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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Happy Monday, everybody. Well, you may have noticed that Mayor Eric Adams did not drop out of his reelection bid over the weekend. He took several opportunities, in fact, since Friday show to deny reports that he is taking a job in the Trump administration in exchange for dropping out to consolidate voters, not for Zohran Mamdani behind fewer candidates, mostly Andrew Cuomo. This is not over, let me say as a spoiler alert before we talk about it, but here's one way Adams went after both Cuomo and Mamdani in one breath.

Mayor Eric Adams: I have two spoiled brats running for mayor. They were born with silver spoons in their mouths, not like working-class New Yorkers. I'm a working-class New Yorker. They are not like us.

Brian Lehrer: This, like I say, is not over. Adams did not deny when he spoke to the press that he had conversations with peoples in Trump's orbit about dropping out, and he released a statement that included the words, "I will always listen if called to serve my country." The next words, though, were, "No formal offers have been made." Does President Trump really want Mamdani to lose the election? Maybe he'd rather have him as a foil in next year's midterm congressional elections, which are presumably of much greater importance to Trump than who runs New York.

That also might be why the House and Senate Democratic leaders, both from Brooklyn, Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer, have not endorsed Mamdani, at least so far. They could be worried about the same thing, right, from the other side. One key question, how much will Mamdani build trust among voters, not in his base, that he is maturing away from more radical things he has said in the past, like about the NYPD being a major threat to public safety or being interested in government seizing the means of production.

Those were four years ago, but are not in his platform. He talks now about working with the police, improving recruitment efforts for them and working with New York's business sector, though business leaders tend to be among the most vociferous about wanting him defeated. He's running less as a tear-it-down radical and more of what you might call a Bernie Sanders-style Democratic socialist or social Democrat. You know, Mamdani and Sanders held a rally together Saturday night at Brooklyn College. Here's Bernie Sanders.

Bernie Sanders: You have the President of the United States working to make it harder for him to get elected.

Brian Lehrer: That from Saturday night, Mamdani and Senator Bernie Sanders rally. The Eric Adams dropping out and maybe Curtis Sliwa dropping out story persists. With us now, perhaps the leading journalist on that story, reporting on Adams contacts with the Trump administration, Dana Rubinstein, New York Times reporter who covers New York City politics and government. We're also joined by our own Brigid Bergin, WNYC senior political correspondent. Hi, Brigid and Dana, welcome back to WNYC.

Brigid Bergin: Hi, Brian.

Dana Rubinstein: Good morning.

Brian Lehrer: Dana, let me roll back the clock to last Thursday when you broke the story headlined "Adams Considers Dropping Out of Race After Secret Meeting in Florida." Not secret anymore. Thanks to you, Dana. Remind us of what you learned with that meeting was.

Dana Rubinstein: Well, you know, originally the mayor said that he'd gone down there for personal reasons to celebrate his birthday, 65th birthday, and then he sort of allowed that he had met with political figures. Ultimately, what we learned is that he had met with Steve Winick, who's a real estate investor and had served as an envoy to the Middle East for the president.

Brian Lehrer: Steve Witkoff?

Dana Rubinstein: Sorry, Witkoff. Did I say Winnick?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Dana Rubinstein: Sorry. Sorry, sorry. Different real estate person. Anyway, and that they had discussed potential jobs for Eric Adams.

Brian Lehrer: By Friday, you had this story, "Adams Insists He's Running for Mayor Despite Saudi Ambassadorship Talks." You wrote, "The hopes of sealing the exchange had faded by late Friday, at least temporarily, amid competing political pressures and public pushback over reports of a potential deal between Mr. Trump and the mayor." Where does it all stand now, as far as you could tell?

Dana Rubinstein: That remains an open question. I mean, things seem to temporarily stall out a bit on Friday as the contours of the discussions became public, but it doesn't seem like those discussions are over yet. I think we'll just have to keep watching over the next couple of weeks to see how it all pans out.

Brian Lehrer: Brigid, do you want to fill in any details from your perspective so far?

Brigid Bergin: Well, I think part of what is really interesting about the whole arc of that narrative last week was there was this argument that was out there that this race needs to be a two person race and that, ultimately, if it becomes a two person race between Andrew Cuomo and Zohran Mamdani, that that somehow ensures a victory or strengthens the hand of Andrew Cuomo in this mayoral general election field, which right now is extremely crowded. You have Republican Curtis Sliwa. You have Eric Adams running as an independent. You had up until last week Jim Walden running as an independent. There's another candidate on the ballot, Joe Hernandez, running as an independent. You have all of these candidates who are, in theory, pulling away from voters who are not Mamdani supporters.

We haven't seen a good poll since earlier in the summer. There have been some political consulting firms that have put out polls, but the last real citywide poll we haven't seen because a lot of them are done by colleges, and the colleges have been out, so the Marist poll, the Quinnipiac poll, the Siena College poll. I think we're waiting to see an updated poll to see really what is the state of the race, because what we know at this point is that Mamdani won that Democratic primary by a double digit, nearly 13 points, that he has built support throughout the summer, that you have Cuomo, who has tried to reposition himself in this race and is definitely trying to appeal to voters who are concerned that Mamdani is too far to the left.

What's unclear is, are there enough of those voters to actually help him defeat Mamdani, and if someone like the mayor, Eric Adams, were to get out of this race, where would those votes go? Curtis Sliwa, I think, has been very clear that he is not interested in getting out of this race. His campaign has said they have had no contact with the White House. He has not been offered anything or even in talks similar to what we've heard, facing Adams, the kind of potential job prospects, whether or not they've actually manifested or not.

The idea that if Adams were to get out, that those votes would just automatically shift to Cuomo is something that I've heard people on the left and right dispute. Certainly, some of those votes may go to him, but there is a chance that some of those votes would actually go to Sliwa because Adams currently has stronger favorability among Republican voters than he does among some Democratic voters.

Brian Lehrer: Yet, he is a Democrat. I wonder if some of those votes would also go to Mamdani actually, rather than-

Brigid Bergin: Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: -Cuomo, who some people may not like for all kinds of reasons, or Sliwa, who they might not like for all kinds of reasons. Listeners, I wonder if we have any Eric Adams supporters listening right now. I know, according to the polls, there are precious few at this point, but a small number of voters could make the difference in a close race, right, if he does drop out. If you're an Eric Adams supporter right now, if he does drop out of the race, who would you vote for? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. If you are an Eric Adams supporter as of now, if he does drop out of the race, who would you vote for if everybody else stays in? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text.

Dana, which side is more hesitant, if you can do an analysis of that, if you can tell, meaning the Trump side or the Eric Adams side, to make some deal for him to take a job and drop out? I feel like this is an underreported aspect of it and I have my suspicions, but you're actually reporting the story.

Dana Rubinstein: Right. I think there's reasons for hesitancy on both sides. In the case of Trump and his orbit, there is an upside for them to have a Mamdani as mayor, or so they believe, because they will thereby be able to paint the entire Democratic Party as allied with a Democratic socialist candidate and thereby, they believe, gain some advantage in the midterms and also, potentially, in the next gubernatorial race where the president seems poised to back Elise Stefanik, the congresswoman from upstate.

Then on the Adams side, I think that it's hard for the mayor to hear that people want him out of the race. It's a pretty dire thing to be a one-term Democratic mayor of New York City, which is, as you know, a heavily Democratic city. I think there has to be some sort of just internal emotional battle for the mayor over what precisely to do. He also, I think, has to realize that his numbers are really, really very bad for an incumbent, and the window for him to win reelection seems vanishingly small. He has, during this limited period of time, some leverage and some options available to him that he might not have in a few weeks or even a month.

Brian Lehrer: You mean leverage with the Trump administration?

Dana Rubinstein: Leverage just generally, with the Trump administration, with real estate players who want to see him out of the race. He is going to want to have another job, right, and a well-paying one, too? He has some value right now.

Brian Lehrer: Right. I guess from a negotiation standpoint, what you say implies the question is Adams going to get a better job, assuming he's not headed for reelection, is he going to get a better job by taking an offer from- either the private sector. I think that's another underreported aspect of the story, though it's been mentioned there may be some private sector offers for him also to drop out since so many business leaders want to defeat Mamdani. Is it better for him to take something now, either from the Trump administration or the private sector, or wait until he presumably loses? That must be going through his head. Is that part of what you're thinking?

Dana Rubinstein: I would assume so. I mean, if once he loses, his appeal to potential employers, I would have to imagine, would diminish somewhat.

Brian Lehrer: From the Trump perspective, and it was very telling to me, that quote from Adams that I cited from his statement on Friday that no offer has been made, and you reported that, too, Dana.

Dana Rubinstein: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe from the Trump administration standpoint, there's a desire to maybe listen to business leaders in New York who Trump likes to be responsive to and help get Mamdani out of the race or help get Mamdani to lose. On the other hand, they must be saying to themselves, "What the heck are we doing? We want this guy to beat up on next year for the congressional midterms."

Dana Rubinstein: Right. Also, I mean, not for nothing, Trump is himself a business leader in New York, right? He still retains a bunch of real estate here and has business interests here, so yes.

Brian Lehrer: How would Mamdani policies, if enacted, the things he's running on, ding Trump's businesses directly, if you have anything on that?

Dana Rubinstein: I don't know that they would directly. He's calling for higher corporate tax rates and higher personal income tax rates that would require state legislative and gubernatorial approval, that may or may not happen. Real estate and business leaders have also expressed a lot of anxiety about public safety issues. Mamdani's prior statements, which he has since disavowed, about defunding the police and his affiliation with the national DSA. For a lot of these folks who love the capitalist aspect of New York City, there's something dissonant and alarming about the prospect of electing a Democratic socialist mayor, but whether there would be actual consequences, I think, are impossible to say at this point.

Brian Lehrer: Here's David in the Bronx, an Adams supporter. Hey, David. Thanks for calling in. Hi.

David: Hey, Brian. Great to talk to you. Thanks for having me. What I'd like to say is I don't even think we should be discussing Mayor Adams stepping out of the race. Mayor Adams has delivered pretty much on keeping crime down. He's kept the immigration situation from getting out of control in New York, and he hasn't been convicted of anything. I don't see personally why we should be talking about him stepping down. I just think New Yorkers are being led by the nose by the media and being told what they should do instead of using their eyes and their senses to say, "Hey, he's delivered, he hasn't been convicted of anything, so why should we not consider revoting for Mayor Adams?"

Brian Lehrer: Well, we're only talking about this because Adams himself has been talking about it with the Trump administration. David, if Adams were to drop out, who do you think you would vote for?

David: Well, Mamdani hasn't been proven. I'm not sure what he's going to bring to the table. We do know what we've seen with Cuomo. I just think I'd sit on the sidelines.

Brian Lehrer: Wouldn't even vote. Thank you, David. Brigid, we didn't even consider that alternative.

Brigid Bergin: Yes, part of what we are going to have here in this general election, since we're not in the primary anymore, we don't have people who are prevented from participating. We have more than a million unaffiliated voters who will definitely play a significant role in this election, a significant role in whether they choose to come out or not. This is something that I think will be on the minds of a lot of voters, Democrats who don't feel that any of the candidates are a suitable option for them, Republicans who would have liked to see someone other than Curtis Sliwa as their party's nominee. Those people definitely are people who may stay home.

I think one of the things that we are seeing--

You played a clip from that Bernie Sanders rally on Saturday night, and Sanders spoke to this in that rally. One of the things that has made Mamdani's campaign both distinct and successful is his ability to energize and activate large numbers of voters, particularly new voters and young voters. Any of the other candidates who are running against him, that is one of the biggest obstacles they face, because the polling in the primary, which showed Andrew Cuomo ahead, leading right up until days before the race, that was polling that did not account for the change in the electorate.

Again, we don't know how much this electorate may change ahead of the general election. We may see some polls. It may give us a better sense of the race, but we have to have that qualifier in the back of our minds. We don't know people who have been alienated from the race, and we don't know what kind of people may be engaged who are not reflected in that polling.

Brian Lehrer: There are lots of polls. I was looking at one article with more than a dozen of them. Generally, Mamdani gets in the 30s or 40s, Cuomo gets in the 20s or 30s, Sliwa gets in the teens, and Adams runs last with about 10%. Adams' low poll numbers mean all this drama might be about making very little difference because it's not that many voters, but in a close race, of course, a small number of voters could make the difference.

Here's one texter that says Adams already earned my vote, but if he drops out, Mamdani will get my vote. Here's another text that says Bernie Sanders is the most popular Democrat nationwide. Why would his protege have a bad effect on nationwide campaigns? Meanwhile, Jeffries and Schumer are the least popular.

Brigid, let me throw that one to you because, obviously, Jeffries and Schumer, and Hochul for her own reelection, and maybe Carl Heastie, the head of the assembly where Mamdani currently serves, and we'll get to your article on that, Dana, but have a different opinion than that listener. Brigid, what do you make of Jeffries and Schumer, in particular, and Hochul, too, not endorsing the winner of the Democratic primary?

Brigid Bergin: You know, Brian, I have to wonder if some of that is the way a kind of DC bubble views New York City and New York State politics, and to the extent that we talk about Governor Hochul, who's up in Albany and is in part of the state where, when you look at an electoral map and you see how the votes break down, you see these huge swaths of red. Now, if you look at the population in some of those areas where there are those huge swaths of red, it is much smaller than in the parts of the state where you see the very dark blue dots, places like New York City, Buffalo, Rochester, Binghamton, and Ithaca.

I think that is something that she's someone who is very mindful of. She is running for reelection next year, and I think wants to be able to strike just the right balance of being someone who is pushing back against incursions by the Trump administration, and yet doesn't want to create unnecessary headaches for herself with the Trump administration or with potential moderate voters.

With Schumer and Jeffries, I think we still are seeing them trying to figure out how to work as an opposition party against the current Republican Party. They have really very little leverage in Washington to speak of, and I think that there is this idea, the only way for them to gain an advantage is to pick up seats in the midterm now. Brian, we've had whole other conversations, there's this whole sidebar of redistricting going on, throwing everything into chaos as well, and so I think they are grappling with the risks and the opportunities of getting behind someone who is so much further to their left.

Brian Lehrer: Dana, anything on the listener's point about Bernie Sanders popularity? There's been a conversation in Democratic circles, I guess, for a decade now that says, "Well, what if Bernie Sanders did win the nomination rather than Hillary Clinton in 2016 with his strong base of support, even though a lot of people, have to figure out who might be swing voters, whether they see him as too far to the left." Maybe all of these leaders, through the lens of, what Brigid just called, the Washington DC bubble view of New York, also have a Washington DC bubble view of Bernie Sanders popularity, and therefore how much damage or maybe even help Mamdani would give to Democratic turnout in the midterms.

Dana Rubinstein: Yes, it's definitely an interesting point, I should say. I'm not a national political expert, but I think it's important to remember that the control of the House is not determined by a nationwide poll. It happens on a district by district basis, and there are many districts, including in New York, outside of New York City, where voters are much more moderate. You look at how Mamdani's polling upstate and in Long island, these numbers are not good, right? In Long Island, there are candidates in the Democratic Party who are being lumped in with Mamdani in attack ads in a way that is likely to prove problematic for them. I think it's important to remember that there's a distinction between a poll and the district-by-district fights that people are going to have to have.

Brian Lehrer: Another question. A listener writes, "Don't all these backroom dealings with Trump help Mamdani?" The optics are that Cuomo is in the Trump camp. Listeners, let me throw out another question here. Some of you know if you subscribe to our Brian Lehrer Show newsletter that two weeks ago we invited readers to say if you would feel good, to use Cuomo's words, he said he would feel good about taking help from Trump to win the election, like by getting Sliwa to lose, which is what Cuomo said Trump would do. He would convince Republicans that it's a waste of vote to vote for Curtis Sliwa, and he might help to get Adams to drop out. Well, we got 150 responses to that question. 148 of them said, "No, we wouldn't feel good." [chuckles]

I came to think we framed that question incorrectly because, obviously, if you're a Mamdani supporter, you're not going to feel good about Trump helping to defeat him. What if we framed it differently, which we'll do right now, and just ask, if you don't support Mamdani, would you feel good about Trump helping to defeat him? Maybe that's a better way to put it. 212-433-WNYC. There are lots of New Yorkers who may not want Mamdani, but are also very anti-Trump, so we'll ask that.

Now, if you don't support Mamdani, would you feel good, Cuomo's words, feel good, about Trump helping to defeat him, or would it turn you off to Cuomo as well because Cuomo is taking help from somebody who, let's face it, probably a lot of Cuomo voters, also politically despise Donald Trump? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Anything else you want to say or ask about any of this with Dana Rubinstein from the New York Times and our Brigid Bergin. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Brigid, anything on that question? Have you been reporting at all on blowback to that Cuomo tape that Politico unearthed that we aired on the show, where he told this group of supporters at a Hamptons fundraiser that he would feel good about Trump helping him to consolidate support?

Brigid Bergin: It's something that I think Cuomo has tried to since, of course, correct on, the language that you played or I think referenced, Brian, earlier in terms of what Adams said on Friday. His opening line outside of Gracie Mansion was that Andrew Cuomo is a snake and a liar, suggesting that somehow what we are hearing about potential job offers from the Trump administration are, also, somehow connected to Andrew Cuomo trying to push Eric Adams out of the race, something that, Cuomo said on Saturday, was, using one of his favorite expressions, baloney.

I think that it's something that Adams is trying to make a point of, but it's something that certainly Cuomo will never, I think, acknowledge openly. That's why the Politico story was so interesting because this was a back room event far off in the east end of Long Island that we had access, we got this inside view of. I think both of these candidates are people who have been in politics for a very long time. The fact of the matter is a lot of New York City politics, in fact, does take place in back rooms. [chuckles]

I reported a story over the weekend that was a follow-up to a piece that we did over the summer about some of those ballot petitions that Eric Adams had gathered to get his independent ballot lines to run in the general election. There were a lot of questions raised. Three people who signed them were no longer with us. They were deceased. The campaign said that they would hire an independent attorney to do an audit of those petitions. The attorney that they hired to do this audit is someone by the name of Stanley Schlein, who anyone who follows New York City politics or has, for any period of time, will say, "Huh, that name is familiar," and it should be because he is an incredibly powerful lawyer from the Bronx who himself was once sued for the forgeries and petition errors that he's now being asked to review for the Adams campaign.

I was speaking with Michael Blake, the former mayoral candidate, who talked about how when he was trying to run for State assembly in 2016 and had hired a lawyer that wasn't Stanley Schlein, who does a lot of work for the Bronx Democrats, that he and his lawyer were prevented from entering the back room of the Bronx Democratic headquarters to review his petitions because he had not hired Schlein. That was filed in a federal court affidavit.

This is all to say, Brian, that if people and voters and listeners feel like some of what happens in New York City politics takes place in back rooms, they are not wrong because it, in fact, does. That's why it is our job as reporters to tell those stories because otherwise they would not know. Then they can take that information, make of it what they will, and use it when they go to the ballot box in November to make their decision about who they want to vote for.

Brian Lehrer: One listener writes, "It's interesting that Cuomo campaigned in the primaries by saying that he was the only one who could go toe to toe with Trump, but now this." Another one writes, "Trump inserting himself in the election to help Cuomo has made me move towards Mamdani. This is true for myself and my friend group who are older New Yorkers." It's a very small sample, but it indicates that there may be, and assuming these people are legitimately posting and not just Mamdani supporters who want to spin it, but maybe an indication that at least some people who are undecided, who are fairly positive about Cuomo and his record and his potential if he is the mayor, are turned off by playing footsie with Trump in this way.

Dana, your story, Why Zohran Mamdani's Boss in the Legislature Refuses to Endorse Him, that's about Carl Heastie, the Speaker of the Assembly, assembly member from the Bronx, who has also not yet endorsed his fellow lawmaker, of course, Mamdani, a member of the assembly. That's getting much less attention, except for your article, than Hochul and Jeffries and Schumer not endorsing. What's up with Carl Heastie?

Dana Rubinstein: Well, that's an interesting question. I should note that it was actually my colleague Ben Oreskes who wrote [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry, sorry. I've seen that line right now.

Dana Rubinstein: I contribute. I have a tagline on it. It was a very good story and it raises an interesting issue, which is that the assembly speaker is someone whose main constituency it's his members, right? He has to, if he wants to retain his position of power, heed his members' desires. His members come from all over New York State, and many of them are, as we formally noted, many upstate people, including Democrats, are uncomfortable with Democratic socialism and with Mamdani. He doesn't want to get ahead of his members is the basic idea.

I think he's also heard, in particular, from some of his Jewish members who have concerns about Mamdani's stances on Israel. It is commonplace for speakers of the assembly to be relatively conservative in that way to not get out front, and I think that's what Heastie is doing.

Brigid Bergin: What's interesting, we did see last week a gathering of Bronx Democrats. We did come out and endorse Mamdani, which, I think, it will be a moment that that's something that happened after the story ran, but it's something to be watching, and it builds on that question of where are the leaders versus where are broader members of their party? There are centrist Democrats who have people you might not have thought would be backing Mamdani who are getting behind him.

The head of the Brooklyn Democrats was at that Bernie Sanders event on Saturday night, Assemblymember Rodneyse Bichotte Hermelyn, and similarly some of the Bronx Democrats who came out to do that endorsement last week were not necessarily people who were out front during the primary, but are people who I think are taking the pulse of their constituents and realizing, "Okay, we're going to get involved now because that's what we're hearing from our community."

Dana Rubinstein: Sure. Also, just from a real politics standpoint, in the end, it is generally in a politician's best interest to ally himself with the person they presume will be in power. As the election draws nearer, I think you will see a lot of these people get off the sidelines as they realize that it is in their own self interest to develop a working and positive relationship with the person likely to be the next mayor of New York City if indeed the election goes in that direction.

Brian Lehrer: Carol, in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Carol.

Carol: Hi. I said no to-- I would not vote for-- I would not be happy if Cuomo got endorsement from or help from Trump. I voted for Cuomo in the primary. I don't want to vote for him now. I'm not a Mamdani supporter. I am one of those Jewish people who are concerned not so much that he's an antisemitic, but that he doesn't respect the state of Israel, but I might have to vote for him.

Brian Lehrer: Because you more object to Cuomo being aligned with Trump?

Carol: Because I've decided that Cuomo is just sleazy.

Brian Lehrer: Carol, thank you very much. I think Arlene, with some similar concerns in Manhattan, comes down differently. Arlene, you're on WNYC. Hi, thank you for calling in.

Arlene: Yes, good morning. I'm not a Trump supporter, but if he helps kick Mamdani out of the race, I'm okay with that. I just would never vote for Mr. Mamdani. I've listened to him speak. He can't answer one question with a straight face. He doesn't give facts. He doesn't give evidence. He doesn't give backup information.

I do feel that no reporter has ever questioned Mr. Mamdani on his prior positions of supporting BDS. He co-founded, while in college, SJP, which is Students for Justice in Palestine, which is basically antisemitic, anti-Israel, and anti-Jewish. He's never been truly brought on the carpet for that, so I just-- You can replace the word Jewish with the word Black, Hispanic, Indian. If he was against any group, I could not vote for that person. That's the answer to that question.

Brian Lehrer: Arlene, thank you very much. Now, certainly Mamdani would say, and a lot of people would say, that being against Israel as a Jewish state rather for a pluralistic democracy there, which is what Mamdani says he's for, is not antisemitic. Of course, that's a whole question. We're going to do a whole segment on that question coming up in a few weeks. Is anti-Zionism, antisemitism? Always, sometimes, never. We'll talk about that.

There you go, Brigid, a smattering of people who come down differently on this idea of Trump helping Cuomo and how it might affect their vote even if they voted for Cuomo in the primary or just anti-Mamdani.

Brigid Bergin: Yes, absolutely. I think, it's always interesting, Brian, when you ask the follow-up question about why, what prompted them to make that decision. I think your first caller's answer, I want even more to know. Like she feels like Cuomo is sleazy, but she supported him in the primary. What is it that has changed for her from the primary to the general election? Is it any sense of an affiliation with Trump or his administration or his time in politics? It is fascinating to understand how voters get to their decision.

Going back to the conversation we've been having about where are some of these Democratic leaders in making their decision about endorsements, I don't think we're hearing any of these voters say, "Well, I'm waiting for Senator Schumer to tell me who he's endorsing," or, "I'm waiting for leader Jeffries--" I think Schumer and Jeffries are doing the same thing that we're listening to those voters too. They're making the calculation, and as we get closer to the election, to Dana's point, we will probably see something when we get a better sense of, is Mamdani really running away with this? Is it actually going to be a closer race than it was in the primary? And at this point, I think we don't really know that. We know what we have seen from the polls so far, but there is time for things to change dramatically.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute and talk about the Curtis Sliwa factor in all of this with Dana Rubinstein from the Times and our Brigid Bergin. Stay with us.

[MUSIC]

Zohran Mamdani: We have to beat Andrew Cuomo one more time.

Andrew Cuomo: I stopped listening to Adams a long time ago, and so did New York City.

Brian Lehrer: "I stopped listening to Adams a long time ago and so did New York City," since he was a little off mic there, Cuomo and we heard Mamdani before him. Here's an interesting one that just came in in a text, listener writes, "There are plenty of us who detest Mamdani, believe he's antisemitic, unqualified, and somewhat delusional, but we're going to vote for him anyway because Adams and Cuomo are straight up corrupt."

Dana Rubinstein: [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: Dana, there's a poll question, huh?

Dana Rubinstein: Yes, that's an interesting question for sure.

Brian Lehrer: Listener writes, "I wonder if you guys think that Curtis Sliwa is being underestimated in this race. I wouldn't vote for him, but he's been sounding like a rational voice lately." Why-- Dana, if you reported on Adams being offered or not being offered, but in discussion with the Trump administration about possibly being offered a job to drop out, some of the reporting, I'm not sure if yours, says they were also talking with Sliwa so that they really consolidate it as a one on one Cuomo versus Mamdani.

Dana Rubinstein: Yes, that's true. It's also, from the mayor's perspective, must be pretty hurtful, the idea that the person who would have the biggest impact at this point on the race by getting out of it would be Sliwa. He is polling far ahead of Adams, as far as we know, in the polls. To truly clear the field for Cuomo, the idea is that you would need to get both of them out. Sliwa has thus far been very forthright about his resistance to getting out of the race. He was on a radio show the other day and said that the only way he would get out of the race is if he were shot, which I think was a not-so-implicit allusion to the fact that he actually was shot in a taxicab in 1992 in a failed Gambino kidnapping scheme. Anyway, so he's been very, very straightforward about the fact that he doesn't want to get out.

On the other hand, he works for a guy named John Catsimatidis who talks to the president. To the extent that his professional life and paycheck are dependent on Catsimatidis, it is a question how much that could be a factor.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe a difference between Sliwa and Adams is that, even assuming he loses the election, Sliwa has a job. Brigid, working for Catsimatidis, as Dana just referenced, who owns WABC Radio, where Curtis-- I'm not sure if he suspended his radio show for the campaign, as media people sometimes do, but I presume he has a job to go back to.

Brigid Bergin: Yes, and, Curtis Sliwa is a well-known figure in New York. He was very involved with the media prior to this election after he lost his bid against Mayor Adams in 2021 and prior to that even-- Likely we'll have opportunities regardless of the outcome of this upcoming election, but I will say that I have spoken with several New York City Republicans who are supporters of Sliwa's, who don't see any reason why he should back away from this race and don't see him open to the idea of it, whatsoever.

The other piece of this which gets a little bit into the weeds of how New York City democracy and New York State democracy functions, Brian, but just because someone suspended their campaign doesn't mean that they will not appear on the ballot in November. This is a very crucial week for some of those decisions to be made. The Board of Elections, which meets every Tuesday, will certify the ballot on Thursday, September 11th, according to state law. Then once the ballot is certified, they begin the process of printing, and as of September 19th, will start mailing ballots out to voters who are permanent absentee ballot voters, permanent mail voters.

These candidates can make whatever decision they want between now and November, but once the ballots are printed and they've gone out in the mail, voters will make their choices based on the names they see on those ballots. For someone perhaps like an Andrew Cuomo, who is looking for a field to be cleared so that they consolidate the vote, even if someone has suspended their campaign and thrown their support behind them, I don't know, say, like State Senator Jessica Ramos did during the primary, that person may still end up getting votes. If we're talking about a very close race, that could be problematic. Jessica Ramos ended up with about 6,000 votes in the New York City primary.

Now, that's not what would have made the difference in putting Cuomo over the top, but if you have someone like a Curtis Sliwa and an Eric Adams, and a Jim Walden, whose names could potentially all still appear on that ballot, that does become more problematic.

Dana Rubinstein: Right. To Brigid's point, success of votes isn't a lot, but the gap between Kathryn Garcia and Eric Adams in the last primary was a little more than 7,000 votes, I believe. These things do matter. That said, there are three ways to get off the ballot, and one of them is to die. One of them is to move out of the state, and one of them is to be nominated for a judgeship-

Brigid Bergin: Correct.

Dana Rubinstein: -which, is the latter, not an option for either Curtis Sliwa or Eric Adams, neither of whom are attorneys. Yes, to Brigid's point, it seems likely that all of these folks will remain on the ballot [crosstalk]

Brigid Bergin: There are implications of that, too. Like, you could say that you moved, but you have to establish residency. You need to change your voter registration. You can't just say, "Well, now I live in Connecticut," for example. Then the board has to make the decision to remove you, and then they have to do it by Thursday, so time is ticking.

Dana Rubinstein: That's right.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners pushing back on previous listeners who recited or who were on, listener writes, "As a Jew, I'd like to suggest that, as I've seen in my own family, most Jews who call Mamdani antisemitic do so because they frame everything through Israel and they perceive Muslims and Arabs as enemies." Another one like this, "How about mentioning the degree to which these 'leaders,' meaning Jeffries and Schumer, and maybe Hochul and Heastie, fear alienating their wealthy donors. Dare we mention AIPAC?"

Here's somebody who quotes William Shakespeare but inserts a different name into the quote, who writes, quoting Shakespeare, "Oh, brave new world that has such people in it. When Curtis Sliwa sounds rational," which I guess is a reference to, according to the listener, The Tempest, Miranda speaking, act five, scene one. Well, maybe this is where we have to leave it. Obviously, a lot more to come this week. A lot more to come between now and Election Day.

Dana, what a summer, right? Isn't the classic pattern that after the primary, and I think it more or less happened in New Jersey, after the gubernatorial primary, things slowed down for the summer, and then after Labor Day, things go into high gear? Well, this New York mayoral race with four marquee names never did slow down.

Dana Rubinstein: No, it didn't. [laughs] Maybe next year we'll have a real summer, but definitely not this year. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: Danny Rubenstein reports on New York politics for the New York Times. Brigid Bergn is WNYC senior political reporter. Oh, Brigid, you're doing an event in the Green Space a week from tonight, right?

Brigid Bergin: That's right, Brian. I was going to sneak it in there. For listeners who are interested in having a conversation or joining a conversation about what it means to cover democracy in 2025, next Monday night, September 15th. We are going to mark International Democracy Day with what I think is really going to be a fascinating conversation. I'm going to be joined by George Chitty of the Guardian, Brandon Tinsley of Capital B, and Elizabeth Estrada of Spotlight PA.

To get into some of the issues that we are each covering locally as we, those of us who call ourselves not just politics reporters but also democracy reporters, contend with this new administration. Brandon has been covering the National Guard in Washington, DC, George has been covering some of the very different immigration issues in Atlanta, Georgia, and particularly a journalist who's been held there, and Elizabeth Estrada is dealing with what are some vital elections in Pennsylvania that may ultimately play a decisive role in presidential elections to come. It's going to be a great conversation. Tickets are available on our website, wnyc.org. Again, next Monday night, come join us. It's going to be a great conversation.

Brian Lehrer: Some listeners may know that I have called you many times, my favorite democracy wonk, but I didn't know there was such a thing as International Democracy Day. Is that what you said next Monday is?

Brigid Bergin: Yes, next Monday is International Democracy Day. This is an event that we're doing in collaboration with Montclair University and the center for Cooperative Media, the Knight Foundation, some really important people who are joining us in supporting what it means to cover democracy here in New York City and across the country, in fact.

Brian Lehrer: Right at our station at the Green Space right here on Barrack Street.

Brigid Bergin: Right here at the Green Space. That's right.

Brian Lehrer: Brigid Bergin, Dana Rubinstein, thanks. We'll be talking.

Brigid Bergin: Thank you, Brian.

Dana Rubinstein: Thanks, Brian.

 

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