The Mayoral Candidates Talk Public Safety

Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Now we'll look at one of the top issues in this year's New York City mayoral race, public safety. Why that today? Because yesterday, six candidates sat down for a forum hosted by the Journal Vital City to discuss crime and quality of life in New York City. City Council Speaker Adrienne Adams, who's going to be on tomorrow's show, by the way, for a candidate interview, New York State Senator Jessica Ramos, Comptroller Brad Lander, former comptroller Scott Stringer, attorney Jim Walden, who's running as an independent, and hedge fund manager Whitney Tilson, who's also in the Democratic primary.

Joining me now to discuss what they learned at this forum is Brigid Bergin, WNYC's senior political correspondent, and Reuven Blau, reporter for the news organization The City, who covers criminal justice and the city's prison system. They both got to dole out some questions to the candidates on topics like policing, mental health, homelessness, Rikers and more. Hi, Brigid and Reuven, welcome back to WNYC.

Brigid Bergin: Good morning.

Reuven Blau: Hi. Thanks for having us.

Brian Lehrer: And let's start with the elephant in the room or not in the room. Reuven, none of the candidates who were on yesterday's stage are currently polling at levels that would likely carry them to the top. Andrew Cuomo wasn't there. Eric Adams wasn't there. Zohran Mamdani wasn't there. Why not?

Reuven Blau: You know, the candidates that were state lawmakers, they said that they're busy with the state budget and they had to be kind of in Albany or around or available for that issue. And former Governor Cuomo has not appeared at any of these events at all yet.

Brian Lehrer: So moving on to the issues and the candidates who were there, let's start with policing. Brigid, is it accurate to say that the central tension between the candidates' positions seems to be whether they should invest more money in building up the police force versus "defunding the police?" Was that tension in the room expressed that way?

Brigid Bergin: So I think I would frame it a little differently, Brian. Yes, there was that tension in that with Adrienne Adams and Jessica Ramos, you heard different philosophies that were more about treating the systemic issues. And certainly were not very much about beefing up the size of the police force. But with Brad Lander, Scott Stringer, Whitney Tilson, Jim Walden, although they have more comprehensive plans, a key part of them involves building up the police force either to get back to the headcount, the 35,000 number that is the target now that we are below, or to expand the size of the force, frankly. And so that tension was certainly there. That was part of our conversation. But their plans extend beyond that.

Brian Lehrer: You asked both Scott Stringer and Brad Lander about their flip from supporting defund the police measures to their current stances. Here's Stringer, 14 seconds, answering your question.

Scott Stringer: There was a moment when we were trying to think about how we could actually prevent young people from falling into the criminal justice system. I actually believe that today. So part of this was, how can we redirect some of this money to help kids stay out of trouble?

Brian Lehrer: So what's the inconsistency you spotted in their stances on this issue over time that led you to pose the question?

Brigid Bergin: Yeah, I mean, I think it's something that's been written about, it's something that's been talked about. And I think honestly, you can't have a frank conversation about public safety with these two established public officials. Both were in elected office back-- 2020, 2021, when this issue was really a very central part of the conversation, without asking how both of them could be proposing public safety plans in their bid for mayor now in 2025 that includes increasing the number of NYPD officers.

You heard there in Scott Stringer's answer. Scott Stringer was the city comptroller at the time. In the summer of 2020, obviously was a much different political moment. We're dealing with the aftermath of the death of George Floyd. We are in the heart of the pandemic. There are protests for Black Lives Matter in the city streets. And one of the responses from elected officials was to adopt this language, the defund the police language, that ultimately was about shifting resources away from police departments to other social services.

And so part of the answer for both of them is that we're in a much different political moment, that what we are seeing on the streets and what people, the public, the people who they are representing are saying is that public safety is very important, and they know that policing is a key part of that strategy. And part of what we heard in Lander's answer was, I think a recognition that the rhetoric in that moment has shifted in that their understanding of the way crime and the reaction driven by the pandemic was being felt by voters, they were a little slow to adjust to.

And so there's an acknowledgement there and a new strategy that is not only reliant on policing, but policing is a key part of it. And for Stringer, it's about increasing the size of the force by 3,000 officers. And for Lander, it's very much about addressing these issues, getting to the headcount of 35,000, which is what the department is supposed to be at, and then ensuring that there's more coordination of care between the police department and then other city agencies, so that when you're trying to deal with someone who's having a mental health crisis, that you can get them into housing and then get them to have services, what they describe as wraparound services, so that person is supported and that they are not a danger to themselves or to the public.

Brian Lehrer: So Reuven, did they talk explicitly about sort of the other side of that, the walk and chew gum at the same time approach to policing, which is having enough police officers and doing other things as Brigid was just describing for the social safety net and kind of the root causes of crime, but the other piece of it being to stop mass incarceration and police brutality, because, of course, it was police brutality that brought about the George Floyd era protests, the Black Lives Matter protest after the incident on Staten Island and in Ferguson, Missouri, a few years earlier. So did they address how to rein in the police from their excesses at the same time that they're trying to combat crime in a maybe a higher crime era than there was a decade ago?

Reuven Blau: Yeah, this came up. Especially in relation to the idea that right now the population of Rikers Island has steadily gone up over the last two to three years, which is actually the first time in about a decade, actually close to two decades where that number has gone up. And it actually just surpassed 7,000 a few weeks ago. And within that context, right, the closed Rikers Island plan was initially scheduled to end in 2027. To close Rikers. That's actually pushed off. And at the earliest right now, they're saying it's going to be 2031. And to get to that plan, to make that work, the population has to be down to about 4400.

I got a chance to ask them. I said, "How do you connect hiring more cops with reducing the jail population as well." Because traditionally, when you add more police to the force, they're going to be making more arrests and the number is going to actually go up in the direction-- and Brad Lander and Scott Stringer were actually in their former capacities or current capacities, some of the earliest elected officials to call for the closure of Rikers. And their response ultimately was basically, hey, we think we can add more cops and reduce the jail population. But at the same time that has never happened actually at least in recent history in New York City.

Jim Walden actually specifically kind of said, hey, look, people thought that the world was flat. We can bring on more police and we can at the same time reduce the jail force.

Brian Lehrer: And you mentioned Rikers, Reuven. You asked the candidates about the plan to close Rikers Island, which elicited this response from Adrienne Adams. Fifteen seconds of the city council speaker here.

Adrienne Adams: Rikers Island is a death camp. I think that we can at least agree to that. And removing those individuals who do have mental health issues from Rikers Island will significantly decrease that population.

Brian Lehrer: And there's been reporting on this, Reuven. I think this came from your news organization, The City, about the percentage of people with mental health problems who don't have other places that the city is trying to place them. And so they wind up on Rikers. I'm not sure if that's in addition to people who've actually been arrested, suspected of crimes. But if those with mental health issues are removed from Rikers, where does Speaker Adams, where do the other candidates believe they should be placed or could be placed?

Reuven Blau: Yeah, that's a great question. And also context with Speaker Adams, I think this is sort of-- her history is kind of fascinating. Her mom is a retired correction officer. And when she came in, she was dealing with a solitary confinement bill to limit or strictly reduce the use of solitary confinement on Rikers, a bill that her predecessor had publicly championed. Corey Johnson had said repeatedly that he was going to support and ultimately never brought forth.

And she did. And she actually took a little time. It took about a year and a half, I think about close to two years. But they did pass this bill. It passed. And the mayor, Mayor Adams actually vetoed it. After vetoing it, they overrode the veto. And then he actually signed an executive order to say that, hey, look, we're in an emergency situation. We needed to rely on solitary confinement. And that's actually now being debated in court.

But yeah, as far as the mental illness issue, I think many people have said that Rikers Island serves as a de facto mental health institute where the population, I think it's close to 50%, has some mental health diagnosis, including, I think it's 16 to 20%, a serious mental health diagnosis. And I recently reported of that population, there's roughly 230 people who have failed something called a 730 exam, which is essentially a really baseline test, like psychological evaluation that says are you mentally fit to stand trial? And if you fail this test, ultimately you're supposed to be sent to a state, essentially a secure state hospital outside of Rikers.

You're not supposed to be in a jail facility, but they don't have space, the state does not have space for these people. So they're languishing on Rikers. They're moved around in different areas and they're so mentally not well that they can't stand trial and they definitely on Rikers can't abide by basic rules of orders or commands that they're told to do. And they're really some of the most susceptible people on the island for violence essentially.

And the candidates said, look, there's a need to expand state forensic beds. And if the state can't do it, then ultimately the city should come up with a plan. But they all basically supported the idea of expanding care for this population outside of the jails.

Brian Lehrer: Also on policing. Maybe the most dramatic moment of the forum came during the conversation on Stop and Frisk. Here's Jessica Ramos responding to candidates Jim Walden and Whitney Tilson, who had expressed support for maintaining Stop and Frisk. Here's Senator Ramos.

Jessica Ramos: Stop and Frisk is unconstitutional. That has been established and it is a tool that has been used to abuse the Black and brown and Asian communities in all of the five boroughs in New York City. I shared earlier that I'm someone who's been stopped and frisked. I was 19 years old. It was 1 o'clock in the morning. I was walking down Roosevelt Avenue coming from Manhattan with my girlfriends. And the NYPD decided that it was a great opportunity to stop, not question and emphasis on the frisk. They really just wanted to touch us. And I cannot tell you how traumatizing and life changing that experience is for the 73% of people that have to bear the brunt of figuring out the other 27%. That is not right. At all. And you are unfit to be our mayor if you think so.

Brian Lehrer: Jessica Ramos last night. Reuven, I'll stay with you on this because I know you asked the candidates about an increase in stop and frisk in recent years. Ramos said it's unconstitutional there. Where is this still happening after it was used so aggressively in the Bloomberg administration, then a court did declare it unconstitutional. De Blasio was going to cut back on it anyway. So what is the state of stop and frisk?

Reuven Blau: Yeah, it's a great question. And it's definitely a major issue right now. And once again, back on the mayoral campaign issue, ultimately, the NYPD stops have nearly tripled under Eric Adams. They've actually soared about by 50% in 2024. And there was 25,386 in 2024. By comparison, in 2022, his first year in office, there was 15,000.

And Mayor Adams, before he became mayor, was an outspoken critic about the policy and how damaging it is to people in especially in low income neighborhoods. And during the debate it became a kind of a hot-button issue because I think the latest stats have indicated that about roughly 20 something percent, I think it's a little over 20%, have actually led to some type of criminal case.

And on the panel, some people, some of the-- I think it was Whitney Tilson, had said, hey, look, I think that's actually a good result like we're seeing these stops actually somewhat effective. And he was comparing it to the number of stop and frisks leading to arrests, which was much lower during the Bloomberg administration. And I think the Jessica Ramos reaction and the others really reacted critically about it and saying, look, these numbers are totally off and that if-- they highlighted that a federal judge has pointed out, has ruled, that it's unconstitutional to do these without some type of just cause.

Brian Lehrer: Brigid, you led a section of the mayoral candidates forum last night on crime on the subway. And of course, people will call up these days in their minds,some of the horrific, random attacks in the subways that have made the news so much. Here's Scott Stringer talking about what he calls performative policing on the subways.

Scott Stringer: Look, the first couple of years, the Adams administration was really about performative policing in the subways. Put 1,000 cops in the trains or in the subway stations for a couple of weeks, run up overtime. Overtime went from 650 million to $1.3 billion. Then the overtime is getting too high. You pull the cops back out, you see the same problem over and over again.

Brian Lehrer: So, Brigid, give us some context there. How'd that part of the evening go?

Brigid Bergin: So part of what we wanted to get at is, as you mentioned, there have been these high profile incidents on the subways. Obviously, the woman who was set on fire and died, more than two dozen people who have been pushed onto tracks through assaults or fights in the last year. And in response, Governor Hochul and Mayor Adams have beefed up overtime funding to provide another 1,000 police officers on the subways.

So what I was curious about was, A, would these candidates maintain or increase this police presence on the subways? And if they would, is there anything they would change about their deployment or use of technology, the way they're actually policing underground? And it led to some really interesting responses.

Part of what Stringer said, in addition to that clip we heard, was that he thinks really, the way police officers are currently working, there needs to be an overhaul to how it's managed, that they need to change shifts, that you're not switching between shifts at the same time kids are getting out of school, that you need to be able to provide more childcare support so that some of these officers who join the force younger have an incentive to stay, and that people who are sitting behind desks that could be on patrol are on patrol, that we have more visible presence.

Senator Ramos also similarly talked about how there were all these empty spaces in MTA stations and that there could be better use for those spaces by creating help points, checkpoints that would be able to help connect people with the services they need, mental health services and more, so that those people who are using the subways as shelter could be connected to supportive services.

And Lander also, his idea is again, to try to get more coordination among city agencies. So, yes, maintaining police presence on those stations, but to have those response teams that are able to effectively take someone who is either unsafe for themself or to others, and then connect them to services that might be able to stabilize them and keep them from being in the subways and being a presence there.

So some interesting ideas. I think that stop and frisk moment was so striking, if I could just add, because the decision was making the misuse of stop and frisk unconstitutional, not the use altogether. And so part of what we heard was folks like Jim Walden and Whitney Tilson basically defending it as a viable and important tactic. And someone like Scott Stringer making the point that what we are hearing from people, particularly Senator Ramos, the only Latino in the race, and Adrienne Adams, City Council Speaker, who spoke about the concerns she has for her grandchildren, is when that tactic is used and people are racially targeted.

And that was part of what you were hearing. Senator Ramos was extremely emotional when she was recalling that experience, and I think felt like that was being possibly ignored by some of the candidates who were advocating its use.

Brian Lehrer: Yeah. And obviously there are people who feel safer when there are a lot of police around or on the job, and there are people who feel more potentially threatened when there are a lot of police around. Given that history, is it possible to say for our listeners, Brigid, in simple terms, where that line is between constitutional and unconstitutional use of the stop and frisk technique?

Brigid Bergin: You know, I think that is something that I would defer to a law enforcement expert. But I think that point, this idea that it is blanket unconstitutional, is something that is worth clarifying because since that decision, in conversations with criminal justice advocates and supporters, you do hear people talk about how it can be used when there is just cause, but that when it is misused, it can target populations and leave people with the trauma that we've heard Senator Ramos describe.

Brian Lehrer: Yeah, and I think you basically gave the answer there, which is that there is a line having to do with just cause, with cause for a stop. I'm going to ask you one more thing about policing, either of you. Did it come up that there's difficulty in recruiting police officers right now with all the debate about how many police officers there should be? There have also been stories about it's hard to get people to even sign up to become NYPD officers. Did anybody address that? Reuven?

Reuven Blau: Yeah, it came up. It was some debate about how to handle that and what the issues were. Some of the candidates highlighted that there was a management issue and that that was a-- I think it was Whitney Tilson who pointed out that there's some jurisdictions outside of New York who are literally running campaign ads highlighting come to our force because-- highlighting issues with the NYPD management.

I will say this in context and maybe I'm kind of harkening back to my experience as covering Labor initially as a reporter with the Chief newspaper. This has been an argument for 20 years, that they can't recruit. There was initially a period where they reduced starting salary to like 30 something thousand dollars under Ray Kelly during an arbitration decision.

Ultimately, the pay for cops I think it can get to close to 100,000 after several years, three, four years, I think max five. So you're talking about somebody 25 years old with I think it's 60 college credits making $100,000. Now, look, I know New York City is an expensive place to live, but I do kind of wonder-- that they're talking about the issues of pay. I mean, it's difficult to say, like, how much more money do you want to give officers to work in New York City?

There's always been the issue where the surrounding jurisdictions pay more. But there's also much smaller workforce. It's much more difficult to kind of get hired there. So this has been a challenge I think that the city has faced, that I can remember, for years. I think it also depends on 20 years out, how many people they've hired 20 years ago ultimately. So it is a bit of a complicated calculation.

It came up. Yeah, absolutely. And Adrienne Adams talked about increase increasing pay for officers ultimately as a solution. Some of the candidates talked about rejiggering-- like Scott Stringer talked about rejiggering the scheduling. You know, I think it was Whitney Tilson who talked about the management issues and being more supportive and having management that kind of works better with younger officers.

Brian Lehrer: Reuven Blau, reporter for the news organization The City, who covers criminal justice and the city's prison system, and WNYC's Brigid Bergin, senior political correspondent here. Thank you both very much.

Brigid Bergin: Thanks, Brian.

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