Kousha Navidar: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar, a host here at WNYC, filling in for Brian, who's on vacation this week. Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. It's a real pleasure to have you here. Coming up on today's show, the climate activist Bill McKibben will join us to talk about a New York state bill he's hoping the governor will sign into law that would require fossil fuel companies to pay into a fund to cover climate change related damages. As you can imagine, there is pushback from the powerful industry. That'll be our climate story of the week. Plus, later in the show, how to quit vaping. 1 in 20 people vape and if a previous segment Brian hosted on the topic is any indication, a lot of you who do would like help quitting. We'll have an expert here to offer some advice. We'll wrap up today's show with a conversation, sainthood, specifically when the catholic church might name a queer saint.

My guest who wrote about it for Out magazine has a suggestion and we'll talk about why that recognition would be so meaningful. First, have you heard that vice president and democratic nominee for President Kamala Harris has chosen her running mate? It's Minnesota Governor Tim Walz. As of writing, the Harris campaign has not officially announced this decision, but all the major news outlets are reporting that she has told her allies Walz is her choice.

This comes just two weeks after she herself became the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee. It's really an expedited process, unlike what we've seen in modern history. We'll turn the phones over to you listeners to give us your reactions to Tim Walz as Kamala Harris's vice presidential nominee. Progressives or those of you who identify with the left wing of the Democratic Party has Tim Walz joining the ticket solidified your support? Give us a call. We're at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692.

We also want to hear from swing voters, independents, and double-haters. What's kept you from making your decision thus far and how does Tim Walz joining the democratic ticket affect your calculus? Does this choice change your mind in any way? Call or text us now. 212-433-9692 or do we have any listeners from Minnesota right now? Anyone listening from Minnesota or with deep ties to the state, what do you think we should know about Governor Walz? Call or text us. 212-433-9692.

While we wait to get some of those calls in, let's learn some more about Tim Walz now that he may very well become vice president potentially for the next four years. Joining me now to delve into Walz's record, his strengths and weaknesses, and what we're hearing about Harris's decision making process is Jonathan Lemire, host of Way Too Early on MSNBC Politico White House bureau chief and the author of The Big Lie: Election Chaos, Political Opportunism, and the State of American Politics After 2020. Jonathan, hi. Thanks for joining us. Welcome back to WNYC. I imagine you're very busy right now.

Jonathan Lemire: It has been an unrelenting news cycle and certainly that continues this morning but I'm very glad to be here.

Kousha Navidar: We're glad to have you. Start us off with an intro to Tim Walz. We know governor of Minnesota, but he was so unknown, that he wasn't even included in original shortlist for vice president. Who is he? How did he rise so high the past couple of weeks?

Jonathan Lemire: It is a somewhat stunning selection if you back up. First of all, let's keep in mind, as you noted in your intro, what a truncated, compressed process this has been. It's only been a few weeks since President Biden announced that he would step away from the top of the ticket. Vice President Harris quickly elevated it just late last night that she officially become the nomination of securing delegates and the convention looms just two weeks from now.

She had to move quickly and what is usually a process usually done over months had to be done over a matter of weeks and days. In the last handful of days, the Harris campaign identified six candidates but really in the last 24 to 48 hours, it was clear the choice was down to two, Minnesota Governor Tim Walz and then Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. Both men had significant boosters within the party.

We can get into in a moment what went behind the decision but in terms of the person who emerged triumphant, Governor Walz, he has an everyman backstory and a folksy charm that a lot of Democrats really like. He's a former school teacher, high school football coach. He was in the National Guard. He was in Congress for a long time, made a lot of allies there, including former Speaker Nancy Pelosi, and then elected to be governor of Minnesota.

Certainly, he is known for some of his progressive policies, but a lot of his voting record, pretty mainstream Democrat. He's also a hunter. He has the midwestern sensibilities that those who are championing his cause believe will play well, particularly in states like Michigan and Wisconsin. Then lastly, I think as he has been introduced to the nation over the last week or so, what has become clear is what an effective communicator he is.

In fact, he's the one who coined and then championed the use of the word weird to describe Donald Trump, JD Vance and Republicans in the MAGA movement. That's what he did in a number of interviews. It caught on. It took on a life of its own. Now all Democrats are using it. Those who wanted him to be added to Harris ticket believe he's going to be able to do that over this next three months, spring.

Kousha Navidar: In fact, we have that clip that you're referring to right now, Walz being on Morning Joe. Here is him saying that word as you're describing. Let's listen.

Governor Tim Walz: I think this is going back to the bread and butter, getting away from this division. We do not like what has happened where we can't even go to Thanksgiving dinner with our uncle because you end up in some weird fight that is unnecessary. I think bringing back people together, it's true. These guys are just weird. They're running for he Man Women Haters Club or something. That's what they go at. That's not what people are interested in.

Kousha Navidar: You were saying Jonathan, effective communicator. We heard weird there. He was the first one to come out on the offense against Donald Trump and JD Vance with this attack. Why do you think that comment gained the traction the way it did?

Jonathan Lemire: I was part of that interview on Morning Joe, and it seemed like nearly every VP contender came through the show as an audition. We were struck by how good Walz was and weird really broke through because it's a simple word that everyone can understand and wrap their heads around. In many ways, some of the terms the Democrats have been using to describe Trump and his movement, like threats to democracy, so completely valid, are these lofty, felt disconnected from Americans' everyday lives.

Those around Walz, this wasn't pre planned, but they feel like he just had a simple connection with what a lot of people can understand and relate to. A lot of these hyper online cultural issues that Trump and Vance are championing including Vance with the childless cat lady's remark just to name one, that weird was a word that really worked. I think that is also what Democrats see as an opportunity here. Is that Vance's rollout over these last couple weeks has been shaky, to say the least.

They feel like Walz is someone who can go head-to-head with him. We assume eventually they'll debate. He will go take them on on the campaign trail and they feel like he could be a good and effective contract. We should note pressure now is on Walz to have a better rollout than Vance did.

Kousha Navidar: That pressure to have that contrast like you're saying. Let's go to a couple callers. We have Reed in Staten Island. Reed, hi. Welcome to the show. How do you feel about this election?

Reed: Hi, Kousha. Long time. I really want to echo just everything the speaker said. I'm 28. I'm a very true blue voter and was just not excited at all for this matchup and horrified at the debate. I want to say the weird branding, I think is the best thing, the best comms line that has come out of Democratic Party since the Shepherd Ferry Hope poster in 2008. It's really an amazing reframe as your caller is saying, and really calls out the Republicans for what they are. They said the threat to democracy. We've been hearing that for so long. It's no less true, but it's starting to get boring, and weird is a much better reframing of it.

Kousha Navidar: Reed, you said at the beginning long time. Did you call yesterday?

Reed: I did call yesterday.

Kousha Navidar: Thanks so much. I thought that I recognized you. Thanks for calling. Really appreciate that. Reed there saying that weird line is one of the best comms lines to come out of the Democratic Party in a while. Let's go to somebody who might have a different view on this. We have Nick from [unintelligible 00:09:17]. Hi, Nick. Welcome to the show.

Nick: Hi, Kousha. How are you doing? I personally wanted Mark Kelly from Arizona, but I'd like to know from Jonathan, since he's a colleague of Joe Scarborough. I know Joe Scarborough had been arguing that Josh Shapiro was the best choice. I'd like to know what Joe Scarborough's reaction was to the choice of Tim Walz over Josh Shapiro.

Kousha Navidar: Nick, thanks for the call. Jonathan, any comment there?

Jonathan Lemire: Joe just delivered it on air a short time ago. He made it clear that Josh Shapiro was his favorite choice. He does believe it. Let's not just talk about Joe Scarborough. Let's talk about any people who are backing Shapiro. This is a tough decision to make. Usually running mates are actually not done with geography in mind. If you go through history, it's pretty rare that a running mate is selected and actually makes a difference on a ticket by pulling an estate.

Lyndon Johnson famously did for John Kennedy in 1960. He helped win Texas, his home state, which helped give Kennedy the White House. Traditionally, that's not always into the calculation. In this case, it really seemed like it was going to be, because any electoral map for a Democrat candidate to win the White House probably needs to include Pennsylvania. Shapiro is very popular in Pennsylvania. He's writing north of 60%.

There was a sense that if you simply take Shapiro and put Pennsylvania in your column, then you have lots of options to find the last couple of states you need to win. Polls do suggest that once Harris entered the race, Biden dropped out, that she basically pulled even with Trump in Pennsylvania and all the other battleground states too. I think this is a pick as a sign of confidence that she can win some of the others. She doesn't have to rely on Shapiro.

The downside to Shapiro, the risks for Shapiro, and there was a pretty aggressive whisper campaign against him in recent days, including from some in his own state, including some associated with Senator Federman, who was clashed with the governor, who do worry that he was maybe too moderate, that he was not where the party is. Let's be clear, I think some of these attacks probably were anti-semitic, and they were really painting him as too close of an ally to Israel.

Now, Governor Shapiro's stance on the war in Gaza really isn't very different than any of the other would-be running mates. There is an element of unfairness to that perception but it did exist. There were worries in the democratic party that Shapiro might turn off some of the younger progressive voters who had been reluctant to back Biden were surging towards Harris, and the fear of Shapiro might turn them off again. That was part of the thinking.

I'm also told that some of this for the vice president was simply about being simpatico in terms of managerial style, in terms of personality, that she and Walz really got along. Similar senses of humor and the like. You want to be comfortable with your governing partner.

Kousha Navidar: Was it difficult do you think for VP Harris currently to get a sense of that chemistry in such a short amount of time?

Jonathan Lemire: No question. She knew Shapiro more than she knew Walz going into this process. Both had served as attorney general in the past, but they spent time together. They spent something either on the trail in the White House over the years, and they had a meeting on Sunday at the vice president's residence here in Washington at the Naval Observatory. Of course, personal chemistry doesn't matter much if you don't win. There are some in the party who thought that Shapiro would have been a more direct, almost calculated choice.

Hey, put Pennsylvania in your column. It appears that the Harris campaign thinks that perhaps that wasn't a guarantee or that they feel like they could win that state without him and they like what Walz brings to the ticket. Though Minnesota not a battleground state, it's battleground state adjacent Wisconsin, Michigan and they think that he's going to play really well in some other states he needs to win and potentially in western Pennsylvania as well.

Kousha Navidar: You mentioned younger voters here. We just had one text come through at least that says "Registering myself as one more millennial voter who will now vote for the democratic ticket in November. I would have voted third party or stayed home had it been Shapiro." I want to make sure that we go into this idea of communication, specifically when we're talking about voters in the midwest or more rural areas throughout the country because like you said Jonathan, this is part of Walz's appeal, his hopeful impact. Where do those bona fides stem from for him to be able to connect with those voters?

Jonathan Lemire: It is his small town background, the fact that he is a hunter, the fact that he was a football coach and a teacher, that he speaks their language. He has a very charming social media presence in which he does home improvement projects and such. He is someone who I think a lot of Americans will get to know and like but it is a risky pick here, though. I think the way it was described to me is Shapiro is higher risk, higher reward. The higher reward being if he delivers you Pennsylvania, that's probably all you really need.

The risk is as just described. There were things there about they were fearful of backlash to him fair or not. Walz in some ways is a safer pick and I think he does help with progressives. The issue is, does he expand the map at all? Is he going to win over other votes? It should be noted, and my colleague Steve Kornacki had an excellent breakdown of the Minnesota governor's race on Morning Joe yesterday and noted that despite Walz's reputation for appealing to rural voters, he really didn't make that much of a difference.

He ran the same as Joe Biden did in Minnesota with white rural voters. He didn't really cut into the deficits there that you might have thought and that the Harrison certainly hopes that he will.

Kousha Navidar: I'm looking at the clock. I know we got to get you out of here but before you go, I'm wondering, is Walz progressive in a way that could end up reaching those who are interested in Trump's populist agenda?

Jonathan Lemire: It's possible. I think that he can have that conversation in a way that perhaps Vice President Harris couldn't. Now, we're already seeing the attack lines from Republicans. They're declaring the two of them hyper liberal. They're blaming the 2020 protests in Minnesota after the George Floyd killing there on the governor, when in actuality he actually did push to have the National Guard step in and bring it to an end after things got violent.

We're seeing the attack lines and it's interesting. This is a pick that seems to be splitting both Republicans and Democrats. There are some Republicans I've heard from in the last hour who are really relieved because they thought Shapiro would just win Pennsylvania and make their race harder. There are others who are really worried that they think that Walz is a very appealing candidate who can deliver some Midwest states who's going to be harder to attack than Shapiro.

Then among Democrats, it's a similar divide. I think some progressives very, very happy, some more moderate Democrats who are looking at the electoral map a little more worried. I think we're now going to see as these next couple of weeks, starting tonight in Philadelphia, where Walz will appear with Harris and Shapiro, by the way, still expected to speak, introduce them and endorse them. He's still expected to help on the campaign trail and then a battleground state tour and then heading towards the convention to introduce Tim Walz to America and to smake the argument that he is the effective governing partner for Vice President Harris as she eyes the White House.

Kousha Navidar: We'll have to leave it there for today. I want to thank you, Jonathan Lemire, for giving us some time on what is obviously a very busy news day. Jonathan is the host of Way Too Early on MSNBC, Politico White House bureau chief, and the author of The Big Lie: Election Chaos, Political Opportunism, and the State of American Politics After 2020 . Jonathan, thank you.

Jonathan Lemire: Thank you.

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