Brigid Bergin: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin from the WNYC newsroom filling in for Brian today. Good morning again, everyone. Now we turn to an issue affecting half of the world's population, menstruation. Despite how common periods are, the topic has long been taboo and is now the center of a political attack against Kamala Harris's VP pick, Governor Tim Walz. You may have heard Republicans nicknamed him Tampon Tim shortly after his candidacy was announced. The nickname comes from a bill passed in Minnesota during Walz's tenure as governor, which required school districts to provide access to menstrual products to students in 4th through 12th grades and distributed funding for those products. Take a listen to this attack ad put out by the Make America Great Again Inc. PAC earlier this month. It really outlines their full argument against this kind of legislation and ties it to another culture war issue.

Speaker 1: What could be weirder than signing a bill into law that requires schools to stock tampons in boys' bathrooms? Or weirder than signing legislation allowing minors to receive sex change operations? Try electing the man who signed those bills, vice president of the United States. Enter chief weirdo Tim Walz. As governor of Minnesota, Walz supported legislation that endangers minors, hurts women, and puts radical ideology ahead of common sense. Now Kamala wants Walz to enforce those laws on a national scale. Tim Walz, too weird, too radical.

Brigid Bergin: Joining me now to talk about how Republicans have connected period product accessibility and anti-transgender legislation is Chabeli Carrazana, economy and childcare reporter for The 19th. Chabeli, welcome to WNYC.

Chabeli Carrazana: Thanks for having me.

Brigid Bergin: Minnesota's menstrual product bill is in the news right now because of Tim Walz's ascendance in the presidential election this year. According to your reporting, Minnesota is not the only state in the last decade to pass bills like this. Where else in the country did you find similar legislative action?

Chabeli Carrazana: Actually, this is something that started in New York City in 2016. Go back about a decade, and you've seen states, localities pass legislation to put products in public spaces and especially to put them in public schools. Since about 2020, about 90 of these bills have passed. For a long time, they were really not controversial. They were just bills to put these products in schools, help students who did not have access to products. We saw it passing in red states, blue states. It was just an easy bipartisan win. Then around 2022, '21, that's when things started to shift.

Brigid Bergin: Chabeli, Alabama, and California feel like polar opposites on the political spectrum of our country yet both states passed bills providing menstrual products to students in all bathrooms for free. Is that right?

Chabeli Carrazana: Alabama actually was one of those examples where you start to see the shift happen. In 2022, there was a bill in Alabama that was rewritten. Again, much of the legislation is basic template products in bathrooms. Then Alabama starts to change it in '22. We see them say these are going to be only for female students provided through a female school counselor, female nurse, or female teacher. That very gendered language starts to pop up. It does pass in Alabama, but then we start to see it trickle into other states.

Idaho is I think one of the best examples because it was a really contentious back and forth. In the Idaho State House in March of 2023, there was a republican sponsor of the bill, and he specifically said, "We put language in the bill to say not in boys restrooms because, in Idaho, we believe there is a difference between boys and girls." That's when you start to see these bills where this discussion was not really happening prior to that meant now this anti-trans rhetoric starts to enter the discussion about how are we going to format these bills, where exactly are these products going to go?

Even in states where the bills passed, like Connecticut is another good example, in 2023, wasn't controversial at all. Passed in Connecticut, and it specifically said at least one men's restroom in schools. Then you see a high school in Connecticut earlier this year put their dispenser in and within minutes it's vandalized, it's destroyed in the boys' bathroom, and it makes headlines. It's just been this trickle effect where states like Alabama start to have the conversation and then you see other states also take it up.

Brigid Bergin: Chabeli, I hear you talking about red states and blue states both adopting versions of these laws before you started to see them splintering along some of these significant different interpretations of who the law should be applicable to. What was the logic behind this legislation, this idea that red states and blue states across the country might agree on this issue of a need to provide these products to students?

Chabeli Carrazana: The why behind these bills, why are we seeing these bills at all is because period poverty is an issue that has long been really invisible. A lot of folks didn't understand it, didn't see where it was coming from. Then we start to get some research in around the 2017 timeframe, that starts to spotlight what is period poverty, how many people are dealing with it. There was a study of low-income women in St. Louis that found that about 64%, which is a really significant number, were unable to afford pads and tampons.

What they were doing was using cloth and rags and tissues, even children's diapers instead. Those same researchers then did a follow-up study in 2020 that was just focused on students. There they found that about half of students in St. Louis in 2020 didn't have the money to buy products at least once during the school year and as a result, about 17% of them were missing a day or more of school specifically because they didn't have the product.

Ultimately, this is an issue that is a health issue. It's an issue about access and poverty, and it's one that hasn't been addressed. The reason these states started to look at it was we wanted to retain students. We want to help them succeed in school. We are not addressing it. You are hearing school nurses say that they were paying out of pocket to buy these products for students who are coming to them seeking them. That's a really high barrier. As a student, if you remember being in high school, you're going to go all the way up to the school nurse to ask for a pad or a tampon because you don't have one. To lower that barrier, these bills started to crop up.

Brigid Bergin: Chabeli, you used a term in that answer. You said period poverty. Is that how researchers are understanding this issue? You mentioned examples in different parts of the country. Is this something that is widespread across the US, or is it concentrated in any particular area?

Chabeli Carrazana: Period poverty is the term that researchers are using to identify this issue. It is widespread. It affects folks everywhere, but it most especially affects low-income people of color, students of color. We know that they experience higher rates of poverty, already experience higher barriers in education, and to bring it back to the transgender aspect of this, transgender and non-binary people we know also experience higher rates of poverty.

When you're thinking about who is at the intersection of this issue and who is really impacted, trans, non-binary kids, Black and brown kids, those are really the kids that are going to be really needing some of this aid the most. That's really where it's concentrated the most.

Brigid Bergin: For people who are trying to pay out of pocket, how much does caring for an average menstrual cycle, five to seven days once a month, cost a person? What kind of money are we talking here?

Chabeli Carrazana: We're talking about $20, $30 a month, which might not sound like a lot to most folks, but your parents might be living paycheck to paycheck. You're very low income. That is a pretty high barrier, especially when folks are saying, "Maybe I can just make do with something else." It's also really important to remember that some of these public assistance programs SNAP, which is food stamps or WIC, which is the program for women and low-income children, they do not cover tampons or pads.

That's something that a lot of folks don't realize is you cannot use public assistance to purchase these products. The aid is not coming from anywhere ultimately. That's where schools have said, "This is a nominal amount. We can maybe step in and do this every year." Help the students out, and lower that barrier so they don't have to go to the school nurse or ask their teacher or reveal that this is something they don't have, which can be really difficult or embarrassing for students, and instead just access it in the bathroom as you would in a lot of public spaces where it is available.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, have you experienced period poverty? Has there ever been a time in your life where you couldn't access menstrual products or maybe you noticed the recent inflation on tampon prices? What's the experience been like? How did you navigate it? Are there any teachers or school nurses or administrators listening in? How do you see period poverty in your schools? What does the issue look like for your students, and what do you make of menstrual products being stocked in a boys' restroom?

For transgender and nonbinary listeners, if you use the men's room and you menstruate, you're also the subject of the story. What are you hearing when Republicans call Tim Walz Tampon Tim because he's made period products accessible to people like you? Call or text us. The number is 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. I should note that before I even made the call out, we were getting lots of texts from listeners with different perspectives on this issue.

One listener, pushing back on the conversation texted, "Putting tampons in all boys' bathrooms sounds like a giant waste of tax money. How many boys will use them for their intended purposes? Free menstrual products for girls make sense. Also, I don't blame them for calling Walz's act weird because he's calling Republicans that name himself." Chabeli, what do you make of that listener's text, and how to understand that argument.

Chabeli Carrazana: I hear you. I think Walz started using the weird afterward in response to that, although he hasn't spoken out publicly about this issue. We see some of this legislation try to be a little bit targeted. They'll say in women's bathrooms, at least one men's bathroom, a unisex bathroom. Trying to distribute the products in the best way that they can. Ultimately, that is what this has all been about. The introduction of this gendered, "Oh, we're going to put it in boys bathroom."

That wasn't the way that these bills were thought of or conceived or proposed. It wasn't like we wanted specifically to put this in boys' bathrooms. We just also want to make this accessible to all students. Trans students, non-binary students who might be accessing them in a boys' bathroom. Obviously, the majority of these products are going to go to girls' bathrooms. That's all it is. We're talking about a really small slice of students who are trans and non-binary, about 1% of students ages 13 to 17.

There's been a lot made out of the possibility that some trans or non-binary students might access these products in a boys' bathroom when the majority of this targeted effort is going to go mostly to girls in schools. The language is just an attempt I think to make it accessible to all who may need it and not leave anyone out.

Brigid Bergin: I want to go to our phones. Amanda in Brooklyn had an interesting observation about that ad from Republicans. Amanda, thanks for calling WNYC.

Amanda: Hi.Thanks for having me. I just thought it was really interesting how they specifically used a female voice actor to deliver that. Beyond just focusing on the boys' bathroom and reducing the bill to that idea, I think they're using a woman's voice to give people permission in this subconscious way to find tampons disgusting and also focusing on tampons as the period product as opposed to pads and other things. I think they're leaning into the way that tampons are stigmatized and to have a woman say, "Oh, this is a disgusting use of a menstrual product." This feels really very strategic in a pretty depressing way.

Brigid Bergin: Amanda, thanks for that call. Let's go to another caller. Let's go to Linda in East Windsor, New Jersey. Linda, I think you work in a school, is that right?

Linda: I do. I work in a high school. In the library, we have all sorts of menstrual products for kids. We serve a more wealthy population in that it's a private school, but there are scholarship students. There are kids who get caught far from their dorm and don't have access to it. It's such a nothing issue, actually. We have all-gender restrooms, and we have the products in there also, so the boys see them. It's just not an issue for the teens, for the administrators, for the teachers, for the parents who come and visit the school. I don't know why this is an issue for some people, and we've been doing it for years.

Brigid Bergin: Linda, thank you for that call, and thanks for your work at the high school. I invite folks who work in schools to call in because this kind of legislation is obviously focused on making products accessible to students. Chabeli why are students that priority here? How did teachers and school nurses respond to the passage of these bills? Certainly, we heard from a librarian who is very supportive of making sure that those products are accessible.

Chabeli Carrazana: I think what's really fascinating when you think about the inception of these bills is that a lot of them were pushed by students. You saw students going to testify in their state legislatures, bringing it to lawmakers in their states and saying, "We want this." You have example after example. Take the Minnesota example. That was a bill that was brought forward because students advocated for it. They said, "We want to see this, and we specifically want this to be inclusive. We want all of our classmates to be able to access these products if they need them."

That is why schools became the place where this was happening, from advocacy from students, and also because we had that data that specifically looked at students and school nurses and just how little aid and support they had to be able to provide this and how much of a need there was. Connect that with students missing school as a result and it became a really silly argument to say, "Why not? Let's do this."

Brigid Bergin: Let's go to Lourdes in Brooklyn. Lourdes, thanks for calling WNYC.

Lourdes: Good morning. My name is Lourdes, and I have a child of 15 and a child of 14. She is a burn survivor, and she was burned 67%. She has anxiety that you could probably not tell, but [unintelligible 00:17:44] understood. Like the person speaking before me said, they could be in any place. It could be an adult, it could be anyone that doesn't have the product necessary. Then anxiety comes in your rush for getting to a classroom. You might get in trouble because you got to take care of this issue, and the nurse may be four stories down in your building.

I just find it so antiquated that we're talking about this in 2024 when I myself remember the stigma so deeply attached to us as women. It's so painful that we need to be humiliated in such a vast format throughout this entire country and no one here can seem to work through the fact that this is juvenile to even discuss it. It just should be a given. People that do not have the income, it's heartless to do this to people.

I just wish that people would do more like what has happened in Minnesota schools. I celebrate that. I lived on a native reservation for almost 30 years as an educator. The need is so vast that no one could even think about how deeply important it is to provide this product to those that need it. I thank you for the opportunity to express myself.

Brigid Bergin: Lourdes, thank you for calling. Thank you for listening. We really appreciate your perspective. Let's go to one more caller before we do our legal ID. Paulette from Atlanta. Paulette, thanks for calling, and thanks for listening down in Georgia.

Paulette: Hi. I'm a retired former New York City public school teacher. I taught in the alternative school in Brooklyn, and I maintained all those products in my classroom for the students that needed them. I think it's just so small-minded and mean to make an issue out of this. I kept those products for my kids, and I can't tell you how much they appreciated it. It helped me to build a relationship of trust and respect and love with my kids. That's what schools need.

When students know that they're loved and cared for and everyday stuff that they need is available to them, it lowers the stress that children have. A lot of our kids have stress. It's just one less thing people have to deal with. What's the big thing about having products in the bathroom? It would be so much easier for them. I'm a female, so some students didn't have a problem asking me but if the teacher is a male, students might have difficulties approaching a male teacher to get the products. Why not just make them available to everyone and just try to be respectful of these students and their needs and try to build relationships that are caring and loving rather than every person for themselves?

Brigid Bergin: Paulette, thank you so much for that call. Thanks for your time in the classroom and thanks for tuning in now that you're down in Georgia. We appreciate it. A lot of very it sounds like sympathetic callers that we got so far. I'm wondering what issues some of what you heard raised for you Chabeli.

Chabeli Carrazana: Thank you all for sharing. I think it's really interesting to hear directly from educators about how they've seen this play out because it's what we've heard as well. I think some folks touched on some of the mental health aspects of this which I think is really important to think about. I talked to an educator in South Florida who said, "We are not serving the entire child when we don't have this product, no matter how they identify."

Certainly, if we're thinking about trans and non-binary students being specifically left out, students can be forced to out themselves before they're ready to. If they're trying to access a product that is not available anywhere for them, they can have to go ask somebody who they maybe wouldn't want to talk to about it. It could be really difficult, especially for those students. I think the mental health aspect is important.

The other thing I want to highlight is the reason we did this story. We have a series out this week at nineteenthnews.org called the toll of America's anti-trans war. What we're spotlighting here is this anti-trans rhetoric. We've seen 177 anti-trans bills become law across the country since '21. What it does is it doesn't just impact those folks, but it impacts everyone. There's this anti-current of anti-trans rhetoric that is propelling this backlash, and it is hurting in this case with the period example.

It's maybe putting a stop to some of these bills in some states like in Idaho, for example. Ultimately, that affects everybody. We're trying to spotlight what those connections are because it's not connections folks are necessarily making, but they're important to make.

Brigid Bergin: Chabeli, a lot of that anti-trans legislation that you talked about seems to be rooted in this idea of protecting children from "predators". Why are Republicans equating transgender identity with predation upon children and how does being transgender connect to having tampons and other menstrual products in men's bathrooms?

Chabeli Carrazana: It's a little bit of a false equivalency because there is not a lot to back up this predatory behavior that folks assume is happening. I thought I was interested in what Amanda said earlier about the way that that ad was framed. We have seen a lot of these lawmakers in these states passing these bills frame these measures as we're going to protect cisgender women from trans women as if trans people are a threat or we're going to pretend they don't exist at all.

That is some of the framework that is happening, but it's not really in line with reality in terms of what is actually happening with the real threat. I think a little bit of the undercurrent of what's happening there is, it's really weaponized in a way where we weren't policing these spaces before or these people before, but now it's become the center of that conversation.

Brigid Bergin: We're getting some really interesting text messages. A listener writes, "Tampons, et cetera, were taxed in all the states where I lived. Really obnoxious. Women should get a refund for all their expenses over our fertile years." I think that's an interesting policy proposal.

Chabeli Carrazana: 30 states now exempt tampons and pads from taxation for that very reason because they are considered a basic necessity and perhaps they shouldn't be taxed. 30 states have certainly said, we're not going to do that anymore.

Brigid Bergin: We have another listener who wrote, "I'm from Minnesota and I was very broke as a teen in the late '90s. My single dad couldn't afford me and my $5.15 minimum wage job didn't go very far. I had to shoplift my tampons from Target." A sense of the lengths that people have had to go to to get this product that they need. Chabelli, your report looks at period poverty bills that have been caught in the crosshairs in this turn against transgender identity. Have red states that previously passed universal period poverty bills reversed their stances because of this?

Chabeli Carrazana: I don't think we've seen that yet. No. Those that were in place prior to this becoming a controversial issue remain so and have been moving along quite well. We've seen more than half of states at this point have passed legislation requiring period products in schools. It is a fairly popular policy. It has done quite well. The most recent backlash we've seen again was that Connecticut example I gave you where it passed, although not a [unintelligible 00:26:32], but it passed and then afterward, there was backlash as it was implemented.

That bill officially goes into effect a couple days in September. We'll see what that looks like but this is all quite nascent. It's the past year or two. I think the best example I can give you of when this started to turn a little bit was in the summer of '22 when republican representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, during the tampon shortage, was on TV saying they put tampons in men's bathrooms. This is the war on women. This is why we're having a tampon shortage.

Of course, the tampon shortage at the time was a supply chain issue. It wasn't because men were buying tampons. That's when it reached this national scale of equating these two topics and since then, we've started to see the change. I expect we might see more of that in the coming years.

Brigid Bergin: Again, a lot of interesting texts. Listener writes, "There's a fantastic organization in Keensburg, New Jersey, called The She Shed at the first United Methodist Church. Every first Thursday of the month, they provide free feminine products. It's a very much appreciated service in our area to fight period poverty with no shame."

Chabeli Carrazana: I love that name, The She Shed.

Brigid Bergin: Exactly. Let's see. One last question for you. As we've been talking about legislation that bans gender-affirming medical care, trans girls from playing on girls' sports teams, bills like don't say gay and don't say period, as well as the reversals of some of the universal period products in restrooms, do you get a sense of what the campaign is pitching as a vision for society and how people who might not reflect their view of gender roles fit into it?

Chabeli Carrazana: In terms of the Trump campaign?

Brigid Bergin: Yes.

Chabeli Carrazana: We've seen very explicitly in maybe some of the project 2025 outline and certainly in the language that they've used. This ad is an example that this is something that they're specifically targeting. This issue of anti-trans sentiment and rhetoric has reached a fever point over the past two years certainly coming from conservatives, Republicans largely. We expect that to be part of this election cycle pretty heavily in a way that perhaps it hasn't been as intensely in the past.

Again, this focus is about keeping families protected or protecting women, or protecting sports. It's framed very much in that way of we are doing this to protect women from transgender folks or non-binary folks when again, it's not clear that the argument is there for why that protection is necessarily needed. Then what you see is this cascade effect where it is impacting families, it's impacting courtrooms, it's impacting women in sports. All women.

That's again, what we were trying to spotlight and we've done some reporting on this is this approach has wide-ranging implications if you're not paying attention. We'll be continuing to cover that The 19th but we can absolutely expect that to be something that we'll hear quite a bit from the Trump campaign about this election cycle.

Brigid Bergin: We're going to have to leave it there for today. My guest has been Chabelli Carrazana, economy and child care reporter for the news site The 19th. Thank you so much for coming on today and for your reporting.

Chabeli Carrazana: Thank you so much.

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