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Amina Srna: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Amina Srna, a producer for the Brian Lehrer show, filling in for Brian today. Good morning, everyone. Coming up on today's show, an update on the mayoral primary election, including on the candidates' fundraising halls from the city's campaign finance board. Former Governor Andrew Cuomo, the frontrunner, according to many polls, did not receive any matching funds, while State Assembly member Zohran Mamdani, his closest Challenger, scored almost $4 million. We'll unpack what that might mean for the race with WNYC and Gothamist reporters Liz Kim and Brigid Bergin. Plus, later in the show, we'll talk about the legal and ethical considerations of embryos that are made in the in vitro fertilization process. IVF is a big business now and some critics say it's under-regulated. An embryo storage is personal, but it's also political. We'll get into that with your calls and journalist Anna Louie Sussman, who is writing about this for The New York Times. We'll wrap today's show with some news you can use. This one is for you who are suffering from spring allergies. If you would like to enjoy the flowering trees around town but can't deal with the sneezing, stick around for our guests who is a doctor and allergist.

First, on Monday, El Salvador's President Nayib Bukele said he would not send back a Salvadoran migrant whom the Trump administration wrongly deported from Maryland last month without due process. The US Supreme Court has unanimously determined the government must facilitate the release of the man named Kilmar Abrego Garcia from the El Salvador prison where he's being held, but so far, the Justice Department has not cooperated.

Abrego Garcia's case is alarming legal scholars who say it could have troubling implications. If the Trump administration flouts court orders, they speculate anyone, regardless of citizenship, could be sent to a foreign prison without legal recourse. Media outlets suggest the friction between the judicial and executive branch is teetering on the edge of a constitutional crisis. Trump, caught speaking on a hot mic before his press conference with Bukele on Monday, said he already plans to send more people to El Salvador, including US citizens. Take a listen.

Donald Trump: The homegrown criminals are next. I said homegrowns are next. The homegrowns, you got to build about five more places.

Speaker 3: Yes, that's fair.

[laughter]

Donald Trump: It's not big enough.

Amina Srna: Trump saying, "I said the homegrowns are next. The homegrowns, you got to build about five more places. It's not big enough." In total, the Trump administration has deported over 230 Venezuelan men to that mega prison in El Salvador, claiming that they are all members of a gang. A New York Times investigation that looked into the claims found scant evidence. Joining us now with the latest is Hamed Aleaziz, reporter covering the Department of Homeland Security and Immigration Policy for The New York Times. Welcome to WNYC, Hamed.

Hamed Aleaziz: Thank you for having me.

Amina Srna: Listeners, we can take some of your comments, questions, concerns about this case or Trump's deportation agenda broadly. Give us a call now at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can also text that number. Hamed, before we get into your reporting, can you remind listeners who is Kilmar Abrego Garcia, and what did the Trump administration accuse him of?

Hamed Aleaziz: Definitely. He's a man who lived in Maryland. He has a US citizen wife and three children. Most consequentially, he was protected by an immigration judge from deportation to El Salvador through something called withholding of removal. This very specific form of protection makes it so somebody cannot be removed to their home country because they fear persecution.

In this case, his home country is El Salvador, and he was deported regardless of that protection. That now is the crux of the argument here, which is was this deportation made an error? The government has previously said yes, and the federal courts have found yes, but the Trump administration is now saying, no, he was not.

Amina Srna: Last week, the Supreme Court backed a lower court in requiring the Trump administration to facilitate Abrego Garcia's release, but on Sunday, Trump officials said the ruling only meant that Abrego Garcia should be allowed to return, should he be released from El Salvador. Can you tell us a bit more about the standoff between Trump and the courts?

Hamed Aleaziz: Definitely. Something that's happened here in the last couple days is that the Supreme Court left some room for understanding when it came to their order. They said, "Yes, facilitate this return of this man," but they also said that the federal court judge should clarify what the judge meant by the fact that Mr. Abrego Garcia, that ICE need to effectuate his return to the United States. They said, in clarifying that, they also need to have deference to the executive powers handling of foreign affairs.

The Trump administration has taken that to mean, "Sure, if he shows up at a port of entry or an airport in America, then we will let him in, but it does not mean that we need to go and get him from the prison in El Salvador." Certainly it makes me think that moving forward, this issue potentially could return to the Supreme Court.

Amina Srna: As I said in the intro, El Salvador's president, Nayib Bukele met with the Trump administration this week at the White House, and he seemed to side with Trump, saying he doesn't have the authority to release Abrego Garcia. Can you tell us a bit about the argument Bukele is making?

Hamed Aleaziz: Well, first of all, he says-- when they asked him, "Can you return Mr. Abrego Garcia to the United States?" He was saying, "How could I do that? How could I smuggle somebody into the United States?" framing it as if he'd be smuggling this individual into America. Then here was this question of, "Well, could you just release him into El Salvador?" Bukele says, "No, we've brought down our crime rate and you want us to return to high crime rates by releasing dangerous people or terrorist criminals. No, I won't do that." He says he will not do that. It seems Bukele is pretty firm on this idea of Abrego Garcia remaining in custody.

Amina Srna: Let's zoom out a bit. The Trump administration is conducting their deportation campaign under the guise of the Alien Enemies Act. For listeners who aren't familiar or have heard it on the news in passing, maybe, can you explain that legal path and what power it does and does not give the US government?

Hamed Aleaziz: Definitely. The Alien Enemies act is something that was rarely used before, generally used before in wartime. It basically allows the government to rapidly deport somebody that is deemed an alien enemy. There's little to no due process, and it allows this administration, which is really striving to hit high numbers of deportations, the ability to move quickly, to deport people quickly.

The Supreme Court, however, said that these individuals should have the right to challenge the government's assertion that they are alien enemies, to challenge their removal from the United States. That's something that's continuing to play out on the ground, but that's the crux of it. It just allows for a quicker process and allows for the Trump administration to avoid the long process of normal deportations, which include appeals, which include all kinds of maneuvers. People can file challenges in federal court. There's a lot of potential delays, and those delays cause a problem when you're trying to hit high numbers of deportations.

Amina Srna: Here we're getting a couple of text messages, questions and comments, a few listeners pretty disturbed by the laughing that we heard in the Trump clip in the intro that we played. One listener asks, "Any thoughts? This informant was specifically targeted. He had specific guarantee exchange for his information about gangs not to be returned," I believe referring to Abrego Garcia. Are you familiar with that? Was he an informant?

Hamed Aleaziz: I'm not quite sure what that reference is to, but, but again, the immigration judge specifically granted him withholding of removal, which says he should not have been deported under that protection to El Salvador. The Trump administration in recent days has framed that removal as appropriate because they say, "Well, now he shouldn't have had that benefit because he is a member, allegedly, of MS-13, which the President has deemed a terrorist group in recent weeks. That protection is not really relevant here." That is the argument they are now making.

Whereas before in federal court filings, not only did an ICE official say that his removal was an administrative error, but this was also referenced in DOJ filings as well.

Amina Srna: Listeners, we have a few lines open for you. We can take your comments or questions on this case in particular or Trump's deportation agenda broadly. 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can also text that number.

Hamed, in dozens of interviews that you and your colleagues conducted, you write, "Family members said that once the men were detained-" speaking broadly of the over 230 Venezuelan men in El Salvador, "-US officials focused on their tattoos and in some cases their clothing." Can you talk a bit more about the evidence the Trump administration claims to have that these men were gang members?

Hamed Aleaziz: We saw in federal court filings that the government was using this type of-- something called Alien Enemy Validation Guide, basically this form that provided immigration officials a way to use a point system to identify members of TdA. There were different factors that could add up to the number of points that would make someone a validated member of TdA. Those included tattoos, certain types of clothing. This is the way they are framing people as members of TdA. The tattoos are a big part of it, it seems.

Amina Srna: One listener texts, "If we cannot get folks out of El Salvador, we should not be using El Salvador. Using a foreign prison should not happen. How do we stop that?" All 238 men will spend at least a year in El Salvador's Terrorism Confinement Center, I saw from your reporting. Media outlets have covered the conditions at that complex, but for listeners who aren't familiar what do we know about it?

Hamed Aleaziz: Well, it's a massive prison. It's a maximum security prison. This is a place where people don't really have a chance to contest their allegations against them. The El Salvador regime has been criticized by human rights activists as overreaching on arresting people and throwing them into this massive prison complex, but I think it's a form of deterrence that this administration is using.

We saw the DHS secretary visit this very prison and do a video inside of the prison telling people, "Don't come into our country illegally," that there are consequences. One of the consequences potentially is ending up in this prison. People can end up in Guantanamo. The message is clear from this administration, which is, "Don't come and you could potentially end up in this prison or somewhere else."

Amina Srna: Let's take a caller. Let's go to Jean in Highland Park. Hi, Jean, you're on WNYC.

Jean: Hello. I'm just concerned that a Trump official spokesperson, I'm sorry, I don't know who it was, said a couple days ago, "Well, they're citizens of El Salvador now." They never took an oath of office to become a citizen in El Salvador. As far as I know, somebody cannot be forced to become a citizen of another country. That's my comment.

Amina Srna: Thank you so much for your call, Jean. Hamed, any reflection there? Did you hear that come across your wires?

Hamed Aleaziz: I think that one thing that's happening right now is the administration is really being critical when media refers to Mr. Abrego Garcia as a Maryland man. This has become a point of contention, and they're saying, "No, he's not a Maryland man. He's from El Salvador. Don't refer to him as a Maryland man." This has been tweeted by the White House senior official, Stephen Miller, that, that he's not a Maryland man.

That's part of their argument here, is that this person is not connected to the fabric of the United States, whereas his family and people around him obviously counter that and say, "No, this is somebody who has deep roots in America and is, in fact, a Maryland man."

Amina Srna: Listener texts, "Please ask your guest about Andry José Hernández Romero, the gay Venezuelan hairdresser who was here on asylum. Is any action being taken to get him back?" Are you familiar with his story?

Hamed Aleaziz: Sorry. Could you repeat that again?

Amina Srna: It is the Venezuelan hairdresser that was getting some media coverage a couple of weeks ago.

Hamed Aleaziz: Right. He's caught up with the other individuals as well. I think this is part of the ongoing litigation. Whatever happens with Mr. Abrego Garcia, if there's an individual where the government has admitted they wrongfully deported him and they are not bringing him back, it certainly makes it seem like the other individuals-- that the ability for them to return to the United States, that that'll be a long road to climb.

Amina Srna: Listener texts, "We are paying lots of money to El Salvador to do this. Hamed, what is in it for El Salvador?"

Hamed Aleaziz: Well, I think beyond money, it allows Bukele, the president of El Salvador to have a global platform. He was at the White House the other day. He had a very well covered press event with President Trump. That just grows his image across the world. He is somebody who has become quite popular in El Salvador and is almost seeming to be a symbol in the region of a new type of leader.

This is somebody who wants to have more influence. What better way to do that than to have good relations with the Trump administration? He did the same thing during the first Trump administration as well. He was one of the few countries to agree to take third country nationals and allow them to come to his country back during the first Trump administration. A lot of this is a continuation of what happened during that first administration.

Amina Srna: Let's go to another call. Michael in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Michael.

Michael: Oh, hey. Thank you for taking the call. Has anybody spoken to the man in Maryland? What if he's dead? Could the reason be they don't want to send him back, or they're doing this whole thing because he's dead and they don't want to admit it? Again, has anybody spoken to him, his lawyer, the embassy, anybody?

Amina Srna: Thank you so much for your call, Michael. Hamed, I saw one of your colleagues this morning reporting that several lawyers were not actually able to get in touch with their clients down in El Salvador. Are you aware?

Hamed Aleaziz: The contact in a prison like that is going to be incredibly difficult, but given the fact that this is a very well noted case, and his case has become very, very-- it's become a national story that the government is keeping tabs on Mr. Abrego Garcia. They believe that he's in that prison right now.

Amina Srna: You recently wrote about how this isn't the first time that Trump has mistakenly deported someone. During his first term in 2018, the Trump administration deported an Iraqi immigrant who had been living in the United States for 25 years at that point. Can you tell us a bit more about that story and crucially, how the administration responded to its error back then?

Hamed Aleaziz: Definitely. Just to really set the scene, this was an individual, his name was Muneer Subaihani. He was a refugee to the United States who arrived in the early '90s and got caught up in the criminal justice system, had a deportation order. During 2017, during that time, ICE was really targeting individuals from Iraq and picking them up and hoping to deport them to Iraq quite quickly.

As that process took shape and after ICE had rounded up people, including Mr. Subaihani, a federal court judge blocked all those deportations, including for Mr. Subaihani, but about a year later or less than a year later, he was actually deported in violation of that court order to Iraq. At the time, ICE affirmatively went to the federal court and told the judge everything that happened. They said, "Look, this individual was deported in violation of your order. We're trying to find him. We're trying to find contact information for him." That set off this months'-long odyssey to track him down.

ICE was quite involved during this whole time where they were calling the US State Department in Iraq, they were interacting with the embassy in Iraq, Iraqi officials, they were working with the ACLU to bring Mr. Subaihani back. Ultimately, he did come back. This process was very different than what we're seeing right now. Importantly, this is somebody who the US government had no idea initially where he was. In the context of Mr. Abrego Garcia, they know exactly where he is. Like I said earlier, US officials have said he's alive and secure in that prison. They know where he is. it's much different than the situation of Mr. Subaihani, but a different result as well.

Amina Srna: We're going to head to a brief break right now, but we can take more of your calls at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Stay with us.

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Amina Srna: This is the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Amina Srna filling in for Brian today. My guest is New York Times immigration policy reporter, Hamed Aleaziz. Let's go to a call. Barry in Westchester is making a point that we are getting a lot through our text messages. Hi, Barry, you're on WNYC.

Barry: Is this better?

Amina Srna: You're sounding good to me.

Barry: Okay. Thank you.

Amina Srna: Thanks for your call. What would you like to say?

Barry: I'd like to call out that camp in El Salvador as a concentration camp, just like the camps in Germany that were set up in Poland. There's little difference here and the public needs to know that and understand it. That's all I really have to say.

Amina Srna: Thank you so much for your call, Barry. Hamed, I will point out we're getting a lot of texts to this effect. What are your thoughts?

Hamed Aleaziz: It feels like this story, amongst the onslaught of immigration policies that have come from this administration since day 1, is one of a few that's really broken through. I think in part it's because there's a question about due process. A lot of Americans are concerned about the lack of due process in this situation and the implications of that, more broadly. I think that's why potentially it's resonating in a way that other things haven't resonated. You look at other policies like the ban on refugees that took place on day 1 or the near total ban of entry at the Southern border. This is one of the stories unlike those that's really cut through.

Amina Srna: Related to that point, a listener texts, "What are the repercussions or punishments to Trump and his administration if they do not comply with the Supreme Court order to return the deported Maryland man? Can you arrest the president for not abiding by the court's orders? If not, then what's the point of having a Supreme Court?" Hamed, I know you're an immigration reporter and not a legal eagle, but generally with the sources that you're speaking to, what are people saying?

Hamed Aleaziz: What's really interesting is if you look at the latest update in federal court, the judge in that Abrego Garcia case has taken a different tact and actually last night, said that they would be setting up a schedule in which the top officials in the government would be deposed, that there would be discovery in getting documents to just suss out what the government has been doing to try to get Mr. Abrego Garcia to the United States.

That is a huge development because now the judge and the lawyers from Mr. Abrego Garcia will have a chance to see underneath the hood, be able to see what actually is happening within the US Government in this case, whether or not they are actively complying with the orders. Oftentimes when those types of emails come out, there's a lot more information than one expects, and hopefully that'll be public information as well. Officially, as a reporter, that would be really interesting to read and to see, but that's a new development and a really serious one for this administration.

Amina Srna: Let's pivot to detention centers in this country. You recently reported that the Department of Homeland Security's Immigration and Customs Enforcement, ICE, called for contractors to submit proposals to provide new detention facilities and related administrative services worth as much as $45 billion over the next two years. Can you tell us a bit more about this effort and just put its scope into context for us?

Hamed Aleaziz: Definitely. This would be a massive scaling-up of immigration detention unlike anything seen before in the United States. Just to give some context, last year DHS allocated about $3 billion for ICE custody. You would imagine $45 billion over the next two years, that would be a pretty big increase.

It's important to note here that ICE detention is a key element of deportation. This administration, including the border czar, Tom Homan, has repeatedly said that the only way for them to reach the high number of deportations that President Trump has promised is to get more detention capacity. They need detention capacity because that is the way they can effectuate removals.

You pick up immigrants, you put them into detention facilities, you hold them for a period of time, and you remove them from there to their home country or potentially to a third country. That detention apparatus is a key part of the deportation system, and that is really what's guiding this process of their hope to expand dramatically the immigration detention system in the United States.

Amina Srna: You're right. Typically, detention contracts go through a lengthy process for each facility, and ICE specifies the type, size, and location, but this latest request is what is known as a bulk or blanket purchase agreement. What does that mean?

Hamed Aleaziz: It basically creates a Rolodex of every detention facility in all services and then allows ICE to place individual orders as more funding comes through. What this means, basically, is just an easier way for the government to rapidly build up the detention capacity, do it quickly, and get the funding as they're trying to get through Congress and through other means.

Amina Srna: Let's go to another caller. Roger in Greenwich Village. Hi, you're on WNYC.

Roger: I am a lawyer, and I have read the Supreme Court decision in the Garcia case. All the media except Andrew Weissman on Lawrence O'Donnell last night are missing the language from the Supreme Court's order. It does not say, "Facilitate his return to the United States." It says, "Facilitate his release from custody in El Salvador." I'm quoting the Supreme Court order.

That's a huge difference. It has nothing to do with supplying a plane. It means facilitated his release from custody. I'm quoting the Supreme Court. Everybody should pay attention to that. The debate about facilitate is misguided with leaving out the words "release" from custody. That's what I want to say, and have your guests deal with and somebody finally deal with in the television and radio media.

Amina Srna: Thank you so much for your call, Roger. Hamed, I was reading your colleague's reporting this morning, and it seemed that short of a tremendous amount of political pressure, it doesn't seem that the Trump administration and the DOJ is being responsive to the court order at all.

Hamed Aleaziz: Look, I think this comes down to, again, the Supreme Court's ruling was not quite as direct and specific as some people may have wanted. That room, that nuance that it allowed, the Trump administration is taking advantage of. I think that is something that ultimately the federal court judge is working through. I wouldn't be surprised if it returned to the Supreme Court because of that contention between the Trump administration and his lawyers. This is something where it seems like the Supreme Court potentially could be more clear on what exactly they're looking for. There seems to be some room there.

Amina Srna: You had spoken about the massive scaling-up of detention centers in this country as a pretext to deportation. I just want to underscore a little bit more of your recent reporting on these facilities. You had written, "Facilities under the contract will not have to meet the standards for services and detainee care that ICE has typically set for large detention providers." Can you tell us more broadly what are the standards for even the current detention facilities? My understanding is that they generally operate under less rigorous standards than, for example, the prison system in the United States.

Hamed Aleaziz: Certain facilities, ICE facilities, they need to have levels of medical care, mental health services, access to legal rights services. These are key elements and these are areas where advocates and attorneys and immigrants themselves will oftentimes criticize and challenge the detention system for not having or not meeting the federal detention standards or guidelines set by the US government. In this case, it seems like they can operate under a less rigorous standard, usually for contracts that the federal government sets with local jails and prisons.

Amina Srna: Despite the speed and scale of this latest ramp-up, you note that the private detention contractors were most likely not caught off guard. How were these private companies already gearing up.

Hamed Aleaziz: Well, I believe some officials have said that they are in touch with the Trump administration, that they are well aware of what the Trump administration is looking for. This is something that was referred to in a investor call earlier this year that the head of one of these companies said that they were in daily communication with the administration. This is something where business and the detention sector is in constant contact with the Trump administration.

Amina Srna: Related question, I didn't see this in your reporting, but you have your eye on it. Can you ask your guest about the claims members of Trump's team make about immigrant non-citizens taking advantage of Social Security? How is that even possible?

Hamed Aleaziz: Well, this is something where the Trump administration, as part of their effort to crack down on undocumented immigrants, they have put a certain number of people, about 6,000 people, on something called a death list, a death master file, which makes it basically so that the individuals can no longer use financial services like bank accounts and credit cards. Their Social Security numbers are stripped. These are Social Security numbers that these individuals lawfully obtained. It seems to be a broader effort to try to force people to leave the country, to make them more uncomfortable in the United States and have them leave voluntarily as opposed to ICE targeting them for removal.

Again, the Trump administration is trying to hit really high deportation numbers. Given the limited resources that the federal government has, the only way they're going to reach those numbers is if they can convince people, a large amount of people, to self deport. This is just one of those efforts as to try to cut them off from their financial lives.

Amina Srna: Self deport, I think in the beginning of our conversation you were talking about a campaign of fear, right?

Hamed Aleaziz: Definitely. This is what the administration has been doing, is saying that ICE is coming to communities, is going to be conducting large scale operations, is going to be picking up people who have been ordered removed or other individuals who are targeted for potential criminal issues, but also as part of that operation, if you're around those people that we're targeting and you are undocumented, you will be swept up as well.

It's a message to communities that ICE is coming and they're going to be aggressive. They now have the full backing of the federal government, which means that agents from the FBI, from ATF, from the DEA and elsewhere, will be helping them, serving as a force multiplier. We're seeing these operations and the number of agencies involved. I haven't seen that before in my time covering immigration. It's a real serious effort to send a clear message to undocumented immigrants, which is, as high level officials have said in the administration, they should feel uncomfortable.

Amina Srna: Wow. That's all the time we have for today. My guest has been Hamed Aleaziz, a reporter covering the Department of Homeland Security and immigration policy for The New York Times. Hamed, thank you so much for your reporting and thanks for coming on the show.

Hamed Aleaziz: Thanks for having me.

 

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