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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, a step under New York Times political reporter and host of their 2024 campaign podcast, The Run-Up. He had two episodes after the Biden-Trump debate that focused on that, obviously, significant evening on June 24th. He spoke to a group of Americans from Democratic and Republican perspectives who had come together in a dialogue group called Braver Angels, and he revisited interviews he had done with prominent Democrats over the last 18 months about Biden's age as a concern. We'll play some clips from both and get his take. Always good to have you, Astead. Welcome back to WNYC.

Astead Herndon: Thanks, Brian, for having me. I appreciate it.

Brian Lehrer: Let's start with a focus group, if that's the right word for it. Tell us about the group, Braver Angels.

Astead Herndon: Yes. This is a political group that came together in the wake of the 2016 election when, frankly, people were having the discussion with themselves, "How do we transcend political divides? Is there a safe space where we can talk about political differences with families, communities, relatives and the like?" What they came together with was this group called Braver Angels, which tries to create discussions amongst ideologically mixed groups of people and have these policy debates where it mimics a high school public forum style, where they can talk about more contentious issues, but they want to do it in a safe space of respect.

When we saw that they were having a debate night watch party and that they're having a convention in Kenosha, Wisconsin, thought it was a great place to get a mix of DR and Independent, but also a group of people who I know are committed to wrestling with the divisions in our political system and, frankly, what we can do about them.

Brian Lehrer: Good group. They actually identify their basic politics in the group by wearing different color wristbands?

Astead Herndon: Yes. They all have lanyards that correspond with red for Republican, blue for Democrat, yellow for Independent, and a white lanyard if you're professionally exempt from saying. It was helpful as a journalist because you knew if we saw tables of those mixed lanyards, that we can go up to people and get a different sense of perspective. There was a universal agreement about that debate as, frankly, disappointing for country writ large, but particularly Biden's performance. That matches with the data that we see, that actually was the thing that transcends most political divisions right now, is a belief that most folks don't want either candidate.

Brian Lehrer: I don't think I've heard the word lanyard in a long time. I guess it means we're really in summer camp season. Here's a clip of one of the blue lanyard members named Corey, who is in that group, who Democrats listening will probably be very troubled by.

Corey: I have been cringing the entire time I've been watching this, to the point where just listening to Biden talk and responding, he's really not responding, in my opinion. Trump's wiping the floor with him in this debate, if you want my honest opinion. It's to the point, watching this, where I am considering flipping my vote for me, because I'm listening to Trump respond to this and respond to-- he's doing the same thing he always does, where he doesn't really answer the question that's being asked until the very last second, but he's convincing me and that's taken a lot.

Brian Lehrer: With a little music bed there, in case you were wondering what that was, from Astead's podcast, Corey really alarming for Democrats. If you think that's representative of any meaningful number of voters, considering that so many Democrats consider Trump an existential threat to democracy, not to mention tolerance and goodwill toward others, in America. Based on your reporting, could many people actually consider going from Biden to Trump, like that voter sounded like, just because of how they view Biden's cognitive state?

Astead Herndon: Well, there is certainly a lack of confidence or a difficult crisis of confidence for a lot of people who liked Biden from the debate. Now, Corey was someone we identified because in the middle of the Braver Angels watch party, she stood up in a commercial break and announced to the group that she felt she could no longer vote for President Biden and that she would be open to voting for Donald Trump.

Corey is one of those classic journalistic bellwether swing voters. She voted for Trump in 2016. She voted for Biden in 2020. She lives in Ohio and considers herself left-leaning specifically because of the issue on abortion. When we talk more with her, she said that Trump in that debate just presented as less radical or extreme than she expected, particularly on the issue of abortion.

You couple that with her feeling that Biden was just not fully cognitively there, and it created a situation where by the end of our conversation, she actually said that she was open to voting for all three candidates, that she has Biden, Trump, and RFK Jr. on her list. I think that speaks to what a lot of people are feeling right now, which is the discomfort with their options has created a flat playing field.

Unless you're a firm D or a firm R, those kind of classic swing voters or the people who are choosing between whether to participate in the process at all, we see that debate really cause, I said this before, but a even greater crisis of confidence than what we've seen over the last year when people haven't wanted to tune into this race. For a lot of people, the debate was the beginning of them tuning into that race and they didn't like what they saw.

Brian Lehrer: With Astead Herndon, who does the New York Times campaign season podcast, The Run-Up. Listeners, the phones are open, for a few minutes anyway, for anything you want to ask or say to Astead. You can also continue to react to the news about the Democrats' deliberations about Biden, which continue to evolve pretty quickly. Anyone swayed by the new George Clooney op-ed, which broke after yesterday's show, calling on Biden to drop out?

Remember, Clooney isn't just Hollywood, he's a major fundraiser for Biden and feels close to him, or New York State Lieutenant Governor, Antonio Delgado. This also broke after yesterday's show. Breaking with Governor Hochul now. Delgado calling for Biden to leave the race when Hochl doesn't, or Nancy Pelosi yesterday going on MSNBC to say this decision is still open, even though Biden said it was closed, or any reaction to what you're hearing here from Astead. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

By the way, before we play another clip, did it come up in the group that no president does this alone, that Biden is the leader of a team that carries out his policies as opposed to Trump and his team? That's even if Biden goes down on a given day or longer term while in office, the Biden-infused government goes on infused with his policies and his direction as opposed to the Trump-infused, which is the comparison.

Astead Herndon: Absolutely. When we talk to a group of Democrats and some independents who were considering their disappointment with Biden from the debate, that's what came up over and over. There were still people universally saying that they would vote for Biden over Trump, with the belief that policy and the larger groups surrounding Biden was most important.

I would say that even among that group of people who we talked to, there was a caveat to that, which was to say that that's still the worst possible situation for them in terms of enthusiasm for their candidate. They were hoping that the Democratic Party gave them a better reason to be excited about November by switching the Democratic candidate. They were saying that that could still be possible with a Kamala Harris or someone else on the top of the ticket.

I heard that explanation certainly, but it was more as a means of justifying something that they were always going to do in terms of backing the Democrats. They were still saying that was the least common denominator in terms of general enthusiasm.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another younger member of the group, Braver Angels, also blue-leaning, interestingly, less swayed by the debate despite this person's young age.

Speaker 4: Although I don't think Biden has any idea where he is, whoever is running the show over there, I'm a fan of the policy. I think the investment in renewable technology that was made a couple years ago-- there's a lot of things about what's going on, whether he has any idea what they are or not, that I like.

Brian Lehrer: Talk about that person. Maybe I misidentified the person by age based on that voice, but you tell me.

Astead Herndon: [laughs] No, they were at a table with a mixed group of folks. I wouldn't say this person was younger, middle age, but they were saying an argument that we heard consistently, which is that, quite frankly, the strongest political coalition across the country is the anti-Trump Coalition. We have seen this in 2020, we've seen this in the 2022 midterms and it's still there. I think it's important for us to not frame this race as a strong Republican nominee versus a feeble and weak Democratic one.

Frankly, the evidence points to that any other Republican would be in a much stronger position than Donald Trump against Biden, particularly because of sentiments like we hear now. There is a list of policy accomplishments that the Biden administration can tell as a cohesive story. What lays in the minds of a lot of voters is the chaos that was core to the Trump administration four years prior.

That is what I think the Biden campaign in recent weeks, I heard you talking about Project 2025, is trying to refocus this race on, is a comparison between those two options. The problem is the question of age becomes a filter for this whole candidacy and administration. For a lot of people, the question of readiness and fitness maybe even supersedes anything else.

Corey, the person you talked to earlier told me that the biggest difference from her vote from Biden in 2020 and her questioning that vote now is that she feels that character matters less to her, and that she thinks Biden is a better character, but she wants to prioritize someone who she feels is fit and strong over whether someone is the nicer person. She was recognizing Donald Trump's faults, but at the same time, saying that that wasn't going to be her top rubric for presidential options.

Brian Lehrer: I mentioned that idea of Biden not having to be totally on top of it at every moment because the administration is run by a whole team of people. Frederick in Princeton is calling in with another example of that that he wants to compare Biden to, I guess. Frederick, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Frederick: Sure. Thank you very much, Brian. Yes, I think, and I'm going with the ideology of the Biden and the left all the way, because the party is intact and it knows what it's doing, and he's got a long list of success, but let's look at Rupert Murdoch. There's a guy there that they moved him over. You may look at some of the facts why they did it, but they moved him over because of a lot of failings. His two sons and his daughter, I think, run that organization right now, and it's still doing fantastic, although I am not pro the New York Post at all, but-

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to leave it there for time, but I think you made your point. Rupert Murdoch is, I think, 93, and it's still Murdoch ethic-directed, even though he's not running it day-to-day, so maybe there's a parallel there.

Astead, your other relevant episode that I want to make sure to get to here was called How Democrats Got Here with Biden. You note that you've been putting this line of inquiry to top Democrats for 18 months about why Biden wasn't challenged by anyone of significance in the primary season, and how everyone fell into line despite consistent polling that his age was a big problem. We'll play a clip of Biden's former chief of staff, Ron Klain, from your podcast in just a minute. What's your big-picture answer to your own question of how Democrats got here?

Astead Herndon: Well, the blunt response is they got here through their own willful ignorance of what was the top concern for voters consistently over the last couple of years. They got here because they refused to ask the questions that could even come up with a plan B in case of some rapid physical or mental decline from the president. They got here because they misinterpreted the mandate from 2020 and a Biden that had questions around his age, even when he was nominated back then. Those concerns weren't really listened to over the last couple of years.

When we were at the DNC last year, we were posing this question to Democrats about them clearing the path from a nomination for someone who the majority of Americans thought was unfit for a second term, and we were, frankly, getting brushed aside over and over. That sense of party unity never matched up with the data, never matched up with the evidence, and was based on a set of faulty beliefs, one, that Donald Trump would make this campaign inherently easier for any Democratic nominee because they thought his legal troubles would, frankly, invalidate him as a presidential option. That has not come to pass.

The second thing I think I would say is they told his policy accomplishments would override age concerns, and that hasn't come to pass either. Those were huge assumptions that were allowing them to dismiss the data and the journalists asking that for a long time. Frankly, at this moment, it becomes a crisis of their own creation.

Brian Lehrer: I think many people dismiss the concern about age because maybe that was the wrong way to put it in the polling questions. It's not about a number, it's about perception of and behavior by the individual.

For example, Anthony Fauci was on the show with me last month. He's 83, two years older than Biden. Anybody listening to that segment would know that he was kicking it. Agree or disagree with Anthony Fauci on policy, nobody would've come away from that interview thinking, "Oh, he can't handle himself in a debate. Oh, he couldn't run the National Institute of Health section that he ran anymore." Should the discussion, and maybe the polls, have always asked a different question, not is Biden too old as a concept, but state of the individual?

Astead Herndon: I think that's an important distinction. [unintelligible 00:14:38] a couple of days ago, we saw Maxine Waters give a very forceful defense of Biden, and the people in the audience were telling me, "Well, Biden doesn't sound like that when he talks, even though she's older than him." It is so specific to the individual, and I would say the debate really proved that out before the answers. Even Biden's saunter to the stage was a reminder of just how this individual candidate is the one that voters are reacting to.

That's why I think the 2020 point is really important also, is because this isn't a new concern for people. This was a concern that was raised four years ago, and the campaign sent intentional signals to people to massage those concerns. I think you're making an important point, it's not just age, it is the physical and mental fitness of candidate, and that's why I think the question of Biden being shielded from press, Biden not doing open interviews, not having those kind of impromptu unscripted campaign moments, all of those become bigger proof points than just the number of age itself.

Brian Lehrer: David, in Dallas, you're on WNYC with Astead Herndon from The Times in their Run-Up campaign podcast. Hi, David.

David: Hi. Thank you, Brian. Astead, I'm a big fan. I'm a new listener to WNYC from Texas, but Astead, you have really helped me in a lot of ways with your podcast and just with your reporting. I'm a young swing voter, and so oftentimes when I saw the debate, that was just proof of what you've been sharing in your podcast. For me, I was hopeful that the Democrats would come bring forth a new candidate, just for some freshness, because I've been excited to see that. But really, Astead, your podcast has given me life just in this campaign process. I just wanted to thank you for that and also thank you for this the conversation that you've been having.

Brian Lehrer: Can I ask you, David, I'm just curious, since you described yourself as a new listener to WNYC from Texas, how'd you find us? How'd you become aware of us?

David: Well, I love visiting New York City. I'm a subscriber to The Times, and I love public radio. I've learned so much. I love how educational it is. Brian, your show specifically, I've enjoyed just the opportunity to be able to call in and to listen. I listen from the app, I listen from the website, but when you had Astead on, I was like, "Okay, I've got to at least just tell them thank you, so thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: Great. David, thank you so much.

Astead Herndon: Thank you. That's really-

Brian Lehrer: Astead, do want to say anything to your fan there?

Astead Herndon: [laughs] No, that's really kind. What our goal was to do in this podcast was to have a space of honesty and trust and nuance about what I knew was going to be a really difficult election. I think that there was a lot of concern over the last year or so, were we focusing too much on age? For me, it was really important that we were reflecting voter concerns and putting those concerns to the top Democrats in that response. And so, it was hard a couple of times, but I think moments like that are really proof points. I think we were really trying to reflect what people were most concerned about in this election and I'm proud of that.

Brian Lehrer: David, tell all your friends in Dallas, this is a good place to come for campaign conversations. Ah, ha ha. Here's that Ron Klain clip from your podcast in which he appears to state, as a remedy for the debate performance, exactly what Biden has been doing since.

Ron Klain: Well, I think what has to change about the Biden campaign is we have to have a campaign. There's going to be an election, the president will go out, he'll campaign, people will hear his argument. I think they'll be persuaded by it. I think the more they see him out there on the stump, the more they'll be as swatched about his age. They see him debating Donald Trump going toe to toe with Trump. I think, again, they'll be reassured about his age and their doubts about Trump will be reinforced.

Brian Lehrer: We're almost out of time, Astead, but give me a 32nd thought on that clip. I don't know if that was recorded after the debate or before the debate, but-

Astead Herndon: Before the debate.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and yet that's exactly what has happened after the debate. Suddenly he stepped up the public appearances because he asked to try to prove that he's capable.

Astead Herndon: Absolutely. All I would say is the difference is that seeing Joe Biden more has not assuaged people's concerns about age, it has magnified them. That is a fundamental problem that Biden 2024 has, is not the question of just the media or the narrative, or even voter concerns, it's substantive. Is this the candidate who can be out there enough, who can speak to voter concerns enough, and convince the country set for four more years?

The questions I was getting for Democrats on debate night was not even about four more years, it was should this person be the president right now today? That shows you the golf they have in convincing Americans that Joe Biden can serve for four more years. That's, frankly, the challenge that they have. That's the standard they've set for themselves. I think Klain is right, that people are going to be judging Biden as he is out there more, but will those judgments lead to people being less concerned about age, or would they fuel the desire to have a different person at the top of the ticket? That's not clear to me.

Brian Lehrer: All right. A couple of relevant program notes folks. One of the big appearances that people will be scrutinizing is the news conference that's scheduled for later today. It's a solo news conference, just Biden and reporters at the end of the NATO summit. We're going to have live coverage of that on the station. We think it's not going to happen until around 5:00 PM, maybe even a little later, but when it does happen today, we will be bringing you that live. Also, we invite you to sign up for the Brian Lehrer Show newsletter, which we launched recently, that drops on Thursday afternoons. My column in the newsletter today will be about the decision facing the Democrats on Joe Biden.

If you want to sign up for the Brian Lehrer Show newsletter, it's free, of course. Go to wnyc.org/blnewsletter and you'll get it in your inbox every Thursday afternoon, including in just a few hours today. Meanwhile, we thank Astead Herndon, political reporter for the New York Times, who does their campaign podcast called The Run-Up. Thanks for coming with clips in your analysis. Really appreciate it, Astead.

Astead Herndon: Thank you for having me. I love the show.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

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