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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now I'll compare the mayoral primary candidates on another policy issue in the race, transportation, traffic and transit, as they say down the dial. This will include bus and subway service as one topic and reducing the 252 traffic deaths in the city last year as another. As I said before the break, remember Vision Zero. It wasn't supposed to be Vision 252. WNYC and Gothamist transportation reporter Stephen Nessen joins us now. He has recent articles examining the Cuomo and Mamdani transit records and proposals, and many over time about safety on the streets. Hey, Stephen, welcome back to the show.

Stephen Nessen: Good morning, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Let's start on mass transit. We'll start on the proposal that's made the most news on that topic, Assemblyman Mamdani's proposal to make all the buses free. We'll play a campaign commercial from him about that. Then a skeptical take from the head of the MTA on this show. Here's the Mamdani commercial. The visual, picture this, folks. It's Mamdani with a big smile on the Staten Island Ferry.

Zohran Mamdani: Take it in. A true icon of New York, the Staten Island Ferry. The Staten Island Ferry is a beacon on the waters of New York City, shuttling about 45,000 people a day. The best part, it's free. For decades after opening in 1898, the Staten Island Ferry was just a nickel. Then in the 1970s, the fare rose to a quarter, and in 1990, 50 cents. Since 1997, the ferry's been free, and New Yorkers have come to know it as a dependable means of transit. It's the best way to see the Statue of Liberty. When people say buses can never be free, don't ask them to take a hike. Ask them to take the ferry. On June 24th, let's get some more free transit.

Brian Lehrer: There's that campaign commercial with the backdrop of the Statue of Liberty. In April on this show, I asked MTA Chairman Janno Lieber what he thought about the idea of free buses. He says he likes that Mamdani is such a supporter of mass transit, but--

Janno Lieber: We tried his idea of free bus on different lines. It actually, most of the additional ridership was identified, cannibalized other lines. You're taking people who are paying on other lines, and they were just getting a free ride, which isn't evil. My basic principle is I want to target our subsidy to people who need it, which is why we support the Fair Fares program so strongly.

Brian Lehrer: MTA chairman and CEO Janno Lieber here on April 24th. Our transportation reporter, Stephen Nessen, is here now. Stephen, Lieber referred to trying the Mamdani free bus plan on different lines. Can you remind us what was tried, when, and where?

Stephen Nessen: The State Assembly-- Actually, in Albany, the Senate and the Assembly both approved this bus pilot. Mamdani was one of the sponsors of that bill. Basically, it offered one free bus line in each borough, so Bronx, Staten Island, Manhattan, Brooklyn. It was just one of-- They chose a relatively busy line, and for just about a year, they offered fare free rides, so anyone could just get on and ride the bus for free. I went out there and did it in the first couple weeks to see who's riding it, what it's like. As you would imagine, it is a bus line, but instead of people stopping to pay the fare, they just get on and get off as they please.

Honestly, most of the people I met, it wasn't like new people who are like, "Oh, the bus is free, I'm going to hop on the bus." Everyone that I spoke to uses that line all the time. I asked them, "Is this going to save you real money?" A lot of workers, a lot of families, they were like, "Yes, I don't need to buy a 30-day pass anymore. I'm just going to ride the bus for free." For a lot of people, it saved hundreds of dollars. As you heard MTA chair Janno Lieber saying, and I've heard the MTA say it many times, they weren't a fan of this.

I think part of it is he was saying it doesn't necessarily-- like I experienced, it doesn't translate into more subway riders, for example. It's just people who ride the bus already are just going to keep riding the bus, but just not pay. They don't see any benefit to their system of having more people riding the bus for free if they're not going to also maybe use some of the other services. There are other concerns he had, but that speaks to one of them.

Brian Lehrer: Is there data to either confirm or refute that concern? If he says it cannibalized, his word, other lines, it wasn't allowing many more low-income people to get where they're going. It just allowed paying customers to ride for free. The MTA needs those fares to fund the reduced fare program for those who need it. Do you have reporting? Does anyone that supports or refutes that cannibalizing other lines claim?

Stephen Nessen: The MTA put out a relatively slim report after this pilot, I think, as they were required to do. It doesn't get so deep into those details, but it looks at, "Were new riders created by this, and what happened on adjacent lines?" One of the things they found, or they were hoping, maybe they were fearing, I don't know, but fare evasion on other routes. The free bus, no one needs to fare evade because it's free, but they were worried, I suppose, that other people might carry on with their free rides on other lines. They found fare evasion did go up in surrounding lines. I don't know if it's clear if it's subway and bus, but that was one of their concerns, is that people will just believe everything should be free after that.

Brian Lehrer: What exactly is Assemblyman Mamdani proposing now, and has he costed it out or are there independent estimates?

Stephen Nessen: Sure. He worked with Charles Komanoff, a brilliant economist who I'm sure is a dedicated Brian Lehrer listener. I know for a fact he is, who helped create the plan for congestion pricing, which I think everyone agrees has been a great success. That's really, I think, one of his strongest bona fides. He worked with the same economists to come up with what would happen if buses were free. The economists found it would save people $1.5 billion worth of their time. Buses would actually move 12% faster than they do now because people aren't stopping to pay the fare.

They roughly believe that with 630, I believe, million dollars, they could do this and offer free bus rides across the city on every line. The way that Mamdani is saying he's going to pay for it is through this tax package, which I think you've probably heard about before. He wants to bring in $10 billion a year by taxing New York City's wealthiest 2%. He wants a tax hike on the wealthiest New Yorkers. I should say the New Yorkers making more than a million dollars a year. As I'm sure you've also spoken about, that would require approval from state lawmakers. It's not necessarily a guarantee. As part of that $10 billion that he wants to generate, he would use that to fund the free bus pilot, or the free buses, excuse me.

Brian Lehrer: I want to also mention that your article on Mamdani and his proposal-- I bring this up because it's getting so much less press than free buses. Your article reminds us that his campaign has also called for installing more than 30 miles of new bus lanes each year, which is required by a 2019 city law that, you write, Mayor Eric Adams has ignored since taking office. What's that law, and how can the mayor just ignore it?

Stephen Nessen: That is the question. It's part of the Streets Master Plan. It was signed during the de Blasio administration, I believe, and it has all these requirements for what the city needs to do each year. Not just installing bus lanes, but also bike lanes. There's a whole bunch of other things in there that would improve street safety. It's true Adams has fallen way, way short of the requirement. What is the penalty for it? I think that's up to the City Council to decide. I don't think they have necessarily begun doing any penalties for missing those deadlines.

We did ask the Mamdani camp because, as transit reporters, we know one thing the mayor can do to speed up buses is install more bus lanes. We asked them, are you going to do anything in that regard? Because it's not actually on any of the platform stuff we've seen online for Mamdani. His spokesperson said, "Oh, yes, we're going to do more than the 30 miles required each year."

Brian Lehrer: If enforcement is up to the City Council on installing those bus lanes, I guess that's a good question for a mayoral candidate named Adams, not Eric. On Andrew Cuomo, your article on the free buses proposal says Cuomo supports a return of the Mamdani bus pilot. That hasn't gotten much press. You mean he wants to rerun the experiment?

Stephen Nessen: That's what it sounds like. They got the results. Like I said, some people really liked it who happened to be on those routes. Yes, it's redoing the pilot, or I guess maybe he's going to offer it to a different line. I don't know. I haven't heard any further elaboration on that.

Brian Lehrer: Interestingly, we have a few texts coming in from people who say the experiment was poorly designed to get the maximum positive potential result for what free buses could bring. Listener writes, "Why didn't they try doing multiple lines in one area or for a shorter time period? Of course, making one route free will encourage people to try it, move off other lines." I don't expect you to have an answer to that, just interesting that a few people are texting things like that, which says if they were to try it again, they could do it other ways that maybe would produce at least what some listeners think would be more meaningful results.

Stephen Nessen: I don't really have-- I would say, I think part of the issue with that also is that I don't think the MTA necessarily came up with the idea. It was state lawmakers. They had to carry out this plan that they didn't necessarily help craft.

Brian Lehrer: You also have an article called Recounting Andrew Cuomo's Great New York City Subway Fumble. What are you calling a great subway fumble?

Stephen Nessen: Brian, I'm sure you and several listeners will remember what we fondly referred to as the Summer of Hell in 2017. That was when subway service was just at abysmal levels. I think we all-- Anyone that was in New York at that time certainly remembers there were delays and people getting fired from jobs because the subway was so unreliable. In fact, subway service was just at an incredible all-time low for the recent era. There were breakdowns. Most famously, I think, was this F train that was stuck in the station because the doors were jammed, and it was hot, and the windows were covered in condensation, and there were hands trying to get out. It looked like a horror movie.

The reason we call it the Summer of Hell, the reason all those breakdowns happened, a lot of people, a lot of experts, even the MTA, to a certain extent, acknowledges that a lot of resources that were supposed to go into subway maintenance, maintaining, keeping the subways in a state of good repair, a lot of those resources and that money was diverted to opening the Second Avenue subway on time. Those are the three new subway lines. Those were one of Cuomo's crowning achievements. One of the things he's most proud of is getting this project over the finish line, where it had stalled for so many years. It came at a great cost to everyday New Yorkers who relied on the subway.

I think that's where we begin. There are many examples we can go into about those problems. I will just say on-time performance for the subway was really, really low. I think just below 60%, just barely above 50%. Now we're at 84%. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: We will continue with transportation reporter Stephen Nessen in a minute, and we'll go on to the other topic on this subject of the candidates and transportation. We'll talk about Vision Zero, how to reduce the 252 traffic deaths last year. Have an interesting exchange between Scott Stringer and Brad Lander, and a clip of Adrienne Adams. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer: Lehrer on WNYC as we talk about traffic and transit as issues in the New York City Democratic mayoral primary with our transportation reporter, Stephen Nessen. Moving on to safe streets and 252 traffic deaths last year. So many years after Mayor de Blasio launched the Vision Zero program. I got to ask the question about that at the debate last week. I'll replay two clips. Here's an exchange between Scott Stringer and Brad Lander. Stringer speaks first.

Scott Stringer: Look, I think that we have to own up to the fact that Vision Zero needs a lot more vision and a lot more safety protocols in place. We need to have dedicated bike lanes, but we also have to have zero tolerance for people who are abusing this privilege and using bikes and e-bikes on the sidewalks. You can be pro-transit, pro-bike lane, but also pro-safety. We put kids' lives in danger and seniors. I would certainly revisit education and making sure we have zero tolerance for that interference to reduce deaths.

The other thing I want to just say as an elected official, we have a lot of elected officials. My friend Brad is one of them that goes to every Vision Zero press conference and then talks about the tragedies that befall these kids, but yet racks up speeding tickets and then says, "I'm sorry." We have got to, as mayor, say to the politicians who get the placards, "I will pull those placards if you show up at a Vision Zero press conference, and you violate that right.

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Lander, your response to that, and your answer to the question.

Brad Lander: Yesterday, I was proud to be endorsed by StreetsPAC, which is the set of people who have been fighting against traffic violence for decades. I haven't gotten a speeding ticket in four years.

Scott Stringer: That's good.

Brad Lander: Scott Stringer can talk all he wants. [crosstalk] What I will do-- This is my time, Scott. What I will do is re-implement-- I passed as a City Council member the Reckless Driver Accountability Act, which looked at those folks who are the most reckless drivers, the most speed violations, the most red light violations-

Scott Stringer: You were on the list.

Brad Lander: -and would impound their car unless they actually started to improve. Eric Adams let it expire, even though there's good evidence it was working. I'll expand it to make sure it's in all of our traffic courts. Get it back in place. Vision Zero, we can have in New York City zero traffic deaths, that's infrastructure improvements on our streets, and that's holding reckless drivers accountable.

Brian Lehrer: That excerpt from last week's debate, I'll play one more clip, then we'll talk about both. This is from Adrienne Adams' response.

Adrienne Adams: The thing that no one is speaking about when you're looking at planning, there is a city agency that is responsible for that. They are called the DOT. As leader of the City Council, we have been in oversight with the DOT many, many, many times. As one of my colleagues mentioned, they are not in compliance with the Streets Master Plan. The agency entrusted by the mayor of the city of New York is not in compliance. We have had hearing after hearing after hearing. The bottom line is that DOT needs some tweaking in order for us to get this right.

My commissioner as mayor would be one that is able to handle the work put before him or her to do the work that the Department of Transportation is mandated to do for the people of the city of New York. They wanted the responsibility to keep New Yorkers safe. As mayor, it would be my responsibility to make sure that they are in compliance.

Brian Lehrer: Adrienne Adams at our debate. Our transportation reporter, Stephen Nessen, is here now. Stephen, Speaker Adams, and before her in that section, she referred to it, Assemblymember Mamdani mentioned the city not being in compliance with the Streets Master Plan. What is the Streets Master Plan, and especially as it pertains to curbing traffic deaths?

Stephen Nessen: The Streets Master Plan, I believe, was really developed under Speaker Corey Johnson, and it really lays out this blueprint for the city's Department of Transportation for the kinds of things they should be accomplishing every year. It has a whole bunch of things, from redesigning intersections to how many lanes of bus mile. How many miles of bus lanes should be installed each year? How many miles of bike lanes should be installed each year? All of this is in coordination and helping the city achieve that Vision Zero goal.

That is, Vision Zero, Member de Blasio launched it. Your guest, who you just had on there, with the goal of eventually reducing traffic deaths in New York City to zero, which, as you mentioned at the top of this segment, over 250 deaths last year. We're not even close to it. The idea is that through better street design, you can reduce and eliminate all traffic deaths. It has happened in much, much smaller cities than New York City. Other cities around the world have achieved this, and I think New York City is a great goal to have, but it is a complicated city, and as all the candidates have different ways of trying to achieve it, I think points to the fact that it is very hard and complicated to redesign streets in New York City.

Brian Lehrer: In the Stringer and Lander exchange, by the way, Stringer said Lander had so many speeding tickets he would be on that list of so-called super speeders. Is that true about Lander?

Stephen Nessen: Yes, Lander unfortunately had a slew of speeding tickets. I think he no longer does. I know the New York Post was all over this story, but even Streetsblog, of course, has covered it as well. He did have some on multiple occasions, but I haven't checked his latest. I don't have his license plate number handy to look up for you at this moment.

Brian Lehrer: He said not in four years. Maybe that's when the New York Post reported the story, and he-- I don't know if that's when his behavior changed.

Stephen Nessen: Yes, I think it's back in 2022, he had--

Brian Lehrer: It's more or less around that. Lastly, on the topic of e-bikes, mopeds, and scooters, yes, cars are responsible for the overwhelming percentage of traffic deaths and injuries, but you know that so many New Yorkers feel terrorized by all these motor vehicle two wheelers that don't obey red lights and one way streets nearly as much as cars do. Do any candidates stand out or especially clash on how to reduce that risk to pedestrians while still respecting the ability of delivery workers to make a living?

Stephen Nessen: I don't have every candidate's programs handy, but I do note Brad Lander, as he said, was endorsed by StreetsPAC and has an extremely thorough 29-page transportation policy platform. He does include cracking down on illegal e-bikes and investing in infrastructure like wider bike lanes that might help create a little more room for these bikes to operate more safely. Also holding the companies that hire them, making them be a little more accountable, perhaps even trying to regulate the apps a little more, and incentivizing safer biking through some licensing program. I don't have all the details on that.

Brian Lehrer: WNYC and Gothamist transportation reporter Stephen Nessen. Stephen, thanks as always.

Stephen Nessen: Thank you, Brian.

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