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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. If you follow the business news, you probably know the headlines from Friday's jobs numbers for the month of May. The report comes out on the first Friday of each month to report on the previous month. For May, the headlines on Friday were pretty bullish. The US economy created more jobs than most economists expected. More than 272,000 jobs added last month net. The numbers show that wage growth outpaced inflation, 4.1% average wage growth over the last year compared to inflation in the mid-threes.

Add to this that a recent Harris Poll found that three in five Americans incorrectly believe we're in a recession. People aren't feeling the greatness all that much. There's a disconnect between how well the economy is doing and how people are feeling about their own financial situations. This cism has pundits and politicians scratching their heads to some degree. At the same time, that relatively good news of the moment and people's misperception about a recession can also obscure a more troubling picture for many Americans who are in America's middle class.

Our guest now is part of the National True Cost of Living Coalition, founded this year by two anti-poverty and advocacy organizations, the Federation of Protestant Welfare Agencies, and the Community Service Society of New York. Their mission, "Ensuring that true economic security is a possibility for all Americans." They've come out with a new national poll of their own finding that 65% of Americans often considered middle class, which they define as those earning more than 200% of the federal poverty level are struggling financially today, and don't expect that to change for the remainder of their lives.

Pretty depressing sentiment for a majority of middle-class Americans. Joining me now to talk about the results of their poll and the coalition's efforts to come up with a true cost of living in the United States and policies to address it is Jennifer Jones Austin, CEO of the Federation of Protestant Welfare Agencies, and co-chair now of the National True Cost of Living Coalition. Ms. Jones Austin, always good to have you on the show. Welcome back to WNYC.

Jennifer Jones Austin: Always good to be here with you, Brian, and very much appreciate your centering on these issues. I was listening for a few minutes to the conversation you just had. What we're about to talk about builds on that conversation. I'm glad to be here.

Brian Lehrer: What question did you ask and what answer did you receive?

Jennifer Jones Austin: As I listened to him, I kept thinking about the pain that he feels, the caller, the pain that he feels, and how he's attaching it--

Brian Lehrer: For people who didn't hear that segment, I'll just say it was a caller named Duke from Jersey City, who is having trouble finding work right now as a Uber Eats or DoorDash delivery person. Is that the caller you're talking about?

Jennifer Jones Austin: That's exactly right. I was listening to him talk about how he feels his troubles began when we began seeing more migrants in the Tri-State area. For me, I couldn't help but think, yes, I appreciate the point that he's making, but his issues and his challenges are far greater than what is happening with migrants coming to the Tri-State area. It really centers in the inability for many Americans to achieve economic security, to be able to weather challenges that present should they lose a job.

The income that they're able to bring in the home fall short for a variety of reasons that it's not just one thing in particular, but really at the core, it's that we are not as a nation, centering on economic security for all Americans.

Brian Lehrer: In your poll, you found that 65% of Americans who you're defining as middle class, which means they make at least twice the federal poverty rate are financially struggling. I'm going to ask you to describe what financially struggling means in the way that the poll teased it out and also 200% of the federal poverty level. What's that number? Who are you defining as the bottom of the middle class?

Jennifer Jones Austin: The federal poverty level is the official poverty measure for the nation. There's a report that comes out annually that says, "Here's what the numbers are with respect to the threshold for poverty." For one individual, that number right now, no matter where you live in this nation, is $15,060. Whether you live in Brooklyn, New York, or you live in Wichita, Kansas, if you are making $15,060, according to the federal government, you are at the level of where we'd say you are right above the poverty threshold.

For a family of four, that could be two adults, two children, that's $30,000.

When we say that someone is at above 200% of the federal poverty level, let's say for a family of four, that would be that the family is bringing in $60,000 or more. For an individual, it would be a little better than $30,000. What this poll that we conducted found, it was a national poll of more than 2,500 people, statistically significant. We poll people in the Northeast, the Sun Belt, the Rust Belt, we poll people who declare themselves independent, Democrat, GOP-affiliated. What they came back with is this number that's 65% middle-income Americans, those above the 200% poverty level say they're struggling financially.

Interestingly, what they're saying is about 63% of all Americans now are going to go beyond middle-income and include low-income and even higher-income. 63% are saying they're living comfortably, yet 59% are saying they're struggling financially. By struggling financially, what they're talking about is they're worrying about paying their bills. They're worrying about planning for their future. They're worried that they cannot live fully in their lives. What I mean by that is that do you know, they can't afford to take a vacation. They can't afford to put their children in extracurricular programs.

They're saying that they don't have enough to plan for an emergency, that they struggle with different types of debt, student debt, mortgage debt, credit card debt. Interestingly, what they're saying is that many of them, especially middle-income Americans, "I'm not worried about whether or not I'm paying my housing costs right now or my food costs, but I don't know should something happen tomorrow, should I lose my job? I don't know. Even if I keep my job, can I pay for my child's college education? Can I save for retirement and feel confident that I'll be able to live in retirement comfortably, retire at a reasonable age?"

The concern is not in the main for middle-income Americans, whether or not they're going to keep a roof over their head today, they're going to have a roof over their head tonight, but what's going to happen to my family and me tomorrow? That's because so much of what we do as a nation is centered only on basic needs as though middle-income Americans and lower-income Americans should not be economically secure, should not feel comfortable, and earn enough income, and have resources that make sure that they can weather economic storms.

One of the points, I'll say quickly that you may have read about is that 40% of all Americans, according to this poll, are saying that they're unable to plan beyond their next paycheck. 46% of all Americans are saying they don't have $500 saved for a rainy day. That's why we see this disconnect between the economy looks good, we've got job growth, wages are up, but yet Americans are feeling like we're in a recession, or they're feeling like the bottom's going to fall out because they're not secure in their tomorrows.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, does this sound like you? Are you a member of what might be called the middle class? Although that's $60,000, that's the bottom of that for a family of four is going to go a lot further in Wichita, Kansas than it is in Brooklyn. If you consider yourself middle class, do you also identify with the description that Jennifer Jones Austin from the True Cost of Living Coalition is giving us from the results of their nationwide survey that yes, you may have a roof over your head today and for next month, but you're worried about the future.

You can't put a lot away for retirement, your savings may be relatively minimal, which is, of course, where the rainy day fund comes from, as well as any retirement savings. 212-433-WNYC. If this sounds like you, you'll have first priority on the phones. Also, we'll give you an opportunity, listeners, to say what you want to do about it because we'll get into the policy level and some of the policy options. This is, obviously, a big source of debate in the presidential election already with Biden and Trump addressing inflation, for example, in different ways. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text if this sounds like you or if you just have a question or a comment for Jennifer Jones Austin, who is also CEO of the Federation of Protestant Welfare Agencies here in New York. Do you have data from over time to compare this to this insecurity that you were describing? Is it getting worse? Is this the way it's been for decades? How would you put these stats from today in context?

Jennifer Jones Austin: What I will share with you is that we have some data around traditional poverty measures that tell us that the way that we have calculated what costs are for people does not really capture the true cost, the most accurately and adequately capture the cost. We've never had a true cost of living measure for the nation. I go back to the federal poverty measure and how it measures for basic need. Some say acute deprivation. It looks at what it costs to meet your basic daily expenses because we've never had a measure that fully captured the cost that Americans experience in trying to achieve economic security.

We've never had a measure that looks at debt, debt as it relates to credit card debt, mortgage debt, debt related to health care expenses, debt related to student loans. We've never had a true cost of living measure that says, how much does it cost you to put away for retirement, whether it'd be through a 401(k) plan, a 403(b) plan, a pension plan?

We've never had a measure that says, what does it cost for you when you're trying to make sure that your child has some of their tutorial supports taken care of? It's hard to say, what does it look like longitudinally because America has never captured that information.

We know it's the information, the critical data that we need to capture so that we can make smart, sound policy decisions. You may recall, Brian, that I think when we last talked, we were just about ready to as a city, New York City, vote on the racial justice ballot proposals. One of the proposals here in New York City was for a true cost of living measure. Interestingly, when New Yorkers went to the polls on those racial justice ballot measures, voted overwhelmingly in support of them. The measure, there was one that centered on a racial equity plan for the city.

There was another that established a preamble in the New York City Constitution, the New York City Charter. The third was to establish annually a true cost of living calculation, a mandate for the city. 81% of New Yorkers said, "We need that." Now, we know that we don't have 81% of the lowest income, or 81% don't reflect the lowest income alone here in New York. They would lower and middle-income New Yorkers saying, "I need to be seen. The government is not seeing me." If we only have policies and programs that focus on acute deprivation, then we're not going to be able to help all Americans achieve security.

Brian Lehrer: Let me ask you a political question out of this. I know the nonprofits you work for are non-partisan, but there may be Democrats cringing at this description of the state of the real cost, the true cost of living as your coalition is called, that you're giving us thinking, "Well, wait, Biden is out there telling us that we've got this really good economy and Trump is out there telling us things are really bad." Which one more reflects reality?

Jennifer Jones Austin: Here's the deal. If we go back to the Obama-Romney debates, we were hearing back then that nearly half of Americans were saying that they were struggling financially, unable to [unintelligible 00:14:13]

Brian Lehrer: That was during the Great Recession, after the housing crash.

Jennifer Jones Austin: We heard then again, I'm just going to call it, with some of Make America Great Again. That was a call to people, in part, to say, "I see you." What I believe with the true cost of living measure is that we have an opportunity here. Let me back up and also say, it was during the Trump years that the United Nations published reports saying that Americans are actually struggling at a far greater rate than poverty measures would suggest. The United Nations published a report. Donald Trump wasn't happy with that report.

My point is, when you ask about [unintelligible 00:14:55], we don't have a measure, but we know that we've been struggling for quite some time. What I believe can be done if you get into politics and narrative, is this is an opportunity for a leader to step forward and say, "You know what? I see you middle-income Americans and we want to do better by you."

Some may suggest, some might posit that centering on issues like growing jobs and looking at how we raise minimum wage, looking at how we address debt, whether it'd be home ownership debt, student debt, credit card debt, things like student debt, in particular, that this current administration has been centering on, those are ways of addressing the problems that surface with the true cost of living measure.

We have talked with people, some who are tied to the White House who said, "The truth of the matter is you cannot solve that which you do not measure for." If we are to help solve with policy, whether it'd be here in New York City or across the nation, the problems that are presenting for a growing number of Americans, we can only do that by first understanding what the issues are. That's what a true cost of living would do.

Brian Lehrer: Our time is flying. Let me get a couple of callers with stories in for you. Angelique in Clayton, North Carolina you're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling. Hi, Angelique.

Angelique: Hi, Brian. Huge fan. I listen all the time, I call in several times, and I really appreciate this segment. We moved from New York to North Carolina. Me and my husband, with a combined income, we have about 115,000 to $120,000 a year. My mortgage, what I net is half of that. Half of what I net goes just to my mortgage and bills, just like heating and HVAC, electricity, and everything else.

There's no room for me to even think about having kids at this point because I don't have the money to be spending on a child, let alone my retirement, my health care. We don't go to the doctor a lot of times when we're-- You can hear I'm congested, I won't go to the doctor because I don't have the money to pay for it. The cost of living is just so wrong from what it actually is. Even in North Carolina, which my family was like, "Oh, it's so smart, you're moving down there." No, the cost of living is not less here.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have policy prescriptions that you would like to see? I'm going to quote for a second from an article in Vox by the writer Eric Levitz, who was on the show talking about this recently. His headline is, Trump’s team keeps promising to increase inflation ha ha ha, which is obviously not what Trump says. He cites Trump's main economic policies and says they're really inflationary, the big one being a 10% tariff on all foreign imports, which is supposed to protect American jobs from things being made overseas by cheaper labor, protect wages.

Then also big tax cuts, which Eric Levitz believes are inflationary because they would be deficit-financed. Also, shrink the American labor force, which is the immigration restrictions. That's just some context from one article. Angelique, with what you're living, is there anything that you want to see in government policy that you're not seeing?

Angelique: I really think that the health benefits have to be included in overall health care for everyone in an affordable way. There has to be transparency between what is being charged and what is actually being received for services. That's part of the thing that I had a surprise bill. I had a procedure done, surprise bill, it ended up being $1,500 that I didn't expect to spend, and I'm still slowly paying that off. Things like that, I think higher income, the idea that we're just keeping afloat with inflation not actually increasing people's salaries. I know that the last guest said we're the richest state, but that does not trickle down to the actual people in the 99% who are not--

Brian Lehrer: Angelique, I'm going to leave it there for now. Keep calling us. Thank you very much. We're going to get one more in here. Fran in Shrewsbury, New Jersey. Fran, I'm going to have to keep you to about a soundbite, but tell us your story in one minute if you can.

Fran: Hi. By the way, I love your show, my first-time caller, a long-time listener.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Fran: I'm calling to share because I definitely am part of that middle class that you're talking about. My husband and I both have degrees. In fact, I have a master's degree and we're still struggling in New Jersey to make ends meet. A lot of that does have to do with medical issues that pop up that are unexpected. Unfortunately, my daughter suffered a lot during pandemic and ended up with an autoimmune disease. It's been difficult to pay for therapy and medical appointments, and not collect debt.

Brian Lehrer: You have two professional-class incomes, but you're still struggling, as you define it. It sounds very similar to what Jennifer and her group found in this report. Fran, thank you. I'm sorry to keep you short, please do call us again. Jennifer Jones Austin, we have to finish this up in one minute. Out of this True Cost of Living Coalition report, do you come out with any central policy recommendations?

Jennifer Jones Austin: The first policy recommendation is that the nation establish a true cost of living measurement that they utilize and apply on an annual basis, and that they use it to inform policy and decision-making around things such as, "Whoa, if the biggest cost or one of the greatest cost that we see regionally or county by county is mounting childcare, what do we, as a nation, do about that? If we see healthcare costs that are going unmet, what do we, as a nation, do about that?"

The beautiful thing about the true cost of living measure, as we're thinking about it, and we're working with the nationally renowned things like the Urban Institute to actually develop it is that we can look county by county and see how housing costs vary, childcare costs vary, transportation costs vary. Then state, local, and national policymakers can apply that data and make decisions that benefit the people in their various communities. If we don't have it, then we're not going to be smart about it.

Brian Lehrer: Jennifer Jones Austin, CEO of the Federation of Protestant Welfare Agencies, and co-chair of the National True Cost of Living Coalition. Thank you for sharing your report with us.

Jennifer Jones Austin: Thank you. Thanks so much. Have a good day.

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