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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good Monday morning, everyone. If you took the weekend off from the news, and who could blame you with this weekend's weather, right? You missed the two last-ditch efforts in Albany to keep the MTA's improvement plan funded after Governor Kathy Hochul's 11th-hour bombshell last week, you know the bombshell, putting on pause congestion pricing tolls that were supposed to take effect at the end of the month, June 30th, from four driving into Manhattan below 60th street.

She had opposition from a wide spectrum of voices, from the Teachers Union to the Automobile Dealers Association, from Governor Murphy in New Jersey to Republicans and Democrats running for Congress in the suburbs. You probably didn't spend Friday night watching the governor's news conference in which he was asked to define pause.

Governor Kathy Hochul: This is on pause. Yes, it is on pause. I don't know how to define pause other than it's a pause, meaning it's not happening June 30th, therefore it's paused.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. How long a pause? Don't ask me. I'm only the governor. We'll play a clip of her explaining two of them, really, why she did this coming up, but let's drill down for a minute on what this means for now for mass transit. The anticipated revenue from congestion pricing was enabling a $15 billion bond for MTA improvements. Forget about that bond now without the revenue stream. What does this mean? Won't happen for mass transit users in the city and the suburbs? Well, Crain's New York Business has the following list of five big things that won't happen as scheduled.

Second Avenue subway completion, Long Island railroad improvements, for example, Crain cites a report from the state comptroller's office saying that at Penn Station, all Long Island railroad platforms are in, "poor or marginal condition." Also stalled now, according to Crain's, the plan to replace 3900 worn out subway cars over the next 20 years. Upgrading the signal system, a big priority after frequent delays in recent years were blamed on the aging signal system and the plan to buy 7800 more modern and all-electric buses.

That list doesn't even include another big one, especially for people who use wheelchairs and strollers and things, and that is adding a lot more elevators at a lot more subway stations. All these things will be stopped or slowed because congestion pricing was going to account for more than half the projected capital budget from the numbers that I've seen. There are some details below the headlines. I just wanted to get those on the table because we have the luxury of time to go that far into it.

The MTA is now scrambling to revise its budget, and if you didn't follow the news over the weekend, you also missed that the state legislature adjourned for the year without passing either of two alternative funding plans that the governor gave them to cover the gap temporarily. A payroll tax hike for New York City businesses or a kind of IOU for a billion dollars to be paid for somehow to be determined, but that could let the MTA keep going on all that work for the next year anyway. Okay, brief.

What happens now for mass transit, for climate? Will it affect those crucial congressional races? Let's try to talk to a key member of the legislature for some answers. Senate Finance Committee Chair Liz Krueger of Manhattan. Her district is on the Upper east side, down to about Union Square. Senator, always good to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

State Senator Liz Krueger: Thank you, Brian, and thank you for taking on this incredibly complicated and dangerous story.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and we know, by the way, that almost no issue explodes the phones on this show like congestion pricing. This is one where I don't have to give out the phone number before people find their way to us. Let me give out the phone number. 212-433-WNYC. Proponents welcome to call in. Opponents welcome to call in. Those willing to say you're ambivalent. Are people willing to say you're ambivalent about anything these days? 212-433-WNYC. Now's your chance to talk to or ask a question of a leader in the state legislature where this latest New York political drama is playing out with the governor.

212-433-WNYC for State Senator Liz Krueger. 212-433-9692. Right to the latest, what I guess are the latest developments. Did you support either the payroll tax increase or the billion-dollar IOU to keep mass transit improvements on track for the next year? The governor gave you those two alternatives for the moment to congestion pricing?

State Senator Liz Krueger: No, sir, I did not. We already know that the residents of New York City pay radically more for public transportation than people in the other seven MTA counties, and of course, congestion pricing would have been shared by New Jersey, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, people coming in and all 12 counties. I did not support that, and by the way, you still don't resolve the major environmental issues within congestion pricing by any alternatives, and no, I did not support an IOU because frankly, I don't even understand what an IOU legally means and why anybody would bond money based on an IOU.

I actually think the bond market wants verification of how it's going to get itself paid back. Not accepting a three sentence note. I didn't even think that was legal or legitimate, and pretty much my entire conference and the Senate agreed, and apparently the assembly also agreed. We didn't do either bad proposal. Because with all due respect, we just need the governor to say, "Oh, I made a mistake." I make mistakes every day, Brian, I don't know about you.

Brian Lehrer: Every day.

State Senator Liz Krueger: Every day. The bigger you get in government, the bigger the mistakes can be, but I think it's completely legitimate to say, I didn't quite understand the ramifications, the laws that would be broken, the 15 years of work and effort that went into getting to this point in history, the danger to congestion, the danger to the MTA's capital plan, and so she keeps saying it's a pause, and nobody seems to, as you pointed out, know what that exactly means. I suggest the pause can end today and we can go forward--

Brian Lehrer: Well, the governor doesn't apparently think that she made a mistake. Here's another clip of her in which she explains some of the reasons for this 11th-hour reversal. This runs about a minute, but we want to give her her say here and listen to some of this list of reasons then Senator we'll get your reaction on the other side.

Governor Kathy Hochul: As I said in my remarks two days ago, New Yorkers tell me they're just not ready right now for congestion pricing, and the closer we got to the June 30 implementation date, I heard from more and more anxious New Yorkers that this would be a real hardship for them, working and middle class families who can't afford an additional $15 a day toll when they're simply trying to go to their jobs.

I'm talking about teachers and first responders, our firefighters, police, the small business owners, the bodega shops, the theater workers, the laborers, and the small business owners who are desperately afraid they'll either lose their customers who may come in from places like New Jersey and outside Manhattan, who are also worried about the cost being having to be pushed on to their own customers when the cost goes up for their deliveries.

Brian Lehrer: That was the governor again from her Friday night news conference. How much of that do you disagree with? And I'll note that she mentioned many different kinds of constituencies who were not happy about this.

State Senator Liz Krueger: Again, [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Sorry, we had your mic down for a second. Start that answer over. I apologize.

State Senator Liz Krueger: Okay, so half of my district is in the zone, half of it is out. Of course there are people who don't want to pay more. Who wants to pay more? No one. No one wants to pay taxes, and yet they have to pay taxes. Only 3% of the people who come into the zone every day are actually driving. It's a relatively small percentage of anyone's constituents who are driving into the zone on a regular basis.

Brian Lehrer: It's interesting, by the way, on that point, I'll just elaborate, because I was reading a lot when I wasn't out in the sunshine about this over the weekend, and one of the stats that I saw in Newsday, which is, of course, Long Island's newspaper, 90% of the commuters into Manhattan for work from Long Island already take mass transit.

State Senator Liz Krueger: Correct, and the goal of congestion pricing is to decrease the number of people who are choosing to drive into Manhattan and assuring that we have a 21st century mass transit system where they can take subways and buses. I want to emphasize,, and you said it in your opening, this money is for projects that we've already committed to, that we've already started. Now we're going to lose our federal match money because we're not going forward with congestion pricing, and we're leaving the MTA with this enormous hole in a capital plan that technically only has a year left because these are projects from the ending five-year capital plan.

We have to come up with billions more for the next five-year plan in order to keep the MTA moving into the 21st century. Another reason an IOU for a billion dollars a year that no one could explain would've been incredibly bad financial and fiduciary decision making.

Brian Lehrer: Let me follow up on what we heard from the governor in the clip, because it goes to the wide range of groups on left and right politically that seemed to form the opposition coalition. I mentioned some of this in the intro. The Teachers Union teamed up with the right-wing Staten Island Borough president for one lawsuit. First time they probably ever smiled at each other. The Automobile Dealers Association, which has long supported Hochul with campaign donations and is about to hold another fundraiser, no surprise, but also Democrats trying to take back those suburban congressional seats so crucial to majority control at the national level.

For example, I'll give you two examples because I dug into this. Laura Gillen running on Long Island against Republican Congressman Anthony D'Esposito in District 4. Gillen tweeted this after the governor's announcement last week, "This is a welcome step in the right direction. As I've said from the start, congestion pricing would be yet another tax on middle class workers and commuters and Long Island simply can't afford it, especially now."

Also Mondaire Jones, the former congressman trying to win back a seat from Republican Mike Lawler north of the city. In March Jones said, "This congestion pricing plan would be devastating for hardworking lower Hudson Valley residents who need to commute into the city. I have been clear from day one that there must be exemptions for communities like my hometown of Rockland without adequate public transportation infrastructure." That's a long way around to say that's a bunch of strange bedfellows that shows the breadth of opposition. Answer however you want, and then tell us who's in your pro congestion pricing coalition?

State Senator Liz Krueger: It's a lot of spin. I love the political storylines. First off, the Republicans are going to make total hay of this during the elections and claim, "Look what they did. They got the governor in that ridiculous democratic party to reverse herself." We're actually giving the Republicans an opportunity to spin for themselves in the congressional races come November on Long Island and the Hudson Valley. Two, for those of your listeners who are as old as I am, and you are, Brian. Remember 1999, that's when Albany did the same thing.

It was the commuter tax debacle. A bunch of Democrats, I wasn't in the legislature then, decided they would win elections in the suburbs if they ended the commuter tax. No one was even complaining about the commuter tax. They decided to end it. They won absolutely zero seats. In fact, if we hadn't ended the commuter tax, New York City and its public transit system would have $19 billion more since 1999, and we wouldn't be in as much of a problem as we are.

My coalition, it's not mine, but the coalition of people urging the governor to reverse includes, I think every group in the environmental community, every group who's been working on transportation planning and city planning for decades, the major business groups, the New York City partnership, REBNY, I think every newspaper op-ed, I've read Newsday Cranes, Daily News, New York Times, and everyone who writes on the internet.

Brian Lehrer: I'll say Cranes is really interesting in this respect. As I cited in the intro, I was looking at Cranes, which is the business publication for New York City, which largely in its editorials reflect the views of the business community and they hate this. That's interesting because you would think a publication like Cranes in its editorial would be against any kind of tax, especially a big one like $15 to drive into the business district that a lot of their subscribers come from. No, they thought this was a good thing for New York business.

State Senator Liz Krueger: Exactly. With all due respect, I think the vast majority of organizations, no matter what the topic, are supporting congestion pricing. You referenced also the impact on people with disabilities who not only are dependent on the MTA moving forward with its accessibility plans for our subways, they won a lawsuit, a major lawsuit on this after years and years and years. Many of them believe that the governor's decision to stop or pause congestion pricing is a violation of the settlement agreement.

We're opening ourselves up to all kinds of legal questions. I fundamentally believe that if you follow the New York State Public Authority Reform law that we passed in 2009, the explicit requirements of fiduciary responsibilities by boards to be independent, and a number of our CLCPA obligations on environmental efforts that were in violation of multiple state laws if we don't go forward with congestion pricing, and that should matter to people also.

Brian Lehrer: I invited people for it, against it, and ambivalent if there's anybody left who's ambivalent about anything in this day and age. And here's our one ambivalent caller, David, a small business owner in the Bronx. David, you're on WNYC. Thank you very much for calling in today.

David: Hey Brian, can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you.

David: Awesome. I fall into the ambivalence camp. I'm a small business owner here in the Bronx, which as you know, doesn't have the greatest public transportation to begin with. I need to drive into the city in order to bring in all the equipment for my job. At the same time, I understand that all the people who who live in the city are those who-- Sorry, I just lifted something so I'm breathing a little heavily. All those people who live in the city need less traffic. It would also be a benefit for me in the long term because I would be dealing with less traffic on the road.

I will flag that I will be transferring some of that cost to my clients. There's the two sidedness to it. There's pro, there's cons, there's benefits to some, cons to other, but I think overall I'm ambivalent, but I tend to lean towards pro.

Brian Lehrer: David, thank you very much. That's the plight of a small business owner. With one hand you're calling a talk show to express your views on a vital civic issue, on the other hand, you're lifting stuff that leaves you out of breath. David, thank you very much. Jay in Brooklyn as we go from the Bronx to Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi Jay.

Jay: Hi Brian. Thanks for taking my call. I just feel like this is a failure of imagination by Governor Hochul. It feels like a betrayal, honestly.

Brian Lehrer: You told the screener something about visiting Montreal?

Jay: Yes, I did. I visited Montreal last year and it was a life-changing experience and just saw how beautiful their transit is. They have an underground city, everything's connected. They have cafes in some stations. Just seems like we could have that and more in New York City. Yet it's a failure of imagination.

Brian Lehrer: Jay, thank you very much. One more on the supporting the governor's side this time. Jason in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi Jason.

Jason: Hi. Thanks so much for taking my call. Wanted to make the point. I used to live in Brooklyn as well and I got a job in Westchester. Now anyone can tell you is a lot of people use the same route to get out of New York City to go to their jobs in Westchester because there's no way out of Brooklyn into Westchester without paying a toll. Unless you go very specifically up the FDR drive, which was exempted from the plan, but that means the FDR drive, it's like a giant traffic jam in the best of times because no one wants to pay a toll to get out of New York City.

Now you can't divert around it without paying a toll. You can't get off it without paying a toll. I feel like the logistics, while everyone wants the MTA to have the money that it needs, once you look closer at this plan, when the surge pricing is going to be, how it's going to be implemented, Governor Hochul isn't wrong. It's wrong to think that it is a tax on people who need to drive to get places.

It's a lot of money that you would have to pay every day to go to a job where you get out of your borough even. I do think the MTA has got to find another way than-

Brian Lehrer: Than this.

Jason: - this tax on folks who got to work.

Brian Lehrer: Jason, thank you very much. I'll let you respond to those callers, Senator Krueger, but one more clip of the governor. She also said last week that even though she supports the mass transit and climate goals of the congestion pricing law, we also have to remember it was originally enacted in the pre-times in 2019. Listen.

Governor Kathy Hochul: It was also enacted in a pre-pandemic period where workers were in the office five days a week, crime was at record lows, and tourism was at record highs. Circumstances have changed and we must respond to the facts on the ground, not from the rhetoric from five years ago.

Brian Lehrer: What about the herding central business and theater districts post-pandemic, Senator, exactly where more people might be discouraged from returning to as the governor sees it?

State Senator Liz Krueger: In fact, the facts on the ground are that there is more congestion in the zone now than pre-pandemic, partly because people aren't getting on the subways and buses because we haven't been making the investments in them to make sure that there is a 21st-century model. We aren't addressing some of the real concerns people have about violence on the subways, although we're trying very hard and I think we're getting somewhere there, but no, it is not true that people are not returning to Manhattan because of the pandemic or that it's changed 2019.

Again, congestion is worse now. There are people every day driving into Manhattan at too large a number, and the win is fixing the MTA and expanding it. She also said in her press conference, "There's congestion in other places too. I want to do something about that." Me too, Brian, but that means even greater investments in the MTA and public transportation going forward, which I want to do.

There are transportation deserts in a number of areas of the other boroughs. We're not going to fix those problems unless we invest more in the MTA to expand public transportation. With all due respect to everybody who doesn't want to pay more, and I get it, if we're going to have a expanding 21st-century public transportation system and air we can breathe, we're going to have to put money in. Guess what?

Whenever we have to put money into something in government, somebody pays for it. Her proposal as an alternative was increasing a business tax. I'm quite sure small businesses and workers didn't want to hear they'd be having to pay and it would just be New York City businesses and workers as opposed to spreading that cost pain over everyone who comes and goes to Manhattan and uses our roads and our transportation system.

My belief is you need to have the most equitable and fair system you can, but unless anybody out there has a suggestion for how we grow money on trees, we've got to have to pick up the cost. By the way, this proposal by the governor is reducing the chances that we get the federal matches we need desperately. Actually, doing away with congestion pricing is going to increase our price tag because we won't have the federal funds.

Brian Lehrer: Last question before we continue on this with New York State Public Radio Capital Bureau Chief Karen DeWitt, with more political analysis and more facts. From your perspective as the State Senate Finance Committee Chair, we're in limbo. What happens next? You all went home. This is the end of the term until January unless you call a special session to fund the MTA in some other way. In the meantime, assuming the governor does not reverse her reversal, what do you do now?

State Senator Krueger: That's another reason everyone is extremely aggravated and angry with the governor. She pulled this out of nowhere two days before the end of session. We just finished a budget a little over a month ago and she never brought this up then. She was still pro-congestion pricing then. Then, we're in the last two days of session, we've got hundreds of bills we're working on, trying to move forward on.

That by the way, a bunch of them didn't happen, I believe because this blew up on us. We were two inches away from passing my New York HEAT Act literally. Then, this happened and no one had time to talk about anything else because we needed to deal with the created crisis of congestion pricing. I don't know what the other answers are right now. We certainly didn't know what any other answers were in the last two days of session, which is why my leader came out at a press conference and said, "We're not going to go for a new tax on the businesses and working people of New York City. We don't understand how this IOU could even work. We're not doing anything for now."

I believe it's incumbent on the governor to come up with an alternative that doesn't just address the money for the MTA capital plan, but also addresses decreasing congestion as we committed to to the federal government after years and years of evaluation and approvals and lawsuits. This was in the works for something like 12 to 15 years. We already put $600 million into the structural equipment to turn on congestion pricing.

That will be completely lost and wasted money. She needs to come up with an answer to these questions.

Brian Lehrer: Here, by the way, I mentioned Crain's, if this surprised people that their editorial board came out against the governor pausing congestion pricing. I'll just read the headline of their editorial. This is how the publication of the business community views this, "Hochul abandoned New York City's future in stunning leadership failure." It was really interesting to me that that came from Crain's of all places.

Senator Liz Kruger, whose own district is inside and outside the-- By the way, did you find a difference between your constituents who live above 60th Street and below 60th Street? Because I'll tell you, we did get some number of phone calls opposing it from people who lived in the congestion pricing zone because they would have to pay the tax if they have a car just to go home. Did you find that your constituents divided by north or south of that line?

State Senator Liz Krueger: No. Although I will say it's the largest response on any issue that I've had in 23 years in office. It was 95% in favor of continuing congestion pricing. Even by people who have raised concerns over the years about it and its impact and exactly where they lived, and how it would affect them, they still were, "What is she talking about? We can't just drop the ball now on all of this. This is ridiculous." 95% of my constituents, whether they lived in the zone or don't live in the zone, chose to let me know that they agreed with my position.

Brian Lehrer: State Senator Liz Kruger, Thank you so much.

State Senator Liz Krueger: Thank you very much, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: More with Karen DeWitt, including a surprise from that stalwart Albany correspondent. If you haven't heard about this yet, coming up after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC with us now for more analysis of the congestion pricing pause and also some other things that the legislature did at the end of its session in the last few days that would otherwise be making bigger news is New York State Public Radio Capital Bureau Chief Karen DeWitt, who we will also say goodbye to now because she is retiring after many years of covering Albany. We'll express our appreciation and also get some long-term big-picture thoughts. Karen, welcome back to the show. Is congratulations the right word?

Karen DeWitt: Yes, I think it is. Thanks, Brian. I know I feel like though I'm leaving now just when things are heating up and getting good again with the disarray, the uncertainty, the animosity that's going on, as we just heard from a leading Senate Democrat, Liz Krueger, not having very nice things to say about the Democratic governor Kathy Hochul. It's like the old days are back after a great pause.

Brian Lehrer: You're drawn to disarray and conflict. It's why you got it to public radio and all?

Karen DeWitt: I think I'm drawn to a narrative. I think sometimes if there's a drama, it brings it home to people more in a news story, they're going to listen more, and hopefully, you can throw in some relevant facts and things that they need to know, too. It just makes it easier because people like a story. It just seems like the last couple of years we've had this real era of politeness that seemed aberration for Albany. I think Governor Hochul had a really long grace period since she unexpectedly became governor and won her election. It just seems like that period might be over now.

Brian Lehrer: How long have you been doing this in Albany?

Karen DeWitt: Since 1990. Was I here before you, Brian?

Brian Lehrer: No. One year after me.

Karen DeWitt: Good. I'm glad somebody was here before me, right?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Karen DeWitt: Since 1990. Mario Cuomo was governor and I actually was a stringer for 1010 WINS before that. I've been covering Albany since the late 1980s and just seen a lot of different governors come and go and as I said, a lot of different narratives, different dramas that-- it's been really fun to be in the middle of all of them, but after a certain point someone else needs to do it. I think that there's a really good crop of younger reporters now at the Capitol, honestly, who are ready to step up to the plate and do the kind of things that-

Brian Lehrer: That's great. Certainly.

Karen DeWitt: -I and my peers have been doing.

Brian Lehrer: Certainly we have a very good young Albany reporter on our team, John Campbell, and he's been doing great work. You've done so much really, really good reporting over the years. I'm curious since you mentioned having done reporting for WINS before you came into the public radio world. I'm curious if you've seen much of an upstate versus downstate dynamic in the political ecosystem of New York State over the years.

I used to think upstate thought it was bailing out troubled New York City all the time with a lot of crime and poverty and everything that the city has seen as having but in more recent years, the city has thrived economically and been the economic engine for subsidizing needed services upstate where the economy is hollowed out much more. I don't know. Is that an accurate telling?

Karen DeWitt: No. I think you are right because you reminded me that in the early years, in the 1990s when I had this job, sometimes an upstate station would suggest that I do a story about upstate seceding from New York City.

Brian Lehrer: Exactly.

Karen DeWitt: I don't really get that anymore. That's a good observation. When New York City was in trouble, people were more resentful. Now that it is more of an economic engine, it's not the same. It's been a delicate balance because I have stations from eastern hip of Long Island, north Country, Buffalo, Rochester, and trying to find stories that can be of interest to everyone. When the New York City news does dominate a lot of what goes on at the capitol, the downstate lawmakers, they're just generally more vocal. It has been a tricky balance and now in the last week with the congestion pricing story.

I've been going with that because I think people are interested because it's a national and international story with cities around the world experimenting with congestion pricing and this being really such a shocking reversal that I figure it's definitely of interest to everybody in New York State, that's for sure.

Brian Lehrer: It is amazing to think of the political diversity in New York as a state when we have everyone from, let's say, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez elected downstate to Elise Stefanik elected upstate. That is quite a range. In this era where-

Karen DeWitt: Yes. Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: -everybody likes to accuse journalists of bias from one direction or another all the time, how did you approach staying credible to everybody in all the different districts of New York State?

Karen DeWitt: That's a good question. I feel like until recently it was pretty easy because I just tried to always be fair and develop that reputation. I would get positive feedback on that. People would say, "Yes, we know you as the fair reporter," so it would reinforce that I would try to be as fair as possible but I think the difference now is people have their own sets of facts, realities, beliefs, and even trusted news sources like us, like NPR, just not as readily believed anymore, even if you're telling the facts and the truth. That's really been a dilemma.

Recently, for the last 20 years, I did live way out in the countryside like the famous NPR reporter, Brian Mann lives out in the country way up [crosstalk] northern New York. A lot of people there, my neighbors there just became very radicalized, very MAGA Republican, or even further out there to the right conspiracy theories. Just been hearing so much of that lately. I feel like honestly, they're not going to believe the things I have to say, and that's a little discouraging. We really seem to be at a crossroads with truth these days. It's concerning.

Brian Lehrer: It's nice to see since you mentioned him, Brian Mann rise through the ranks of public radio. Listeners, that's a name you may have noticed hearing on NPR, but I knew him from-- I would go to the Adirondacks many, many, many years and spend part of my summers there and I would listen to North Country Public Radio and I became a member, not just of my downstate public radio station, but my upstate public radio station. I got to know some of the reporting around the Adirondacks of Brian Mann. Eventually, he went to the network. Now they're sending him all over the world. Just to say, local Adirondacks boy makes good.

Karen DeWitt: Exactly. It's quite a rise. He did it through hard work. Actually, unlike me, I know one of his secrets, I hope he doesn't mind revealing it, he gets up very early in the morning and does a lot of important work at 5:00 in the morning, which is why I'm not doing the international beat, I guess, Brian. [laughs] I can't get up that early, but yes.

Brian Lehrer: That's right.

Karen DeWitt: He definitely has work for every inch of that.

Brian Lehrer: Is there anything you would say, I'm going to put you on the spot because it's a big question, but are among the biggest things that have changed during your time covering state politics or state policy and among the biggest things that haven't changed that you thought would?

Karen DeWitt: I can say the first one's easier to answer. I think that there's just a lot more women. Women are treated a lot better. I was one of just a couple of female reporters for a long time in my career. I wasn't the first. There was a generation of women maybe 10 years older than me who were groundbreaking, so I was lucky enough to have that. There were not very many women there. It was definitely a man's world. Now it's quite a bit different. There was always the joke, the three men in a room the governor and the two legislative leaders who figured out the budget, all the end-of-session issues. Now it's two women and one man in a room. That has really changed in a big way that I really, I'm just glad.

I guess I expected it to happen earlier. I would say, it's not something I didn't expect. What hasn't changed, I don't know. Maybe this is just human nature where you're putting me on the spot. I think just people a lot of times ultimately act in their self-interest, and you do see a lot of that in politics, and I think that probably hasn't changed. When you're trying to figure out a motivation for something mysterious that's going on, a lot of times it ends up being what's easiest for them, what's in it for them. I don't know. I guess that's human nature.

Brian Lehrer: Where on that scale would you put Governor Hochul's reversal at the 11th hour on congestion pricing?

Karen DeWitt: I think it's all about the 2024 elections, and the congressional races in the suburban swing districts. The Democrats handled it badly in 2022. Republicans flipped four seats in blue New York, which was pretty stunning, and I think they're panicking about it. That's my theory and from what sources have said, but it was just handled in a horribly clumsy manner. For instance, the governor could have gotten the top Democrats in the legislature on board, like Liz Krueger for instance. She's one of the most powerful and influential Democrats in the legislature.

Why not put them together and say, "Look, do you want to have Republicans in control in the House of Representatives and the presidency in 2024 or would you rather have Democrats? I'm going to put this on pause and let's just be quiet about it for six months," but it seems like she just sprung it on people and did not, I don't know, I hate to say it because I've lived upstate most of my life, too. I just feel like she didn't read New York City correctly. She just didn't seem to quite get all the dynamics by doing it this way.

Brian Lehrer: Now, Senator Krueger said in our segment just before that she thinks it won't help the Democratic congressional candidates in the suburbs. It'll give the Republicans a talking point, the incumbent Republicans, Mike Lawler, D'Esposito some of the others, because they're going to say, "See, we were right. The Democrats' impulses were wrong. We forced them to back down on something that's bad for you."

Karen DeWitt: I know. I totally agree with that.

Brian Lehrer: You don't know which way to go.

Karen DeWitt: I don't think it helps at this point. Maybe if you did it six months ago, maybe around the holidays, that's always a good time to spring some major changes. Maybe the holiday 2023 and by now it wouldn't be an issue.

Brian Lehrer: Or some Friday night at nine o'clock when nobody's paying attention to the news.

Karen DeWitt: One thing I'll say in fairness to Governor Hochul, she did get thrown into this job. Certainly, she's been there a while, but there's a lot of really good things about her that are different. Like her predecessor, who was the three-dimensional chess player, Andrew Cuomo would always game out everything that they did, and you don't see it as much in this administration.

Brian Lehrer: Meaning she's more genuine in what she does with respect to what she thinks is good and bad for the public?

Karen DeWitt: Yes, I think that's one way of looking at it, but also I think in politics you've got to kind of figure, if I do this, how will this play out? How will that play out? And try your best of your ability to imagine, because I don't think Governor Hochul imagined this week she seems to be having since she made that announcement.

Brian Lehrer: There's certainly a lot of brickbats coming her way. I don't know. Maybe, certainly praise from other quarters as well. That big coalition of people we were talking about earlier in the show, like when has the Teacher's Union and the conservative Republican Borough president of Staten Island ever teamed up in a lawsuit [laughs] to stop something? The coalition was pretty broad. I guess if there's an argument that the Democrats can make back to the Republicans who are going to say, "See, we were right, they were wrong."

I guess it's that we are responsive to our constituents. We think this is good for the future of New York, but you didn't want it, and we are being responsive to you. Those MAGA Republicans are still way out there. We're going to continue to be responsive to you on some of these issues where people could go the other way, and they're still MAGA Republicans. I don't know if that'll work, but maybe that's what they're going to back with.

Karen DeWitt: Brian, I think they need to hire you.

Brian Lehrer: No-

Karen DeWitt: I think they need to hire you.

Brian Lehrer: -I don't do political consulting for anybody.

Karen DeWitt: I'm just kidding, but that is like a way that it could be framed. It just seems like everybody's really nervous and scared about November 2024. I think you mentioned that a little earlier, we saw a lot of important bills about the environment, anti-climate change bills that kind of failed at the end and I think part of that was just a fear of doing anything that could provoke anybody negatively right now.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Just give me one thought on the two bills that were also, as you reported, championed by the governor that did pass at the last minute. These would be getting so much more attention right now if it wasn't for this congestion pricing debacle, and that is the two bills to regulate children's social media.

Karen DeWitt: I know, and in fact, in preparation for this show this morning, I have to admit I totally forgot about those two bills. Isn't that crazy? They got no attention. One of them will ban the addictive algorithms in children's social media feeds. The other is the big companies Meta and Google won't be allowed to just collect children's personal data. As we know, it's really a big problem with children with anxiety, depression, social media just not affecting their undeveloped brains in a really great way.

The other odd thing about that last week was even before the governor announced her reverse law on congestion pricing, sources were saying that there was a deal on these social media regulations, and they didn't have like a press conference or anybody out there taking credit for it, which seems sort of strange. They missed an opportunity to get more attention.

My guess is that the governor's really going to highlight that in a day or two to change the subject from this congestion pricing. If these hold up, they might be subject of lawsuits. I am not completely clear on the exact details of how they're going to carry this all out. It's not going to take effect for at least six months to a year. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out, and if it is the beginning of a trend of government cracking down on the wild west free for all that social media feeds have become. Particularly, I think they're harmful for adults. I know they're harmful for me and particularly harmful for children.

Brian Lehrer: At least adults can make some version of informed consent, even if we don't realize how the algorithms are tracking us. With the children underage, what does that apply to?

Karen DeWitt: 18.

Brian Lehrer: How will Google and Meta and anybody else know if the user is under 18?

Karen DeWitt: That's in the weeds of the bill and honestly, because of this other stuff, if this were a normal week, I probably would've read that more carefully, but like I said, we all got thrown by all the-

Brian Lehrer: Congestion pricing.

Karen DeWitt: -other stuff that's overshadowed the end of session, the congestion pricing that can't be just, are you over you know, 18? Yes. It has to be more verification than that. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Is this your last official thing as Albany Bureau chief for New York State Public Radio?

Karen DeWitt: Pretty much. I'm around for a couple of weeks, fingers crossed, nothing blows up. Like I said, I think there's younger reporters who are good at this and I wanted to quit while I was ahead. I'll just tell you very quickly what has guided me for a long time. November 1994, I was at Mario Cuomo's headquarters. He was seeking his fourth term for reelection. He went down in flames and all staff, everybody was devastated. I have to say, I just thought, that's never going to be me. I'm going to leave before I'm forced out or more than ready to go. I'd like to think that I've stuck by that, going out maybe on a high note.

Brian Lehrer: Not going down in flames, rather in a blaze of glory, Karen DeWitt.

Karen DeWitt: Let's hope. I still have two weeks, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: You still can blow it.

Karen DeWitt: Let's hope.

Brian Lehrer: The 34-year Albany Bureau chief for New York State Public Radio reporting on the state capitol for public radio stations around the state. Thanks for all your work and thanks for joining us one more time now.

Karen DeWitt: Thank you. It's been an absolute privilege to be on your show all these years. Absolute privilege.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Karen. Brian Lehrer, WNYC, much more to come.

 

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