Title: The Long-Promised Second Avenue Subway Extension

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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. It's been called the line that almost never was. Do you know what I'm talking about? It's the Second Avenue subway. After decades of fits, starts, and dashed hopes, it seems to be finally back on track, at least the northernmost part. The MTA has approved a nearly $2 billion contract to extend the Q line into East Harlem with tunneling, new stations at 116th and 125th streets, and a 700 tunnel boring machine slated to begin work in 2027.

Now, this long overdue extension could serve 110,000 riders daily, they say, and also jumpstart the neighborhood's economy to another level, but it comes with a staggering $7.7 billion price tag, we're told, one of the costliest per mile subway projects ever, anywhere, and it raises important concerns about displacement for some longtime East Harlem residents. Maybe that's the most controversial piece right now. Helping us make sense of it all is Ramsey Khalifeh, transportation reporter at WNYC and Gothamist, on the New York City Accountability Desk, and part of our On the Way transportation team. Hey, Ramsey, welcome back to the show. Always good to have you.

Ramsey: Hey, good morning, Brian.

Brian: Listeners, we invite your calls, especially in this case, if you live in East Harlem. What's your reaction to the Second Avenue subway or to the prospect of it finally coming to that station near you? Do you see it as a long-awaited benefit? Are you more concerned about disruption, even the cost? 212-433-WNYC, call or text, 212-433-9692. You don't have to be from East Harlem, but obviously, if you are, it's especially relevant. What exactly did the MTA board approve this month, Ramsey?

Ramsey: Here's what it is. There's multiple contracts that the MTA needs to award to actually finish this thing for the second phase. What they did last week was approve a contract for tunnel boring. It's not boring. It's actually very interesting, but that costs alone, just that portion of this work, $2 billion. Essentially, what they're doing is boring a new tunnel between 120th and 125th Street. They're rehabilitating a tunnel that's 10 blocks long that was built in the 1970s and abandoned. If you want to get into the history, we can get into that a bit later.

Then they're also boring out or digging up two stations, one at 116th and a new one at 125th Street. There's a third station that's a part of this project, but that's still in the procurement phase. It's in a different contract. Essentially, what this drums up to being is it's the most significant step in the second phase of this project. It's a lot of money, and there's a lot of work that will be done as a result of the money that was awarded for this. That's everything that was approved just last week.

Brian: I'm glad I resisted the boring, not-boring jokes that you could make.

Ramsey: [chuckles] There's going to be a lot of them.

Brian: I mentioned 116th Street and 125th Street. I think there's one more station being planned. Where's that one?

Ramsey: That's what I was just mentioning. That's at 106th Street. It's in a different contract, so it's still in the procurement phase. You can expect that to be awarded in, I think, the next couple of years. It's three new stations total, extending the Q line from 96th Street, going all the way up Second Avenue, and then turning westwards to East 125th Street on Lexington Avenue. That's the total project. Right now, we just have two stations and a tunnel.

Brian: Some East Harlem residents I see have already received eminent domain notices, which means, I guess, the government taking over their property for public purposes or forcibly buying them out. Explain what's happening.

Ramsey: There's actually a lot of different perspectives here that are important to decipher from. First of all, there's displacement of people who rent apartments. What that means is the MTA approaches them and they say, "You have to leave at a certain date. We're buying the building that you live in." What that means for the landlord is that the landlord will, through a legal process, find a value that they feel is right, that they feel is the market, and then they'll sell it to the MTA.

They're getting a big payout in cash, but it's the renters, especially in a place like East Harlem, that is one of the poorest neighborhoods in Manhattan. The market is always growing. We always talk about housing as one of the biggest issues in the city because it's just so expensive to rent these days. They're the ones who are in a more difficult situation, and I met a lot of these families, mostly because what the MTA is offering them is we'll help pay for your moving costs. If you need a broker's fee and a moving truck and a crew of people to get you to your new spot, we'll cover those costs. We'll also give you a real estate agent who can help find you new places.

A lot of what I learned through a couple of families, specifically on a building on Second Avenue, I believe the address is 2242. They're right next to where the 116th Street Station will be. They're telling me that they have two problems. One, either the apartments that the MTA is offering are too expensive, or two, the ones that are within their budget are just too small. A lot of these newer developments of buildings typically get cut up into smaller apartments, so it's harder to fit bigger families.

I specifically spoke with the Diego family. They live on Second Avenue, and they're currently going through this. That's the difference in the types of displacement we're going to see. There's the landlords who are getting a payout. There's the renters who, hey, you have to enter this housing market that you probably haven't been in for decades, and you're going to have to navigate through a very expensive and a very difficult market. Ideally, you want to live in your same neighborhood. You might have to go somewhere else.

Brian: What rights do those tenants have, and what kind of legal action or challenges do you anticipate if not already being seen filed?

Ramsey: I'm not exactly sure about the rights that they have in this regard because eminent domain is a very powerful government, I guess, action that they can take. In the first phase, there was a lot of delays because of the legal process to, I guess, finalizing a price on, let's say, somebody who owns property. That goes through a process. I actually spoke with a real estate development lawyer. He deals with cases like this.

He said it's the interest of the MTA in order to have, I guess, a smooth process here to get the project going to settle with a landlord, a property owner, before ever going to court. If they don't, then what happens is the MTA gets their own appraisal, the landlord gets their own appraisal, they go to a judge, and then they essentially argue what the best price is. That could take months. It could take a lot of time. The MTA is now acquiring 10 properties as we speak. They're in the legal process, and we're waiting to see what's going to come of that.

I actually spoke with the landlord of the Diego family's building, and he was extremely frustrated. I asked for a comment on a follow-up story I did, and he says I don't know what's happening. I don't trust the MTA. I don't understand what's going on. Not to say that the process hasn't been clear, but I think there is a lot of frustration. In that case, it might be a couple months where his team of lawyers and their team of lawyers just have to settle this in court.

Brian: Here's, I think, a really thoughtful text from a listener in the neighborhood. Listener writes, "I'm a long-time East Harlem resident for three generations, and they've been talking about this train line since the '80s. It's wild to think it might actually happen now, and seeing the construction happen in the neighborhood on 106th Street. I know in my family, it always felt like a promise to East Harlem that was always being pushed back. Now that it's happening, when there's been so much change in the neighborhood, I'm worried about how it's going to change even more, especially with the backdrop of so many huge condo buildings going up in the neighborhood, but East Harlem really needs the access." Ramsey, you hear the conflictedness there, right?

Ramsey: Oh, yes, and that's something that I've heard from so many people. I really spend a lot of time up in East Harlem just speaking with people who really have some of these nuanced opinions. This is something that's been promised to them for so long. Now that it's coming and now that other outside factors like gentrification and the housing market are coming into play, when this project gets done and the timeline for it to be completed, at least the second phase, is 2032, let's say we get there on time, who is it ultimately going to serve?

Is it the lifelong residents who have been waiting for this? If they do stay, then here we go. We have a new train line. Maybe outside investors feel like East Harlem is a place where we want to put our foot and we want to invest in because there's accessible transit. In that question of gentrification, the housing market will always respond to proximity to public transportation. You can think of just the Yale train and Williamsburg. It really goes hand in hand.

People want to see the benefits because they've struggled from being underserved for disinvestments for years. If this comes, what happens before that? A lot of people are conflicted. Some people I've talked to say that I don't really care about what happens. I need to see improvements in my neighborhood. They feel like this is the first step.

Brian: Here's somebody less conflicted who texts, "The poorest congressional district in the country is about 0.5 mile away." That's the Bronx district represented by Ritchie Torres. "They will be pushing people from Harlem into the Bronx, Hunts Point, for the sake of 'accessibility for gentrifiers' once they can't afford to live right where their building used to stand." That's one side of what we heard from the other texter. How much are you hearing that in the neighborhood?

Ramsey: In part of my reporting I've done the last few months, there was a person I spoke with who's a director of this Caribbean Cultural Institute right on East 125th Street on Lexington Avenue. That's where the train will end up. She was very clear and very blunt about who this is for. She also says that gentrification means a bunch of new people who've never lived in East Harlem who now think it's a cool neighborhood will come here.

Somebody from the Regional Plan Association also told me you often think of gentrification as, hey, this brand new coffee shop just opened up here, and a lot of people think it's really fun and hip, and now new people move in. That's what happens after. The first step, which is government investment, it's building a new train line, it's housing development corporations, major developers, let's build a bunch of new skyscrapers and modern homes. Those are major investments, and gentrifiers coming and are just people who feel like they want to reap the benefits of a new, fun place. That sentiment really does exist [crosstalk].

Brian: We could go back 100 years, maybe more, to see the history of how good access to transportation increases property values in an area, whether it's 60, 70 years ago, building out the Long Island Expressway to different neighborhoods on Long Island, boom, they were worth more. You can look at the subway map and then look at real estate prices closer to or further away from subway stations, and transportation access drives property values, and there's that double-edged sword.

Ramsey: Absolutely. You can think of neighborhoods far east in Queens that are considered transit deserts, or South Brooklyn. It's easier, I guess, if you had an apartment. The prices are just cheaper, and some people are dependent on cars, and that's a different cost that they have to take on, but it's definitely how the city has developed over the years.

Brian: Renee in Manhattan is calling about the cost of extending the Second Avenue subway to 125th Street. Hi, Renee. You're on WNYC.

Renee: Good morning. Although the convenience sounds great, I was just wondering why aren't they thinking logically? Take $1 billion and just shore up what we have, 28th Street, constantly flooding. What is the result of the flooding? Moles. 181st Street, I think it's the worst station in our transit system.

Brian: Which line?

Renee: Why aren't they thinking logically?

Renee: 181st Street.

Brian: On which line?

Renee: Oh, on the 1 line. I'm sorry.

Brian: Thank you.

Renee: I was recently visiting a friend who was sick, and I took that line. I couldn't believe it. It was the first time I ever got off that station, and I couldn't believe the time it took for me to get on ground, as opposed to being underground for about 20 minutes waiting for elevators.

Brian: Renee, thank you. Do they have this debate, when they have $7.7 billion, which is the projected cost of this Second Avenue subway extension, to play with, maybe that's two flips saying play with? Do you know, as a transportation reporter, if they're debating, "Is this better used to extend the Second Avenue subway three stops or to shore up some of the kinds of problems," like Renee is citing?

Ramsey: Look, I've heard that type of criticism across the board from people who hear that the MTA is spending more than $7 billion on a single project, three stations, just to extend a single line. There's more to it because the MTA is at the stage where they're not only investing in brand new, big, shiny projects like this. The Interborough Express is another one that they've just announced. They're also doing a lot of these infrastructure upgrades. That money essentially comes in different piles.

Stephen Nessen and I, my colleague here at WNYC, the other transportation reporter, we did a story back in January, a series of stories about the state of the MTA's infrastructure and a lot of that was a response to was, this is how far we've gone with kicking the bucket down the road, at least the MTA has done for many years. We haven't improved infrastructure on tracks, on signals. A lot of their latest five-year construction plan, that's something that they shore up together, capital investments that the MTA wants to make every five years.

The latest one, which starts this year and ends in 2029, is making investments into electrical systems, into new modern signals, which will make trains move faster and communicate better with each other. Specifically, I heard the caller mention 28th Street. I've been there. I've always reported whenever there are floods, it essentially goes underwater. They're building new infrastructure that can be more climate resilient as climate change progresses.

I hear that criticism, and it's very valid because right now, we feel that the system is old, while we are hearing the governor, we're hearing the head of the MTA, Jan Oliver, say we need to put billions into this. They're coming from different piles. Some of it's congestion pricing, some of it are grants that the Biden administration in 2022 gave to the MTA through the bipartisan infrastructure bill. They're really coming from different places, and the MTA, through the state government, says they are allocating money for more immediate infrastructure investments that the caller was frustrated about.

Brian: For people who weren't there or didn't see the videos after that recent big rainstorm, that 28th Street station we're talking about is also on the number 1 line, where-

Ramsey: Yes, 1 line.

Brian: -it looked like Niagara Falls for a little while. A couple more texts, listener, "My take on the eminent domain is that people are being forced out of their homes, are going to seek affordable housing elsewhere, where transportation may not be as good." That's an irony. Another listener says, "Boo hoo, the Lower East Side used to be a cesspool of tenements. Brownstone, Brooklyn, was once a place to flee. The city is constantly transforming. These few old-time residents need to squeeze the city for the most possible and bully for them."

Let's see, one more asks, and then we're going to run out of time, so I'm going to ask you a two-part question here. Listener asks, "Will it connect to the 6 train? I do see that there's talk eventually of linking the line pretty far west to that St. Nicholas Avenue location where the A, B, C, and D trains all go, more on the west side." Is that actually a thought from Second Avenue?

Ramsey: Oh, yes. It's something that was really interesting to hear about more recently. Just to that first part of the question, yes, the Second Avenue extension will turn west towards East 125th Street. There's a current station there on Lexington Avenue, so where the 4, 5, 6 runs. That new station will be connected to the current station. Yes, you'd be able to transfer onto the 6 line. This whole westward expansion, this is something that we've brought up.

Just quick history, the original plan, the four phases of the Second Avenue subway, was kind of drummed up 20 years ago when the city was like, "Let's take this seriously." Second phase now is East Harlem, third would go down Second Avenue to Houston Street, and then the fourth phase would go to the Financial District.

Now it seems like they're toying with the idea of, "Why don't we keep the tunnel boring machine on East 125th Street and Lex when we finish the project, and why don't we consider maybe boring out a tunnel west across 125th Street?" You could connect to the 2 and 3 lines in Central Harlem. You could connect to the A, B, C, and D on the west side of Harlem, essentially turning what we've known as the Second Avenue subway to the 125th Street crosstown line. That's very early. Those are just conversations being had. A lot of reporters like myself have asked the MTA, and they said, "This is something worth thinking about, but it's too soon to really talk about it."

Brian: We'll give this listener pretty much the last word in a text that says, "My mother saved the New York Times from the day I was born in 1970. There's a front-page story on it about funding finally being approved for the Second Avenue subway."

Ramsey: Oh, yes.

Brian: Did you ever see that article?

Ramsey: I didn't see that article, but I can be sure to know what happened right after that was the city's financial crisis in the mid-1970s. They started building a tunnel, and that's the 10 blocks of tunnel that we have now, between 110th and 120th. Just like every other public service sector in New York City, disinvestment everywhere. It really shut down the project. The fiscal crisis really did a lot.

Brian: Ramsey Khalifeh, transportation reporter at WNYC and Gothamist on the New York City Accountability Desk. Thanks for sharing your reporting with us.

Ramsey: Thank you, Brian.

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