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David Furst: Welcome back to The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm David Furst, WNYC's Weekend Edition and This Week in Politics host, keeping the seat warm for Brian today. He will be back tomorrow. We were speaking with WNYC's Michael Hill just earlier about the possibility of Paul McCartney adding a second show at the Bowery Ballroom in New York City tonight. He played a surprise show yesterday. Fans flocked to the ballroom's box office upon hearing the news. Sure enough, he is doing one again tonight. I can't even run away from the microphone to try to get tickets. According to his website, that second show is already sold out.

Moving on, it is time to introduce our next guest. The first few weeks of Donald Trump's presidency have brought on a barrage of executive orders. On Monday, Trump signed an executive order to reverse a federal push away from plastic straws. With the near-constant rolling back of Biden-era policies and questions about illegal orders that are being challenged in the courts, reinstating plastic straws may seem like one of the least significant things that Trump has done. The order can be seen as emblematic of Trump's greater disregard for environmental protections.

According to the United Nations, every year, the world produces more than 400 million tons of new plastic. Joining us now to break down the broader state of plastic pollution in the United States with efforts from former President Joe Biden actually worked and what the current president could roll back is Judith Enck, founder of Beyond Plastics, professor at Bennington College and former EPA Region 2 administrator. Judith, welcome back to WNYC.

Judith Enck: Thanks so much, David. Great to be with you.

David Furst: Judith, before we even move forward, let me make sure I'm saying your last name correctly. Is it Judith Enck? Am I doing justice?

Judith Enck: Perfect.

David Furst: Oh, fantastic. Thank you.

Judith Enck: You're hired.

David Furst: [laughs] If you'd like to join this conversation, we may have time for a couple of phone calls. 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. We'll talk broadly about plastic pollution in this conversation, but let's start with the executive order to reinstate plastic straws. Here is White House Staff Secretary Will Scharf and President Trump at the Oval Office on Monday right before the order was signed. Scharf speaks first.

Female Speaker: Writers write. You cannot call yourself a writer if you're not writing. If you keep treating it like a hobby, it's going to stay a hobby. Even as you don't have time, go in and--

David Furst: I don't think that was the right piece of tape. I'm not sure if we still have it. Let's see if we do. Do we have the conversation right before the executive order? Maybe we don't. We can maybe get back to that in just a minute. Judith, let's focus in on the executive order. Oh, wait a minute. I think we do have the clip. Here it is.

Will Scharf: The environmental impact of plastic straws versus paper straws is entirely unclear. This has cost both the government and private industry an absolute ton of money and left consumers all over the country wildly dissatisfied with their straws. We're asking aspects of the federal government, federal departments, and agencies to look at their existing procurement processes. We're asking your Domestic Policy Council to look holistically at this issue to address it. It really is something that affects ordinary Americans in their everyday lives.

President Donald Trump: We're going back to plastic straws. These things don't work.

David Furst: Okay, we're going back to plastic straws. We just heard from White House Staff Secretary Will Scharf and President Trump just then. Judith, what does the executive order say?

Judith Enck: Well, late last year, President Joe Biden issued an executive order encouraging the federal government to phase out the use of single-use plastics, including plastic straws. It was a really sensible executive order. It actually, I think, will save federal taxpayers money if we shift to reusable, refillable products. In the case of straws, we can skip the straw very often and not even have to pay for them.

President Trump has had this odd fascination with plastic straws. In fact, he sold Trump-branded plastic straws during the campaign. He did an executive order basically saying he's no longer going to comply with the previous executive order that discouraged the use of single-use plastics. He uses the straw as his symbol. Given all of the issues facing our country and our world today, I was a little bit surprised that this rose to the level of an early executive order. Remember, this comes in context.

President Trump also announced that the United States was once again pulling out of the United Nations Paris Climate Agreement intended to drive down greenhouse gas emissions. He's appointed a very anti-environmental administrator at the EPA, former New York Congress member Lee Zeldin. I think the straw issue is more symbolic than anything else, but quite honestly, not totally symbolic because 390 million plastic straws are used every day in the United States. McDonald's alone uses 95 million a day worldwide. I kind of reject the narrative of paper versus plastic straws.

David Furst: Scharf said the environmental impact of plastic straws versus paper straws is entirely unclear.

Judith Enck: Well, if it's unclear, why do an executive order? I think this is more symbolism and it shouldn't be a paper straw versus plastic straw debate. It should be, can we skip the straw and save businesses money? If you really need a straw, there are very affordable, reusable straws made from metal, made from pasta, made from all sorts of renewable materials. It's just a little bizarre that in the first month of this administration, this executive order emerged.

David Furst: Certainly, there are so many times where we could just skip a straw, of course, but Trump's executive order also claims that paper straws use chemicals that may carry risks to human health. Can you talk about that? Can you fact-check that for us? Do we know about that? Which type of straw is safer?

Judith Enck: Some paper contains PFAS chemicals, forever chemicals. I have not seen data if it's in straws or not, but it is in some paper products. That's correct. What they fail to mention is that 16,000 chemicals are used to make plastic. I would have a concern about sucking on a plastic straw and the risk of microplastics being included in your beverage. Then the 16,000 chemicals used in plastic often hitchhike. A microplastic is a little fragment of plastic, 5 millimeters or less, and you will often have toxic chemicals attached to the little fragments of plastic. They left out that part of the story.

David Furst: Well, plastic straws have become emblematic of the movement against single-use plastics. Listeners might remember the viral video that came out back in 2015. It showed a marine biologist pulling a plastic straw out of a turtle's nose. It sparked worldwide outrage, prompting countries and cities to start banning them. Can you talk about the results of that movement, either nationally or globally?

Judith Enck: Sure, so that is a very powerful video. I recommend that your listeners just google "plastic straw turtle nostril." It's very upsetting. I teach a class at Bennington College over Zoom. I would have my students watch this video, which has millions of views. You can't help but be affected by it. We have sea turtles, we have seabirds, we have fish and wildlife eating plastic in the ocean. That one video really galvanized public attention to the point when I go out to restaurants, I always say, "Skip the straw, please," and then I rudely speak for my entire table and say, "None of us need a straw." Then the response from the waitstaff, sometimes older waitstaff will say, "All right, Ms. Greenie, we hear you. No straws."

David Furst: Really?

Judith Enck: Yes, but mostly, the younger waitstaff say to me, "Oh, is it because of the turtle?" I say, "Yes." I am perfectly capable of consuming my beverage without a straw. In fact, someone in the restaurant industry once told me that restaurants hand out straws because you drink more of the beverage. You'll order a second drink where, normally, maybe just one.

I want to make the point. It's not paper versus plastic. It's single-use disposable straws versus no straws or reusable straws. I've had one metal reusable straw that I've used literally for five years on the rare occasion that I'm driving and I want to pop a straw into my gigantic cup of coffee. This is not the paramount environmental issue of the moment, but President Trump is very, very good at symbolism, so he's latched onto this.

David Furst: Now, we know Judith Enck answers for the table when you're ordering dinner.

Judith Enck: Except when the bill comes.

[laughter]

David Furst: I see. Well, some of the largest producers of plastic are fossil fuel companies. For listeners who are not familiar, can you explain that further?

Judith Enck: Sure, so we have a really good report on our website, beyondplastics.org, where I wanted to know, what are the greenhouse gas emissions from production, use, and disposal of plastic? It is very significant. We're having this discussion at a moment when plastic production is on track to double by 2040 unless we pass new laws like one pending in New York and New Jersey to reduce plastic packaging.

What's happening in the fossil fuel sector is, slowly, we are transitioning to clean, renewable energy and also electric vehicles. Transportation and power generation are the two largest markets for fossil fuel. The fossil fuel companies have decided to make plastic production Plan B for their industry. You have little mom-and-pop companies with familiar names like ExxonMobil and Shell building gigantic plastic production facilities in Texas, Louisiana, Pennsylvania. Their goal is to produce more and more, it's called pre-production plastic pellets, and ship them all over the country, mostly by rail, to make new plastic packaging.

David Furst: Interesting. We have some texts, someone saying, "I love my glass straws," and another one saying, "Straws sometimes need to be used for people with disabilities."

Judith Enck: Yes. Well, Beyond Plastics, when we were first organized six years ago, we supported a policy of banning plastic straws. Then I heard from disability advocates who said, "For some people with mouth and jaw disabilities, they need a bendable straw," so paper doesn't work. Our position now is we support straws upon request. If you want a plastic straw, you ask for it. It's a very small number.

Even if you don't have a physical disability, if you're Donald Trump and you get immense joy from drinking your beverage from a plastic straw, all he has to do is ask. Straws upon request is a good policy. It's good for the environment, but it also saves restaurant money. Remember, the statistic, 390 million plastic straws are used every day in the US. That costs money to the restaurants. It also has an immense climate change impact, health impact.

None of these plastic straws, by the way, get recycled. They're really small. They fall through grates at recycling facilities. Your plastic straw is going directly to a landfill or a garbage incinerator, which, unfortunately, is often located in low-income communities of color. Large parts of Manhattan send their solid waste to be burned at a garbage incinerator in Newark, New Jersey. We want to do everything possible to reduce sending plastic to be burned in Newark, New Jersey. It's not very neighborly.

David Furst: Well, if you want to join this conversation, you can call us, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Judith, I feel like I have to apologize. My son was working on a physics Olympics project last year that used a lot of plastic straws.

Judith Enck: That's okay.

David Furst: [chuckles] Every time I saw him working with it, I felt I'm part of the problem.

Judith Enck: Well, look, we don't have to be perfect. We just have to try and do our best because it's really hard to avoid plastic. I think you do what you can and you don't nail it every single time and that's okay.

David Furst: Okay. Well, let's take a call. Let's hear from you. First, we're going to be joined by Nick calling in from Brooklyn. Welcome to The Brian Lehrer Show.

Nick: Hi, thanks for taking my call. I feel like this is just another example of what Bannon called flooding the zone or muzzle velocity. I can't help but think that it's a little irresponsible to report this story without mentioning that the reason this story exists is by design that the Trump administration is trying to make us all feel completely helpless by issuing a quota of ridiculous number of executive orders every day.

David Furst: Well, that's a very interesting question, Nick. Let's hear your response to that, Judith. Also, is this the kind of move that the President makes simply to rile up his base and to needle left-leaning environmentalists?

Judith Enck: Yes, it's a distraction. I will say I received a bunch of calls yesterday from national media reporters, which I begrudgingly responded to every call and said, "Hey, you want to talk about plastics and climate change or do you want to talk about the study that came out last week that identified microplastics crossing the blood-brain barrier and we have 7 grams of microplastics in our brain?" No, they want to talk about the executive order. Look, Trump issued it. I will say that executive orders historically could have positive impacts on federal procurement.

Your listeners should know that this executive order doesn't ban all plastic straws. It just says when the federal government is spending money, you can purchase plastic straws. I remember decades ago, former President Bill Clinton signed an executive order saying that the federal government should use a certain percentage of recycled content paper, and that transformed the recycled paper industry. If you have a responsible president who actually wants to work to protect our health and protect the environment, executive orders can be very effective. This one barely passes the laugh test.

David Furst: Well, before you go, I want to ask you about Trump's EPA. The New York Times reported that the administration has warned more than 1,100 Environmental Protection Agency employees that they could be fired. There are about 7,000 employees at the agency according to ProPublica. As someone who worked for the EPA, are you following this news? What are your concerns? What are you hearing from your former colleagues?

Judith Enck: Yes, I'm following it closely. I was honored to serve as EPA Region 2 regional administrator during the Obama administration, which included New York, New Jersey, Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, and eight Indian nations in New York. I will say, the EPA career staff are very dedicated to making sure we breathe clean air, making sure that forever chemicals are not in our drinking water, making sure that toxic waste sites like the Gowanus Canal and Newtown Creek get cleaned up.

This is the most consequential attack on the work of EPA since it was formed by Richard Nixon over 50 years ago. EPA staff are quite concerned. They're terrified. There was an announcement that 1,100 staff will be fired. Those are typically the staff that came in the most recently. Also, they are firing all the environmental justice staff and staff that work on climate change.

David Furst: We're going to have to leave it there. So many more questions and a quick shout-out here. Someone says, "How much we love Judith Enck. She was a visionary and effective leader at the EPA." Judith Enck, founder of Beyond Plastics, professor at Bennington College, former EPA Region 2 administrator. Thank you for speaking with us.

Judith Enck: My pleasure, David. Thanks.

David Furst: I'm David Furst and this has been The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Brian Lehrer will be back tomorrow. Stay tuned for All Of It.

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