Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As you probably know, over the weekend, two young men were charged with trying to detonate homemade bombs outside Gracie Mansion. Here is Police Commissioner Jessica Tisch explaining the charges.

Jessica Tisch: The defendants are charged with attempting to provide material support to ISIS, using a weapon of mass destruction, transporting explosive materials, interstate transportation and receipt of explosive materials, and unlawful possession of destructive devices.

Brian Lehrer: The bomb, which did not explode, was one of several devices recovered. It contained TATP, "A highly volatile material used in numerous terrorist attacks over the last decade," according to the New York Times. The motivation for the attack was apparently aimed specifically at a protest organized by a right-wing influencer, dubbed as an anti-Muslim protest outside the mayor's residence. The two young men, Amir Balat, 18, and Ibrahim Kayumi, 19, are both US citizens from Pennsylvania.

Commissioner Tisch said they both expressed support for ISIS or the Islamic State. Joining us now to break down the latest, including background on the two suspects, is John Leland, New York Times reporter who's been following the various threads of this. Hi, John. Thanks for coming on WNYC with us today.

John Leland: Oh, thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Before we get into what we know about the suspects, can you give us some context for the situation in which this played out? You do report that the attack was apparently aimed at a protest which had been billed by its organizers as, "Stop the Islamic Takeover of New York City. Stop New York City Public Muslim Prayer." Can you tell us about that protest outside of Gracie Mansion and the right-wing influencer who organized it?

John Leland: Well, this comes during the month of Ramadan, of course, and it's the sort of thing that we've started to hear more of since now current Mayor Mamdani started to do well in the primaries, an anti-Islamic rhetoric. This was started by a man named Jake Lang, who was one of the people arrested in the Capitol on January 6th of 2021, for beating officers with a baseball bat.

When he was in federal prison, he had started a militia movement that went by the acronym of NAPALM. I can't recall exactly what that stood for. A right-wing influencer, something of a loud figure. He was pardoned by President Trump, and he called this rally, and it was a small rally, maybe 22 dozen people had come to this. Then, a much larger group calling itself Run the Nazis out of New York City gathered in response to it. You can see what kind of moment we're at in New York City when there's opposing organizations called Stop the Islamic Takeover of New York and Run the Nazis out of New York City.

We're not talking about sophisticated rhetorical arguments. There's this is just passionate emotional opposition there. These two young men--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

John Leland: These two young men from Pennsylvania, from Bucks County, Pennsylvania, middle-class communities there, both, as you said, both citizens of the United States, were in some ways drawn to this. We don't exactly know how they knew about it or how they got there, even. We believe that at least we know something about one of their automobiles, but we don't know how the other one even got there.

Brian Lehrer: It seems like from everything I've heard from the mayor and the police commissioner, there's no indication that this was some kind of organized group effort to commit violence against the white supremacist protesters, that this was allegedly the act, the bombing or carrying the bombs, the act of these lone wolf individuals. Correct?

John Leland: It appears to be lone wolf individuals. People who study extremist terrorism say that's what we're seeing more of now. That a decade ago, we might have seen people who were directed by ISIS. Now they use the word inspired by ISIS. That's what these young men said they were.

Brian Lehrer: There is a video of the two suspects throwing two devices into the crowd. Were you able to review that footage or know what it showed?

John Leland: It shows one of the young men, Amir Balat, who's a high school senior in Pennsylvania, lighting an explosive device and throwing it at the others. There's another snippet of him lighting it and putting it on the ground, and then jumping over a police barrier. There are photographs, and I'm not sure if there's video of this as well, but of him after throwing the first going backward and seeing his friend Kayumi and getting the second incendiary device from him.

Brian Lehrer: Police Commissioner Tisch did say both men expressed support for ISIS. What evidence did she highlight?

John Leland: Several remarks that they made. One was asked, "Why did you do it?" He blurted out, "ISIS." Another one said that he had watched ISIS videos on his cell phone. I think one of the things to keep in mind is that there's a lot more that we don't know now than what we do know. Over the coming days, you've been involved in enough of these investigations to know that a lot of what comes out in the first couple of days turns out to be in some ways off, either completely wrong or just slightly short on nuance. I think that'll be the case with this once we know a little bit more about what's in their laptops, what's in their cell phones, we will have much greater profile of them.

Brian Lehrer: You spoke to a leader of Balat's family's congregation, Balat, one of the young men, and they told you that the congregation itself has been subject to some bigotry. Can you tell us some of what happened there?

John Leland: It was actually my colleague Kyle Bagenstose who spoke with them, a leader of the Turkish American community in that area. He said that the mosque that they belong to, that the family seems to belong to, that's Amir Balat's family, that mosque in that Turkish American community has nothing to do with these anti-American ideals. He also said that they'd received a number of threats, I guess last year, when they wanted to expand.

Brian Lehrer: At a press conference on Monday, Mayor Mamdani condemned both the anti-Muslim bigotry and the suspected act of terrorism. Let's take a listen.

Mayor Mamdani: Anti-Muslim bigotry is nothing new to me, nor is it anything new for the one million or so Muslim New Yorkers who know this city as our home. While I found this protest appalling, I will not waver in my belief that it should be allowed to happen. Ours is a free society where the right to peaceful protest is sacred. It does not belong only to those we agree with. It belongs to everyone. I will defend that right every day that I am mayor, even when those protesting say things that I abhor. Let me also be clear about something else. New York City will never tolerate violence, whether from protests or counter-protests.

Many of the counter-protesters met this display of bigotry peacefully, with a vision of a city that is welcoming to all, but a few did not. Two men, Amir Balat and Ibrahim Kayumi, traveled from Pennsylvania and attempted to bring violence to New York City. They are suspected of coming here to commit an act of terrorism.

Brian Lehrer: He ended that presser by saying, "Anyone who comes to New York City to bring violence to our streets will be held accountable in accordance with the law." This mayor gets scrutinized so closely for every word that he says, especially when it relates to anything even broadly in this category. Are you reporting politically on how the mayor's condemnation is being received?

John Leland: I'm not, but my colleagues are. We know that a number of people are upset not just by what he said, but what he didn't say, which is the word ISIS. People are incensed that he mentioned the white supremacy on the one side, but didn't mention this kind of violent Islamic extremism ideology on the other.

Brian Lehrer: Listener writes, "What strikes me about this story is a January 6th rioter who beat police with baseball bats is a terrorist. American citizens who brought bombs to hurt protesters are terrorists." [phone ringing] Forgive me for that sound. "Putting ISIS into the conversation almost deflects that these are two sets of American terrorists exercising violence on our land. Isn't that more appropriately and accurately framed as a civil war conversation? Sigh."

I don't know if this is beyond your portfolio as a reporter to comment on that, but it is an interesting observation that even if these individuals were inspired by ISIS, the person who organized the rally was already, in effect, a convicted terrorist and pardoned by President Trump, even if the charge wasn't terrorism per se, beating police with baseball bats and involved with January 6th. Fair enough to label the kids with the bombs terrorists, but that maybe seeing it in terms of ISIS is a distraction from these sort of acts of civil war, if you will, in the United States. Interesting comment from the listener. Have you given anything like that any thought?

John Leland: I think this reflects what I mentioned before, that there's a difference between acts that are directed by ISIS and acts that are inspired by "ISIS." That's the way the movement has been going in recent years. These are lone wolves. They're American adolescents who did this based on their lives in suburb of Philadelphia. This isn't international terrorism. These are domestic acts.

Brian Lehrer: A few more minutes with John Leland from the New York Times, who's been reporting and writing about the competing protests and the arrests of two individuals who allegedly brought bombs or explosive devices on one side of those protests at Gracie Mansion the other day. John, another listener writes, "Why did Jake Lang," the organizer of the anti-Muslim protest, "Why did Jake Lang bring a goat?" I have an answer that I can read from Yahoo. Which just indicates just how hatefully bigoted he is. Have you reported on the goat?

John Leland: I have not, but I'm happy to hear your answer on that, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Well, from Yahoo, "Lang also brought a goat with him to the Gracie Mansion protest, crudely describing the animal as Mamdani's second wife." Just to say how extreme the hate and bigotry was, which of course does not justify bringing bombs and throwing them into the crowd or anything like that. Just to also discuss the kind of thing that this mayor, probably uniquely in US mayoral history, is having to deal with.

John Leland: I think it says something about the moment we're in. We've had just a few weeks ago US congressman from Florida Randy Fine, said if he had the choice to have between Muslims and dogs, it wouldn't be a hard choice for him. Andrew Ogles said that Muslims don't belong in American society, and he's a congressman from Tennessee. I don't remember a time when this kind of rhetoric was out there in such acceptable or mainstream places such as US congressmen.

Brian Lehrer: NYPD statistics also show there were seven anti-Muslim hate crimes in the city in January, an increase compared to January of last year, when none were reported. Also on Monday, Deputy Commissioner for Counterterrorism Rebecca Weiner said, "This is taking place against the backdrop of social media, the dynamic of online culture. It's not limited to ISIS. it's across the ideological spectrum. Younger people mobilizing to violence. It's something we are tracking very closely," from the deputy commissioner for counterterrorism in the NYPD. Is there a sense that tensions are escalating and we're going to see more of either of these types of things in the city, then we're out of time?

John Leland: Well, we've seen a lot of intense rhetoric since the war started in Gaza, and also much more since Mayor Mamdani started to gain traction in the primaries. I don't like to predict the future or especially predict bad things, but I don't see the brakes on it right now. As to what she said, talked about the online culture and the increasingly younger people that are getting involved in these rabbit holes, I think that's something that we need to look at very closely. The people that follow domestic terrorism say we are seeing younger people getting involved in it.

You think about the online world of an 18 or 19-year-old, there's people trying to recruit you, there's people trying to demonize you, and there's the world's biggest corporations who are trying to hold your attention in an attention economy. They've found that the way to hold your attention is through conflict and outrage. I was speaking to a filmmaker the other day who was doing a piece on our divided culture, and he says that we used to say that sex sells, but now what sells is outrage. Outrage is the thing that'll keep you on these social media platforms spending more and more time and increasing the bottom line of, again, the world's biggest corporations.

Brian Lehrer: John Leland covers New York City life for the New York Times. Thank you so much for coming on.

John Leland: Thanks a lot, Brian.

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