.

Brian Lehrer: I guess being debated, Joe, is how to most effectively get students to that point. Do you have an opinion as a high school physics teacher, maybe, having seen kids come through, do language programs, ESL programs, whatever, what's most effective in your experience?

Joe: Well, what's most effective is what's most effective in learning any language? We always learn language by immersion. Nobody teaches us how to speak. We have to be taught how to write, but nobody teaches how to speak. We just absorb it. My proponent is, if I was doing the program, I would put the new students in a class where there were three teachers and they just speak English. All they do for the whole day is learn English. Then once they achieve proficiency, we put them back into the academic program. Now that would shift some of the regulations about, you can't go to school for free past a certain age, and all that kind of stuff.

When you put a student in my classroom that doesn't speak English, I consider that elder abuse and child abuse because the kid is just lost. I can't help him because I don't speak those languages.

Brian Lehrer: Joe, I'm going to leave it there. I really appreciate your call. Ileana, you want to respond to any of that?

Ileana Najarro: I will say one thing to keep in mind here because we just heard from a high school teacher, when we're talking about the English learner population in the country, this is a fascinating point to clarify for a lot of our audience, if you're not already aware, there are English learners who are, more often than not, enrolling kindergarten not speaking or being fluent in English. The ideal is that by third, fourth grade, they've exited out of the English learner program because now they're fluent in English, and these students go on to even become high school valedictorians.

What we just heard is something that I have seen and heard from educators in my reporting of older English learner students, particularly those who enter in high school. You are in a tough spot there, where you have a very limited amount of time compared to the child that enrolled in kindergarten, to be able to get the student to both acquire the English language and succeed academically. What I will note is that what researchers have often proposed, and some districts have been trying out, is figuring out how to teach the English language to older students within an academic context.

On the one hand, we just heard, putting the student aside, make sure that they've mastered the English language, then bring them into content, but there are folks that are trying out other strategies of saying, "Well, actually, you can have a bilingual aide in the classroom to help, perhaps the teacher that is trying to teach the entire classroom at once in case that English learner student needs additional support, but that the physics teacher, the English teacher, the history teacher is teaching the English language within the context of academics."

There is, for instance, a vocabulary to math. There is a way to write a scientific paper that is not the way you're going to write a paper in a history class, kind of thing. There are opportunities there for teachers to incorporate language acquisition assistance to older students in their work. The one issue here is that that level of training, that level of professional development, is not necessarily readily available across the country.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We will see what President Trump's rescission of a past executive order and a so-called Dear Colleague letter on best practices for English language learning students means. We thank Ileana Najarro, reporter for Education Week, and Kate Menken, Queens College professor. Thank you both very much for joining us.

Kate Menken: Thank you.

Ileana Najarro: Thank you.

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