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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Over the past few weeks, as many of you know, we've had a series of conversations about making a good living with a college degree. We've talked about what it's like navigating the labor market without a four-year degree and what it takes to move forward in a system that often screens decent candidates out just because they don't have the piece of paper. Today we're asking what would it take for public policy to truly reflect their reality? In Washington, in state houses, and in local government, there's growing recognition that STARs, this population we've been talking about, STARs, an acronym for workers who are skilled through alternative routes, are a large and often overlooked segment of the workforce, and that policy changes could open up new opportunities for them, but the policies that shape hiring, training, credentialing, and public sector employment don't always keep pace.

Also when we talk about people without college degrees and politics, you're probably thinking, "Hey, that was such a defining demographic line between people who voted for Trump and people who voted for Harris in the election." Right? College or non-college, so are Democratic and Republican ways to help Americans with no college degrees move up the economic ladder any different?

We're joined today by two guests, Blair Corcoran de Castillo, vice president of public sector and policy at the group Opportunity@Work, which specializes in this topic, and Tony Gherardini, executive director of the State of Colorado's Department of Personnel and Administration. They have a Democratic governor, Governor Jared Polis out there. We'll talk about what voters are saying, what states like Colorado are doing, and whether this movement is gaining bipartisan momentum or whether there are different Democratic and Republican approaches. Blair, Tony, thanks so much for your time for this. Welcome to WNYC.

Tony Gherardini: Thank you, Brian. It's great to be here.

Blair Corcoran de Castillo: Hi, Brian. Thank you so much for having us.

Brian Lehrer: Blair, for you as the nonpartisan expert on this, does this work ever become politicized? Is there a risk that STARs' empowerment becomes caught up in left-right debates over education, labor, class, race, or maybe it's an opportunity if Democrats and Republicans want to compete for a non-college educated voter population?

Blair Corcoran de Castillo: Yes, Brian, I think this is a really important point, and I'm so glad that we have the opportunity to speak about it. This is really a purple issue, meaning that it's among the only remaining policies in which both political parties agree on. I think that makes sense because citizens are looking for issues that matter right now, and I think when over half of the working adults in this country are STARs, they're looking for opportunity, and I think both sides of the aisle are always trying to look for ways to improve their citizens experiences and lives.

I would argue 65% of the electorate are STARs, and it's almost equal in representation of STARs between the two parties, maybe with a little bit more within Republicans, but what we are seeing is that the majority of voters, regardless of degree or not, think that jobs having unnecessary degree requirements is a serious or very serious problem. We learned this from polling that our friends at the National Skills Coalition has done, and they're really getting concerned about making sure that both government entities and politicians are thinking about ways to make it easier for employers to hire based on skills rather than just having a college degree.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we're going to open up the phones on this for some of your stories and some of your opinions as we've done in other segments in this series, we've invited your stories of what kinds of alternative credentials and skills-building courses you've taken, things that are not four-year college degrees, how they've served you, what kind of barriers you've run into with employers. We've taken calls from employers as well. Today, it is kind of more political. If you are someone without a college degree seeking obviously to be upwardly mobile, are there certain policies that you want from government? Did this play into your choice for president even in the fall?

We know the college, non-college split in the Trump and Harris votes. Were you thinking about your prospects for being upwardly mobile as something that Donald Trump would better serve or Kamala Harris would better serve or didn't you think about it quite that way? Trump voters, Harris voters, anyone else, welcome to call in, 212-433-WNYC, and to be clear, again, not just on the presidential race, but whatever you might want from public policy to help you be upwardly mobile even without a college degree. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. Tony Gherardini, thanks again for joining us. Your office I see oversees state employee hiring for the state of Colorado, correct?

Tony Gherardini: That's right, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have certain kinds of policies or standards or outreach programs for the STARs, people skilled through alternative routes, other than four-year college degrees to apply for and be screened accurately for their skills for state jobs?

Tony Gherardini: Yes, we do. In 2022, our governor Jared Polis issued an executive order which in part directed all executive branch agencies to review and revise the minimum qualifications for state jobs to prioritize relevant skills and competencies over traditional degree requirements. Now what this is that historically in the state of Colorado, most of our jobs to work in state government had a four-year degree requirement. Although over time that became more of a cultural norm than a necessary requirement of the work.

The work that was undertaken at that time until now was to review every type of job posting and every classification and sort those that truly did need a four-year degree versus those that might not. For those that might not, we changed all the job postings in the state to ensure that individuals who are qualified through alternative routes, STARs, are able to apply for these roles, be screened in and receive an interview, and then once you're in the interview process and you're able to articulate your past experience, you're in the running with anybody else who may or may not have had a four-year degree.

This comes from, I would say maybe a passé or antiquated view that indicates that, hey, if you have a four-year degree then we know that that's at least an indicator that you are able to maintain a professional job and work and be successful in a workplace, but what we've seen over the years and what is bearing out through this initiative is that there are tremendous untapped resources in the labor market that might not have that four-year degree. We can bring tremendous perspective and experience to the workforce that we have potentially been missing for all this time.

Brian Lehrer: I see you're a former detective. Did you have a four-year college degree before getting into that work?

Tony Gherardini: Actually I did. Funny story, most departments here in Colorado don't require a four-year degree, but the department I worked for did in fact require a four-year degree, so they were a bit of an outlier. Their philosophy when they were founded was to model themselves after the FBI as opposed to modeling themselves after traditional policing. This was done in the wake of the 1968 riots in Chicago at the Democratic National Convention. That was freshly America's mind, and so they wanted to create a new professional model of policing, but still to this day there are a variety, and a majority of police departments don't require a four-year degree, and they hire some tremendous folks and produce some great officers throughout Colorado.

Brian Lehrer: Right, that's really interesting. Here in New York, they just reduced the educational requirements for joining the NYPD because there's been a shortage of recruits. That's another show, but it's just an interesting point related to what you were saying. How did you make your own transition into state government leadership? Does your personal experience, going from detective to policymaker or policy implementer at a statewide level shape how you think about hiring today?

Tony Gherardini: I think it does in the experience of both my police and also my military background in the state. I came into the state and it was a kind of a bucket of cold water. I can tell you that in my first year, or I should say first weeks and first months of being a worker for the state of Colorado, I thought this is the biggest mistake I've ever made in my life. That's 10 years ago now, so clearly not a mistake, but the reason for that is because prior to coming to the state, I had received on-the-job training consistent and basically nonstop leadership training and management and was always paired with a buddy.

In the police department, it's a partner, you always had a partner. In the military, you always had at least another sergeant or another officer that you were paired with kind of coming up or a peer soldier. Coming to the state, it was a very unique experience because it was kind of like, well, once you're hired, you've met the qualification, now go forth and figure out what your job is and do it well.

What we're working to bring to the state, in addition to the skills-based work and frankly does truly come from my military perspective and police background that we're hoping to imbue here, is the concept that we're not going to ask you to do a job that we're first not sure that you're qualified, trained, tested and able to do. At that point, then it's fair for us to assess whether or not you're doing a good job.

We've implemented a variety of programs related to managerial and HR training requirements to begin with, but also we have a program that goes right alongside the STARs hiring, recognizing that some folks who might be good candidates might not have the skills or the experience yet in the workforce to work in the state. In addition to the skills-based hiring initiative, we also have a work-based learning initiative, meaning that we can also hire individuals who might not meet those minimum requirements, but in particular roles we can bring them in, pair them with another state employee, have them learn on the job side by side with a mentor, bring them up to skill and then set them off into the world of state employment to be successful, ideally for years to come.

Brian Lehrer: Blair, for you as the think tank or advocacy group person, you're hearing what Tony is describing, some of the things they're doing at the policy level under a Democratic governor, Governor Polis in Colorado, are there in your experience and your study of policy and empowering the STARs, is there a Democratic or Republican way to do it? Is there a MAGA way? Is there a Bernie Sanders kind of way? In the election we see how Latino men voted and they are very overrepresented in the community of people who want to be upwardly mobile without college degrees, so anything like that that you can put your finger on?

Blair Corcoran de Castillo: No, I think because this is such a purple issue. We're seeing governors like Governor Polis and Governor Cox, both of them actually just spoke at our State of the Paper Ceiling event that you guys featured, I think, last week as well. Governor Cox is a Republican from Utah. We've seen over 26 governors remove unnecessary degree requirements and commit to moving towards skills-based practices over the past three years, and they've been on both sides of the aisle. Not only that, we're seeing it at the city and county level, so city of Philadelphia, City of Saint Paul, Hennepin County, and then actually the last two presidential administrations, so Trump's first administration, he wrote an executive order right at the end of his term that the Biden administration then reinforced and supported with guidance.

I will argue that different places need to do different things because every state, the federal government, there are different contexts, they have different needs, so I think that every place that is implementing skills-based hiring may be doing it a little bit differently to meet the best needs of or starting at a different place, but I haven't to date seen a particular way regarding political parties.

Brian Lehrer: Blair, let me stay with you. Besides Colorado, is there a state or city that you might identify as getting this really right at the policy level? Anyone you want to sing aloud and spotlight in a positive way?

Blair Corcoran de Castillo: We are working with Colorado. We do think that they're doing an amazing job, and I think that the series of executive orders that Governor Polis has put out has really created a foundation that could be a model for others. Tony mentioned the integration between apprenticeship work-based learning and skills-based hiring. It's really a statewide talent strategy that's exciting. There are a lot of other states. I think it's hard. Everybody's kind of leading in different ways. Ooh, this is a tough one.

I do want to shout out the six states, including Colorado, who are going on a year-long journey with us to advance their skills-based practices. They are Arizona, Colorado, California, Connecticut, Louisiana, and Utah, and there you see both sides of the aisle in terms of governors as well. What I will just say is that there are so many creative, innovative, and just amazing HR leaders like Tony across those states that are thinking about amazing ways to figure out how to tap into all the talent that exists in their communities, and so, yes, it's hard for me to choose because there's just a lot of work that's happening right now.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Olivia in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Olivia, thanks for calling in.

Olivia: Hi, Brian, thanks for taking my call. Call you all the time.

Brian Lehrer: That's right.

Olivia: I just wanted to say that I'm so appreciating this flavor of the word state work that is being tossed around not just the states themselves, but this idea of the state as this overarching, like this way to serve the populace that, like the state is here to do those things. I think this idea of letting more people get training, like this buddy system, sort of like setting us, the populace up for having a functional state, like the mechanism by which we facilitate our society.

I just think that this new framing of it, this new way of thinking about it, of this new way of getting more and more people involved and even perhaps excited about functional state work is such a fantastic direction for us to be shifting to take the government, take state work the way that we want it to go. I just want to say thank you so much to these people who are operating these initiatives. I think that this is one of the ways that we get to where we want to be.

Brian Lehrer: Olivia, is part of the implication of what you're saying, even though you didn't put it this way, that there's so much demeaning of government workers taking place now through DOGE, that you like this because it seems to elevate their value to society?

Olivia: Yes, I think the dignity of state work, the dignity of state service, like the gentleman from Colorado saying his military service, it seems like that's one way to serve the state, serve the greater idea of the nation. I think going into government work to make sure that a society is smooth and functional so that someone who's not working in the state just experiences a functional society, I think that there's a lot of dignity in that service, and yes, I think that I really appreciate the way that these initiatives elevate that dignity.

Brian Lehrer: Olivia, thank you very much. Yes, that's why they call them public servants. Olivia, thank you.

Olivia: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Tony Gherardini from the state of Colorado, you've created a high school to career pipeline for public sector jobs. That's one of the things that I think you referred to briefly before, but how does that work? Tell people how you've set up a high school to career pipeline, because that's so core to what we've been talking about in the series of alternative routes to upward mobility than four-year college degrees.

Tony Gherardini: Sure, Brian, and that's in the process, and that's in the vision and we're currently working on that right now to get off the ground, but Olivia couldn't have been a better caller coming into this because the concept once again for that mirrors a lot of the military's approach. Military members, recruiters are oftentimes in schools talking to kids about what they can do in the military. I know that when I was coming up, I would always be told and frequently hear throughout my career, any career you want on the outside, in the public sector or in the private sector you can find in the military.

I think that if we take that same approach, and this is the idea, we take that same approach and we build partnerships with school districts, in particular high schools, perhaps alternative schools, and identify cohorts of kids who might not be interested in college, might not be able to afford college, might not be college bound, but at least get in front of them and let them know what opportunities exist in state work and working for state government. In a state, you can be a social worker, a teacher, a doctor, a nurse, a CEO, you can be a diver, you can be a pilot. There's a variety of work you can do in state government, and I think a lot of folks don't know that.

If we leverage tried and true recruitment practices and get in front of kids who are at that crossroads and show them what the state government has to offer, interview them and then select them for these roles, maybe at the end of junior year we can provide them with a pathway into state service and have a job waiting for them at the end of their senior year. What that means is they're going to be paid well, they're going to be contributing to a retirement system, they're going to have a health care plan right out of high school and tuition assistance if they choose to go to college once they do get into the state system.

In the long-term ideal state, we would hope to help return trust to government, ideally by also implementing what I like to call a state service academy. That would be a short educational stint that these kids who are selected to come into the state would go through in order to round them out and polish them and prep them for working for the state. That's the next step iteration that we're hoping to do here, but we couldn't possibly do it if we didn't have that executive order authorizing us to seek STARs and to allow us to provide on-site work-based learning.

Brian Lehrer: Ani in Virginia, you're on WNYC, thank you for calling in. Hi, Ani.

Ani: Hi, Brian. Long time, first time. I am calling because I believe that the unpaid internship and unpaid training that so many businesses employ when they hire new hires should be completely outlawed, and I think that many businesses may not be able to "afford" unpaid paid training periods or afford to pay their interns, but if that's the case, there should be a clear way to give businesses funding to do completely full pay for new hires. I think that on-the-job training is essential sometimes and for STARs even in entry-level positions to climb up and to make a living wage while they're learning, it's just something that's really lacking. I've worked many jobs that didn't pay me for two weeks of training, and those two weeks can make the difference between getting my rent and not getting my rent.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, that's a really interesting and very policy-oriented proposal. Tony, I don't know if you have anything like that in Colorado, but I know it's something that our radio station has looked at as an organization and moved away from unpaid internships a number of years ago. It's a logical thing that if most of what's available from businesses is unpaid internships, it's only people who already have some economic privilege paying their bills in other ways who can get into the workforce, get their feet in the door of a particular workplace in that particular way. Just curious if you have any policy toward that in Colorado or if that's crossed your mind before.

Tony Gherardini: Certainly. A couple things to know. Obviously as a state, we have a lot of employee protections already baked in in the civil service system, so being able to have a wide-open internship program as described in private sector systems, more or less just really doesn't exist in the state. For the most part, our internship interactions are generally, say, for instance, grad students who are doing a project to finish up their degree and things like that. Not individual who's coming to work for us for a year unpaid. Typically in the state, if you're working for the state, you have to be paid in exchange for that work that you're providing the state, and in most cases you have civil service protections right upon hire and then even more so after that first year, so those internships really aren't something that we work in. I will want to flag that.

Another peer department here in Colorado, the Colorado Department of Labor and Employment, was also included in this executive order and they are doing yeoman's work outside of state government to encourage businesses to adopt these exact same models that we have implemented here in Colorado. Consider in Colorado that what you're hearing me talk about applying to our state workforce, the other department, the Department of Labor and Employment, is working hard to encourage private sector organizations to adopt these same practices and move towards this new paradigm.

Brian Lehrer: Blair, anything on that from you at Opportunity@Work?

Blair Corcoran de Castillo: Yes, I just say that skills-based talent practices are kind of transforming every piece of the talent cycle, and so that includes recruitment strategies, onboarding, and training strategies like both the caller and Tony have discussed. That includes thinking about assessing folks while they're doing the job. I think sometimes we often really anchor on interviews and most people don't do interviews for their job, and so it's not always a great indicator, and so these work-based learning, these apprenticeship opportunities are an ability for both that person to learn but also for everybody to see them in action. It's also a great way for both the employer and the employee to consider whether it's the right fit. I think that these are just some of the benefits that I think we're hearing from both the callers and that they're doing in Colorado.

Brian Lehrer: We're almost out of time for today, but Blair, I know you've been saying that this is a purple issue, meaning not a Democratic or Republican issue, empowering people without college degrees to be upwardly mobile, but what about some of the social issues and the ways they play into this? What about living wage laws? Because it's going to be people without college degrees who primarily are affected by how much employers are required to pay them in terms of upward mobility. How about free community college like Bernie Sanders and some other people propose? How about universal childcare or reproductive rights? Don't they play into this?

Blair Corcoran de Castillo: I'm sure they do. STARs make up 70 million individuals across this population, so they're absolutely not a monolith, and I'm sure that they make different decisions, just like all of us do, about who they vote for and why they do. I think what we have seen is that in almost every job except for those where you really need a degree, like a lawyer, a doctor, civil engineer, building a bridge, there are STARs already in roles, so we know that can do the work. I think that if they have the skills for the job, we believe that they should be paid the same regardless of where they got their skills.

We do see a lot of different bills that are going at the federal and state level that are helping with this, both on removing unnecessary degree requirements from procurement contracts, so if a state isn't requiring a degree for that type of role within the state service, they shouldn't require it for a labor category that is serving the state and similarly around the Fair Labor Standards Act and making sure that people can be automatically screened out. That is some of what we're seeing.

Brian Lehrer: Blair Corcoran de Cas-- Oh, go ahead. You want to say something, Tony? Go ahead.

Tony Gherardini: Yes, Brian, if I can hone in on that. You talked about, for instance, free community college, and I just want to put in a plug. In Colorado, this ties right back to our conversation about law enforcement. We have a program at the state that was implemented just, I think last year called Career Advance Colorado, and it provides free community college, fully paid semesters for folks going into particular areas of need, so, for instance, law enforcement, forestry, nursing, early childhood education, education, construction, can receive free community college tuition here in Colorado as a way of moving folks into the workforce and providing the skills necessarily for those roles that we can't just purely skill-based people into.

Then one other thing I'll point out is Colorado has something called an early college system. There's a series of Colorado early colleges where kids in high school will be simultaneously earning their associate's degree through community college classes delivered in that high school itself at zero cost. We are definitely taking a holistic view and looking to shape the entire workforce, both external as well as internal to the state.

Brian Lehrer: Tony Gherardini, executive director of Colorado's Department of Personnel and Administration, and Blair Corcoran de Castillo, vice president of public sector and policy at the group Opportunity@Work, thank you both so much for joining us.

Blair Corcoran de Castillo: Thank you.

Tony Gherardini: Thank you, Brian.

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