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Amina Srna: It's The Brian Lehrer Show. I'm producer Amina Srna, filling in for Brian today. Good morning again, everyone. We'll now take a closer look at the communities that delivered Assemblymember Zohran Mamdani his win in the Democratic mayoral primary this week. Joining me now is S. Mitra Kalita, co-founder of URL Media and CEO and publisher of Epicenter NYC. Hi, Mitra. Welcome back to WNYC.

Mitra Kalita: Hi, Amina, it's great to be with you.

Amina Srna: You've admitted that you didn't believe Mamdani stood a chance against "the machines and money" he faced in this election. Talk about the machines and money. What makes these hurdles seem so insurmountable? What's your broad view of how Mamdani did it?

Mitra Kalita: Sure, it's a great question. It is the backdrop of my career in local and national politics. I've been a journalist, about 30 years. I've been in Queens most of that time, although I've worked in national media. It's a thing that we all know in Queens that there is this infamous machine here. They decide who wins elections. Even as we've had a number of upsets, most notably AOC and her defeat of Joe Crowley a few years ago, it's known that you not just have to kiss the ring, but there's a real process to winning elections in Queens, and by virtue of that, New York City.

Just an example of this is if when people run for citywide office, it's very common for one of their first stops to be Southeast Queens and the Black churches there. Of course, a leader in the Congressional Black Caucus is Gregory Meeks. I want to be clear that it's not just a machine that's an old white boys' network. There is a system of how this works. A few months ago, while there was excitement and euphoria around Zohran Mamdani's campaign, I think a lot of people thought, "Well, we're really happy that people are talking about these issues, that he's in the race, but there's no way that, on a citywide election, you can counter these forces." I admit, and I'm really happy to have the opportunity to come on WNYC and admit that I was wrong.

Amina Srna: Let's see what listeners have to say, shall we? Listeners, if you were a new primary voter this time around and you ranked Zohran Mamdani somewhere on your ballot, give us a call and tell us what motivated you to get involved, or if you weren't totally sure at the beginning, maybe you were considering voting for Andrew Cuomo, someone else, what convinced you? 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. We've also had a few calls from those of you who have volunteered for the Mamdani campaign. What do you want to say attributed to this win? Was it your efforts to get out the vote, the canvassers? Please let us know. 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can also text that number.

Mitra, as members of the media and political class digest the results of this election, people are looking at Mamdani's social media campaigning as something that can be replicated in future races with more moderate candidates. Yet, Mamdani points to his relentless focus on the issue of affordability and his army of volunteers who knocked on doors. How do you weigh the importance of his social media with his message or other aspects of the campaign?

Mitra Kalita: Yes, such a good question. I don't actually think social media can win elections, but I do think from a name-recognition perspective, it really helped him. I also think you have to look at the difference in social media now versus a few years ago. One, it's very video-dependent. For a candidate like him, who's a former rapper, the son of a Hollywood director, Mira Nair, there's a comfort in front of the camera that I think really worked to his advantage.

There was also a comfort with influencers and content creators that make up the new faces of social media now. Even on your question about affordability and staying on issue, someone's asking him about dating in New York City, which is a pastime for a lot of New Yorkers. He immediately pivots that to, "Well, it's really hard to date when you're so worried about how high your rent is." Everyone knows what he's doing, but staying on message, even on platforms that are trying to get you to talk about other things, I actually think worked in his favor because it felt like he wasn't shilling on the platform.

He was using it to talk about the thing he wanted to talk about, right? I thought he did that well. Then, of course, coupled with, you just mentioned, the volunteers. The social media game doesn't work unless there are human faces knocking on doors, connecting with people. I think he just leveraged all of that into this package that felt like he was talking individually to voters as opposed to using these platforms that tend to be one to many, if you will.

Amina Srna: Let's take a call. Let's go to Celso in Corona, Queens. Hi, you're on WNYC.

Celso: Hello. How are you doing? I'm a Latino supporting Zohran. I think that the message of the Democratic Socialists of America is hitting home right on point. The Bernie message, the Bernie Sanders message, that there's inequality in America. A lot of groups are marginalized and not given a chance to participate in the economy, especially New York City. We see how the outer boroughs are neglected and everything's focused on Manhattan.

I'm in my 40s. It's a lot harder than it was for my parents, the son of immigrants, that's a beneficiary of birthright citizenship. Now, we see that not only are our parents under attack, they're citizens now. Not only our parents, but previous generations under attack. Now, we have the elderly parents struggling. Now, the next generation is also struggling to stay in the city. All my friends that lived in the city pretty much have left the city since my-- I was born and raised in New York. We see that the severe inequality and things haven't changed.

People feel good about Zohran's messages of hope and that you can rebuild this city and that you can live in this city and survive, and not have to worry about putting a roof over your head. As you've seen on Eric Adams and even de Blasio, homelessness has gone off the roof, but rents have gone off the roof at the same time. People are frustrated with the bills and everything going up, Con Edison. Every single bill has gone up that it's suffocating a lot of people. I think that got a lot of people out to support him.

Amina Srna: Celso--

Celso: I was one of those doubters in the beginning. I was one of those doubters. I was very doubtful. I'm like, "He's not going to do it," and then I kept hearing his message. I met him, and I was like, "I love his message. I heard him speak," and I said, "This is the change we need." I love the fact that he didn't take money from megadonors. 32,000 unique small donations. That convinced me that he's not beholden to the same people that the other people are beholden to.

Amina Srna: Celso, thank you so much for your call. Please call us back again. Mitra, a lot of points that you have raised that I've seen reported elsewhere so far, but what are you hearing in Celso's call?

Mitra Kalita: Well, again, I mentioned connection, and I think the skepticism, but then this desire to connect and believe really won a lot of people over. I do think the point that he just made, I don't feel like I have it as good as my parents had it. That actually also propelled another candidate into office in 2016, and that was Donald Trump. This feeling of dissatisfaction with our status quo, I think Zohran Mamdani tapped into, but it's certainly not a new feeling. I think he coupled that with these platforms of, "I'm going to freeze your rent. I'm not taking money from these types of people." I think that staying on message really ended up appealing to people. Then, like I said, the belief that this could happen really did pull people out to the polls.

Amina Srna: In your recent piece, you warn against "efforts to cast a monolithic Black vote or Latino vote." Celso, at the beginning of his call, had identified as Latino. What do you mean when you say New York City is intersectional? Why did polling seem to miss the nuances of different identity groups in this election?

Mitra Kalita: Yes, so this is an issue certainly in boroughs like Queens, where we're defined by our diversity. We're defined by many languages. National polling, just by virtue of even the action of how it's done, if it's people who have cell phones or have the ability to take a phone call, characterizes the population that's going to give you answers. The populations that tend to be left out of that are diverse, speak other languages.

When you mention intersectional, there's also this issue of how we define ourselves. In some cases, you saw even how Mr. Mamdani is characterized as the son of a Hindu mother and a Muslim father. He was born in Uganda. His father is from India but was raised in Africa. There's a lot going on there, right? I think our partisan politics tend to see you as Democrat or Republican, right? That's like you're one or the other.

Those of us in Queens, I'm the daughter of Indian immigrants. I was raised in Puerto Rico. There's no place that understands my identity better than New York City. That complicated nature of a Zohran Mamdani, I also think resonated with voters. Our institutions, including polling, have not caught up to, "People are many things." They might speak many languages. They might call many places home. They might check off a few boxes in the ways that we see them.

Amina Srna: Ahead of the election, Mamdani's support was seen to be grounded in the college-educated white vote, while Cuomo was thought to have the Black and Latino working-class vote. You pointed out that the South Asian community really rallied behind Mamdani in this election. How did Mamdani reach these voters, and why are they often overlooked?

Mitra Kalita: His mother is a known entity for sure. Like my generation, when we saw films like Mississippi Masala, which is the first time I can think of an Indian actor, Sarita Choudhury, with the iconic Denzel Washington, so there's a little bit of familiarity, but he didn't bank on that. As you just mentioned in the interview with Council Member Shahana Hanif, he actually spoke Bengali. He does not regularly speak Bengali, but he learned those words and learned a few overlapping phrases in Hindi and Bengali. I think the Bangladeshi community is a really important one, increasingly.

I mentioned Southeast Queens earlier. That's a neighborhood that many of them live in. Many of them are also in his base of Astoria. The South Asian community in New York City is really shifting, right? When my father came here in 1971, he arrived from India. You started to see Pakistanis. Increasingly, the population is Bengali, Nepali, Tibetan. Then, of course, you have Indo-Caribbean populations. I did see on social media, he was a frequent presence in Jackson Heights. We have an area called Diversity Plaza. He was frequently there meeting with many of the shopkeepers who are from the identities that I just mentioned.

I also think that these two particular voting blocs of Indo-Caribbeans and Bangladeshis, I think, have actually exerted more power in New York City elections recently than when we had Indians and Pakistanis here in the 1970s and 1980s in much bigger numbers or a much bigger percentage of the population. That's another just shifting dynamic where we're not a monolithic, even within the South Asian population. The Bangladeshi experience is much different than previous South Asian immigrants.

Amina Srna: Mitra, we're getting a lot of texts and calls. We have two texts in particular that seem to be a little bit on the opposite spectrum here. One reads, "Up until the moment I walked into my polling place on primary day, my plan was to rank Lander first. Then I got into the booth. My curiosity about what an anti-establishment candidate could do for the city got the best of me. I feel like the Democratic machine has enabled corruption in the mayoralty. I don't know whether Mamdani can achieve his platforms, but he seems very earnest and honorable, and I think that that is what we need right now."

That's one. And then the opposing text, which has a question, "What do you say to the listeners who have these fears, who believe that candidates' progressive messages like--" Oh, excuse me. There are a lot of texts coming in. Let me just quickly find it. People are very, very energized. Well, here's a question. "What do you say to these listeners that have fears, who believe that progressive candidates like Mamdani are weaker with a general electorate than a more moderate candidate?"

Mitra Kalita: Yes, I think it's more important than ever to listen. The discontent that Mamdani tapped into is one that Epicenter has been-- we were founded in the pandemic during a period of great upheaval and fragility. I do want to be clear that I'm not supporting his rise, but I think the factors that fueled his rise are the ones that we must listen to right now, including stopping and listening, not defining people as Trump voters versus with us or against us right now.

I would say that this action of listening to people's fears and believing them, there's two populations I've heard from a lot over the last 24 hours. One are Jewish New Yorkers. The other are folks on Wall Street who are wondering, "What does this mean for the business community?" which, by the way, that also encompasses quite a bit of the South Asian community, right?

There's a lot of Indians who work on Wall Street. I think that is something that he's going to have to listen to. He's pretty good at saying, "If you agree with most of what I'm saying, vote for me. If you agree with everything I'm saying, then you're crazy." We're not going to completely agree. I think, again, coming from that place of listening and understanding seems more important than ever.

Amina Srna: Let's go to a call. Debbie in Kensington, hi, you're on WNYC.

Debbie: Well, I'm an older Jewish voter. Originally, I got involved in Mamdani's campaign because I saw it as a psychological antidote for myself to the Trump win. I just felt I had to be involved in something positive that was not just saying that Trump is bad because of process, but that he was bad because he was going to increase the phenomenal inequality we have in our country. I was inspired but skeptical. What really struck me about the whole process of being involved in his campaign was I kept going back to a quote from Bernie Sanders when he was running for president.

He was asked about whether he'd be the commander-in-chief because he had so many anti-military stance. He said, "Well, yes, of course, but really my main role would be the organizer-in-chief." I thought, "My God, that is what Zohran is doing." You know what? His media role wasn't just showmanship as Cuomo characterized it in the first debate. It was community organizing. Every time, all his outreach to communities, it was always about connecting with people and bringing them in. I began to feel I was part of a movement.

Amina Srna: Debbie, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us. Actually, can we ask Debbie a question briefly? Debbie, I just wanted to know, do you think that organizing could help accomplish the policy goals that Mamdani has?

Debbie: Absolutely. I don't think it's possible to go up against Trump on big things or smaller things without having the political will of your people behind you. I think he's going to have to keep building that movement as mayor. I think he's shown himself to be extraordinarily talented at doing that.

Amina Srna: Mitra, any responses to Debbie?

Mitra Kalita: Yes, I think the policy piece is a really important one that you have had this desire for change, right? While the assertion of that through marches and dissent is important, and it's so important and essential in our democracy, not coupling that with solutions leaves people often feeling even more despair. I think what Debbie's tapped into is it has to be coupled with big thinking. Then his platforms were prescriptive, right? Freezing the rent, child care, and so those are very specific solutions to the despair that people might be feeling.

Amina Srna: Mitra, we asked for a first-time voter, and we got one. Here is Stan in Williamsburg. Hi, Stan. You're on WNYC.

Stan: Hi, how are you? I was just very moved by the campaign. I thought that it was good that we had an anti-establishment candidate that was focused on the issues and not focused on foreign policy and issues that are way beyond millions of miles from New York City. I really feel like a lot that could have been discussed was not discussed because of people focusing on what's happening in the Middle East instead of focusing on what's on their backyard.

Even yesterday on Brian Lehrer Show, Kirsten Gillibrand had a meltdown about his supposed position on Israel. I was just completely shocked that the MeToo person that couldn't even go up against Cuomo was right there beating the drum for Cuomo. I couldn't tell if she was representing New York or Israel. I'm just disgusted that people would rather talk about other things because they don't want their own failures being brought up.

That's it. I would rather just have a candidate that would focus on the issues. Maybe we can get progress on things instead of just capitulation to Albany or even collaborating with the White House on certain things. I believe every other candidate, with the exception of Lander and others, but as far as the popular candidates, I feel like that's all we would get, would just be more of the same.

Amina Srna: What about from a policy standpoint for Mamdani, Stan? What were the proposals that brought you to the voting booth?

Stan: The cost of living, it's ridiculous. I was here during the pandemic. I saw that people were benefited from having free bus. Everyone would like a rent freeze. Even people then who can well afford their rent would like a rent freeze just so they can just plan and try and get ahead. I would like that. That's what really brought me in. As I say, money talks. He was talking about money instead of just having a lot of money spent behind him trying to distract.

Amina Srna: Thank you so much for your call, Stan. Mitra, one more text that goes to a little bit of what brought Stan out to the voting booth, which is affordability. A texter writes, "The progressive platform has merit. However, is there a realistic way for any mayor independent of legislative action to finance and implement thousands of affordable housing units, free buses, municipal grocery store? The list goes on. My question is more--" Maybe you know the answer to that specific question, but it does seem that the biggest line of attack on progressives over the years is, how will you pay for that? It didn't seem to stick that much, I guess, in this election. Do you have any takeaways on that?

Mitra Kalita: Yes, I do think many interviews with Zohran Mamdani have become formulaic now, where they will ask, "How will you pay for that?" His standard answer. Again, he is sticking to one answer. If you watch him over and over and over again, as I think a lot of people do, and your feeds, you know this. If you've watched one Zohran Mamdani video on Instagram, you're going to get 65 now, right? He'll say, "Do you make more than $1 million? If you don't make more than $1 million, you don't have to worry about it because your taxes aren't going up."

That has been his line in terms of how you're going to pay for it. Of course, the questions about Israel that were mentioned, that is a constant question that he's getting. I think this issue of governance also comes up, but it's more in reference to what he did in the Assembly. I do think that's a very fair criticism, or maybe it's a criticism before we know how he's going to do, right?

I could point to many white guys and many sons of politicians who get into office with no experience. We really don't raise that as much as we're seeing the issue of inexperience and how will you govern raised here, but I think this is a governance and management of a large, large bureaucracy. Anyone who has questions about that, I don't think we should discount that. I think it's very, very fair.

Amina Srna: I do want to stay on the topic of Israel. As Stan raised, he was referring to an interview yesterday with Senator Gillibrand, but I do want to keep this to Mamdani. If elected, Mamdani will be the first Muslim mayor of New York City. You describe his support of Palestine as a "third rail" in politics. Like the subway, you don't want to touch the third rail.

On one hand, concerns about anti-Semitism in this city should not be diminished in any way, but there was also so much coverage about Mamdani's stance on Israel towards the end of the campaign. How do you reflect on the line between valid concerns about anti-Semitism and tactical fear-mongering of a Muslim South Asian candidate? How do you see this continuing through the general election in November?

Mitra Kalita: I'm really worried about this because I think, in the last 24 hours, the attacks have already stepped up. I don't know if there's some agreement that he and Eric Adams can come to. This might be so idealistic and naive of me, but is there a way we can agree upon how to disagree? The racism towards Zohran Mamdani pretty much has started right away.

I share that because it comes from a place of saying we're fearful, and yet images of him looking very menacing or citing his immigrant background, I think Donald Trump said something about like, "He looks horrible." There's just a lot of coded speak. I would love if there was some agreement. This would have to be among New York because I think what better city than New York to say, "Look, we're going to have an election recognizing that this is a city of people from a lot of different places, and we operate from a perspective that that is welcome here, and this is what built the city"?

Again, idealistic, but I do wonder if there's some sort of rules of engagement that we need to agree upon among the candidates. I would say even in the media in terms of coverage of this, because there's a lot of unchecked, "He aligns with this and that," and those are things that can be easily fact-checked. On this issue of being the third rail, what I do appreciate about Mamdani's responses, which I've looked at and I think are good for his supporters to continue to mimic or parrot, is that when someone asks him about Israel, he doesn't go right to Israel. He talks about anti-Semitism in New York as a very real thing.

I think when we discount anti-Semitism, that does nobody any services in terms of being seen or validated in concerns, right? I do think validating the anti-Semitism and saying, "We must fight this. There's no place for this," in some ways, Amina, as you just did, saying, "Look, this is something we're concerned about," and calling it what it is. I think the other piece is a lot of voters agree with Mamdani's stance on Israel and Palestine and saying, "Look, Israel has a right to exist, but what has happened is beyond pale right now."

There is an agreement of voters that, both in my career in mainstream media, and as long as I've been covering politics, we don't really go there because it's uncomfortable. We know that there's a lot of potential missteps and misstatements. Even as I'm talking, I'm being careful because I've been through this. I think, like I said, just getting to some rules of engagement around this might be a good start among the campaigns.

Amina Srna: Let's go to another call. Will in Harlem. Hi, Will, you're on WNYC.

Will: Hi. I had followed Mamdani's career and actually had volunteered for supporting a bill. He had introduced the Not on Our Dime! Act in Assembly. When he announced, I was initially skeptical, thinking I'm a DSA member, thinking he's a DSA member. There's no way, and so was just so, so happy that he kept in the race, that he builds such a strong movement, and has given me so much more hope for the future.

Amina Srna: Thank you so much for your call, Will. Mitra, do you want to reflect a little bit about how-- I don't know. New York is a pretty unique place, where somebody very, very progressive, a socialist Democrat, can run and do pretty well.

Mitra Kalita: Yet, we're so jaded in New York. When he mentions "hope," it's like, "Wait, are you a New Yorker?" You know what? I think in order for democracy to survive, it still has to be able to surprise us. When I have the mea culpa of like, "I was wrong about this a few months ago. I didn't think he had a shot. Now, over the last few weeks, I watched this," I think this ability to surprise us is an important part of how this works. The other piece of the hope mentioned, which we haven't talked a lot about, is young voters.

Amina Srna: Right.

Mitra Kalita: Epicenter was actually going to try to do a project early on in the campaign with an expert around young voters. We had hosted a book reading last year about youth activism and a woman who'd done some research there. This was an area that we really care about because we do a lot of intergenerational work. We backed away from it.

Again, this is a mea culpa moment because the number of young voters in the primary, we just were like, "Ah, it's beyond the February 14th deadline to register and change your party." I think I am looking anew at the energy of young people in New York City seizing the city. I'll be 50 next year. I think I'm precisely the generation that needs to hang back a little and, again, just pause, listen, and hear what they're saying, but also, where do they want to take us? That's what I just heard in your last caller when he said "hope."

Amina Srna: Can you break down a little bit who those young voters were? I was reading a lot of young men that I think in the presidential election in 2024 swung towards Donald Trump. We talked a lot about the manosphere on this program. I'm curious, who are those young voters? Was it the intersectional demographic that you've been talking to us about?

Mitra Kalita: Yes, yes, so young voters are very much defined by diversity. That's just inherent. Young people in America value diversity. They are diverse. They take a lot of it for granted. They're also multiracial, and so the intersectionality that we've talked about. I'm so glad that you mentioned men, because I think that we had painted male voters as Trump--supporting, MAGA hat-wearing members of incel. A lot of the, "That is the framing that we've talked about male voters with," which has also been very dangerous.

I watched Mamdani's walk across Manhattan. I think it was 13 miles. I think there was something about the youthfulness with which he's fist-bumping. He's dabbing. He's with a Dominican rapper at one point, Kid Mero. There was something very masculine about elements of it, right? I wouldn't have been in those spaces that they were in, and yet there was something very joyful and intimate.

I think that action, which is also a Mamdani that we're seeing on social media appealing to young men, might be a bit of a counter to this idea of toxic masculinity, which is a term in and of itself that's fraught. Again, the incel loner voters that have been going to Donald Trump, there was something about the community building among young men that I think Zohran Mamdani has tapped into that we should pay attention to and, again, young male voters.

Amina Srna: Even going on programs like The Breakfast Club for an all-male audience.

Mitra Kalita: That's right. Great point.

Amina Srna: I'm sure there are plenty of New York women that listen to that program as well, but it is a cool kids' club for sure.

Mitra Kalita: Also, there's a flip side of that, which is the cult of personality of candidates. Donald Trump has it. Zohran Mamdani has it. It does feel like we allow men to have that. Me and you, being two women on this call, there's an element of, "Will New York City ever have a female mayor?" There's a flip side of the cult of personality that we also have to examine our politics on. For young men, I do think he's putting them in a much more intimate, connected place than what we saw with the characterization of Trump voters.

Amina Srna: Well, speaking of high-profile women Democrats, you are local to Jackson Heights, Queens, which is also where Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez delivered an upset win against the high-ranking Congressman Joseph Crowley back in 2018. Can you talk about the voters in Queens? Many of whom swung for Donald Trump in 2024.

Mitra Kalita: Yes, yes, so I think the economics of how voters in Queens cannot be underestimated, meaning Jackson Heights, my home base, has more restaurant workers than any other neighborhood in New York City. This is a working-class neighborhood. It is gentrifying. The forces of higher rent, or can we stay in the neighborhood? I, as someone who's been in and out of the neighborhood for about 25 years now, get young people all the time asking me, "Do you know of any real estate deals?"

We even get those at Epicenter like, "I need a one-bedroom for $1,500." It's like, "Jackson Heights, I don't know where that's going to happen." That's our reality. The food pantries here over the last five years, the lines really never went away. There's an irony of restaurant workers fueling our economy from this neighborhood, and yet food insecurity is visible to us at every corner. I think those are the factors that are in voters' minds when they go to vote.

The AOC upset of Joseph Crowley, there were a lot of factors, such as it was a special election, so turnout is everything. Crowley, for much of my time in Jackson Heights, was an institutional figure, right? I remember in 2018, I was on my way to work. I take the Roosevelt Avenue subway station, one of the busiest subway stations in the city. I saw him handing out flyers, and I thought, "I've never seen Joe Crowley handing out flyers. I've never seen this before. Joe Crowley's always just going to win. That's how it works, right?"

That's what it was like in 2018. Still, skepticism of AOC, this person a lot of people had not necessarily heard of, and she pulled it off. What that created in Jackson Heights, even at the local level, we gave the city council the first Indian American in Shekar Krishnan. Jessica González-Rojas in the State Assembly ran against the incumbent, and she won. Jessica Ramos, who's been in the news for other reasons, for endorsing Andrew Cuomo, but also a Latina in the state Senate.

Catalina Cruz, who used to be a dreamer also in Albany. Just the sea change of politicians and the diversity within, our having lived in this neighborhood on and off for 25 years, who's at the helm of the parades is really different now than what used to be. I think a lot of voters are energized by that, but you cannot separate their day-to-day economic realities from the identity of that piece.

Amina Srna: It's a great place to leave it, and we leave it there for today. My guest was Mitra Kalita, co-founder of URL Media and CEO and publisher of Epicenter NYC. Mitra, thank you so much for your time.

Mitra Kalita: Thank you, Amina.

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