Title: The Humanitarian Crisis in Sudan

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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. We're going to talk about Sudan now, where, if you've not been following the story, that country has been experiencing a civil war since April 2023 due to a power struggle between its army and a powerful paramilitary group called the RSF, Rapid Support Forces. Here's how bad this is. The reporting, according to the BBC, is that over 150,000 people have died in the two-plus years since the beginning of this conflict, and about 12 million have fled their homes in what the United Nations has called the world's largest humanitarian crisis. Yet compared to Gaza and lots of other things, it just doesn't get much publicity in this country.

On October 26th, the paramilitary group seized the city of El Fasher in Sudan's Darfur region, from Sudan's military news outlets report the group "went on a rampage of mass killings." An estimated 200,000 residents of that city are unaccounted for. The aid group, the International Rescue Committee, calls Sudan the face of the new world disorder, saying it's a conflict sponsored by a growing cast of regional and global rivals driven by transactional diplomacy and economic greed and sustained by impunity, from the IRC. We're going to talk to one of their leaders here in a second.

Earlier this month, the paramilitary group RSF said it agreed to a humanitarian truce proposed by the United States, the United Arab Emirates, and Egypt. Sudan's army, however, is wary of a truce, saying the paramilitary group doesn't respect ceasefires. Joining us now on both the spiraling humanitarian crisis in Sudan and how global powers are attempting to shape it is Ciarán Donnelly, senior vice president for International Programs at the International Rescue Committee. Ciarán, welcome to WNYC. Thank you for joining us.

Ciarán Donnelly: Thanks for having me on, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: The city of El Fasher, as I mentioned in the intro, has been besieged for 500 days, with very limited information getting out. News organizations have been tracking events via satellite images is the best they can do. What's the best you can tell us about what's happening there?

Ciarán Donnelly: As you said, Sudan is the largest crisis in the world today, largest humanitarian crisis by any measure. The IRC's teams are working across the country responding. We're very focused on El Fasher and neighboring areas as the epicenter of humanitarian need in the country right now. We have teams that are located in an area called Tawila, which is, give or take, about 50 miles from El Fasher. About 500,000 people or more have fled to Tawila over the last year or more. We're focused on serving those people, but we had also been prepared to receive an additional 200,000 or more people expected to flee from El Fasher when it fell to the RSF.

What our teams are telling us on the ground is that we've received around about 10,000 people, or even less have managed to escape. The question in all of our minds in the humanitarian community is what has happened to, where are the remaining people who lived in El Fasher? As you say, everyone has been relying on satellite and other sources to try to understand what's been going on. There are reports of appalling brutality and impunity in terms of people being executed and massacres happening within El Fasher.

Our staff who receive those very small number of people who've been able to flee have told us people are arriving in desperate conditions, recounting horrific stories of attacks and abuse on themselves as they fled, but on of what they've witnessed as well. People are malnourished, they're in need of medical assistance. Many of the women have been sexually assaulted whilst in transit. Really is a nightmare, and as you say, not getting the attention that it deserves.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, I wonder if anybody out there right now has any connection to Sudan or the crisis in Sudan in any way and would like to call in with a story or a question from our guest, Ciarán Donnelly from the International Rescue Committee, which is generally seen as the largest refugee organization in the world, and they do more than that, too. There are so many refugees. I cited the number, 12 million, that the BBC or that the United Nations says has fled their homes just since this current conflict began in 2023. For anybody with any connection to any of it or a question, 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692.

Ciarán, in the intro, I quoted your colleague David Miliband, CEO of the IRC, who wrote in Time magazine recently that the conflict in Sudan represents the "new world disorder sponsored by a growing cast of regional and global rivals." Let's begin with the United Arab Emirates. PBS reports the UAE has provided a crucial outlet for the RSF's business interest, that's the paramilitary group, business interest and gold sales. What has that country's involvement in Sudan been, if that's a good place to start?

Ciarán Donnelly: I think it's a very important place to start, but I think it's also important to put it into broader context where there are probably 12 or 13 countries that are playing an active role in supporting one side or another or have strategic interests in the conflict in Sudan. Some of those are regional players, not just the UAE, but also Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Others are much further away. It's a very complex diplomatic landscape reflected in a very complex situation on the ground. There are two primary groups fighting in Sudan, the Rapid Support Forces and the Sudanese Armed Forces, but there are other smaller groups that also control territory and that are also in the mix. It's a very complex dynamic.

In that broader landscape, the UAE is undoubtedly the most influential regional actor supporting one side to the conflict. They have a range of interests, not just in Sudan, but across the wider region that cover access to food resources, access to economic resources, access to sea lanes, as well as projecting regional diplomatic influence. Any solution to the conflict in Sudan obviously lies with the groups on the ground in Sudan, but getting them to the table and getting any agreements to stick relies on the UAE, but also Saudi Arabia, also Egypt, also other countries in the region that are involved.

Brian Lehrer: Siding with the Sudanese Armed Forces is Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Egypt and Sudan share the Nile River as well as along border. Though Egypt denies this, many humanitarian groups and watchdogs are saying that Egypt is providing Sudan's army with weapons, particularly drones. Tell us more about what we know about Egypt's support and its interests in Sudan, and continue with that broader context that you started with when I asked about the United Arab Emirates.

Ciarán Donnelly: As a humanitarian group, it's not our place to comment on the specifics of arms transfers and military support to different actors, but what is clear is Egypt has had a long-standing, decades-old interest in what happens in Sudan. Obviously, two very large countries, immediate neighbors and connected by the River Nile, which is critical to the economy of both countries and to livelihoods, but also sharing a wider set of interests. Egypt is much like the UAE, concerned about access to markets, it's concerned about access to seaports, it's concerned about stability in a very large neighboring country.

They play a critical role, have significant influence in being able to bring about any kind of a ceasefire on the ground. The broader point relating to arms transfers is that the conflict in Sudan continues to be fueled by the transfer of weapons from different neighboring actors, regional actors, to their proxies on the ground. Any solution also has to involve a limitation or an end to those arms transfers which embolden and empower groups on the ground.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a good guy and a bad guy in this story? I know you don't like to take political sides at the IRC, and maybe you can't answer that question from your seat, but is there a good guy or a bad guy in any respect, or is there one that's more responsible than the other for this horrific number of civilians killed or displaced?

Ciarán Donnelly: In any conflict that we respond to around the world, we're focused on taking the sides of one group only, and that's civilians who are caught in the middle. It's not for us to apportion blame or responsibility. Today, I would say, looking at the numbers of people displaced, the numbers of people living in food insecurity, the numbers of people suffering from diseases and deprivation across Sudan, there are no one who I would call a good guy on the horizon.

What I would say is there's potential for people to become the good guys through sincere, sustained investment in not just a ceasefire, but a political process that brings about a resolution to the conflict and restores a measure of lasting stability to Sudan, which will enable those civilians that we're so focused on to recover and gain control over their lives.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call from Elias in Brooklyn, who says he's a Sudanese American. Elias, thank you so much for calling in. You're on WNYC.

Elias: Thank you so much, Mr. Brian. Long-time listener, first-time calling, and I really appreciate the role you guys are doing in NPR. I'm Sudanese American. I'm here in Brooklyn for the last 36 years, and all my family, rest of the family is in Sudan. In Sudan, we consider this war is like from the foreign countries interfering in Sudan first because people, definitely, they believe that to divide Sudan into small cantons or to steal, like the United Arab Emirates or the other are doing, to steal Sudan wealth and to change demographic in Sudan. I would like to hear from your guest how far this is right or is it correct, the other interferences' main role in the continuing or belonging the war. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Ciarán, do you get the question?

Ciarán Donnelly: I did, yes. About the role of foreign players, foreign actors in sustaining the conflict in Sudan. I think that's absolutely right. As I mentioned already, there's at least 12 or 13 countries that have an active stake in the ongoing conflict and are supporting in different ways, different elements to it. Of course, we also have to acknowledge that there's a significant responsibility with actors on the ground who are issuing orders and carrying out acts which contribute to and directly lead to the food insecurity, the famine-like conditions, the displacement, the horrific violations that we're seeing on the ground.

One thing I might add, Brian, is the role of the United States in all of this, which is a member of what's called the Quad, which is a group of four countries, the US, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt, which are the ones who've brokered the truce agreement that's on the table hasn't been fully ratified as yet. The US has the potential to play a significant positive influencing role, not just over the actors on the ground, but over those regional players in bringing them to the table and using leverage with them to hold their proxies on the ground to account and to the terms of any ceasefire deal that's agreed.

Brian Lehrer: Elias, I'll ask you one follow-up question if you're still there to that point. As a Sudanese American, what would you like the United States government role to be here, if any?

Elias: United States have a big role and a big player in the Middle East and in all over the world. Like a couple of years ago, 10, 15, they built the biggest embassy, I believe, in East Africa. Sudan is so important country to the base of the region and also in the, maybe, food of the world because we got a lot of resources over there in Sudan, like the Nile, the underground water, the minerals, the petrol, everything. Sudan is a big, first of all, is a fertile land, maybe used to be one third of United States land, 1 million and plus kilometers square.

America has to play a big role stopping, like the gentleman, the guest is saying, the players, because I believe people are saying the United States' weapons is used from the Rapid Forces coming from United Arab Emirates. United States could play a big role to stop Saudi Arabia and Egypt to not support the army. The war is fueling with the friends of United States, and United States is not doing nothing positive.

Brian Lehrer: Elias, thank you very much. That's a pretty damning point of view about the United States. Either it's not doing nothing, or it's complicit because it's on one side of the war, siding with the Sudanese army and is supplying weapons. The IRC does sometimes call on the United States government to do one thing or another. Are you calling on the United States government to do anything here, and do you see it as complicit in this slaughter?

Ciarán Donnelly: There are four things that we've been calling on in terms of all of the parties with influence over this conflict, including the US government, and they have a really important role to play. The first and most urgent is to provide safe passage for civilians trapped in El Fasher, to be able to escape and seek aid, and to bring about an end to the ongoing acts of violence against them. The second, to scale up the humanitarian support and response on the ground, ensuring that all parties to the conflict make sufficient space, safe space access for agencies to be able to reach people in need.

Third is diplomatic engagement, helping to broker not just a suspension of violence, but ensuring that that is not used by any group to reposition to regroup and re-engage in conflict, but that it really does lead us into a political process. Then, fourthly, is the significant investment required to support humanitarian efforts. This is talking about dollars in terms of aid budgets here to support the aid effort and reconstruction in Sudan. For the US Government, this isn't just a moral question, which it very clearly is. It's also a strategic question.

Secretary of State Rubio has clearly set out the aspiration for American foreign policy to make America stronger, safer, and more prosperous. Stability in East Africa, stability in Sudan, is surely in the critical foreign policy interest of the US.

Brian Lehrer: Let's get one more caller in here. Diane in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Diane, you still there?

Diana: Yes. Diana, actually. I am still here shopping. Just a quick question. I'd like to know why Sudan is not being covered as much as I feel it should be.

Brian Lehrer: Diane, thank you very much. I don't think we get a lot of calls from people in the middle of shopping, so that was cool. Diana, thank you very much. I don't know if there's an implication to her question, Ciarán, about why Sudan, this massacre, what Human Rights Watch says may be a genocide, isn't getting more coverage in the United States. I will say we're getting a number of text messages along these lines. Why has this conflict gotten so much attention, so much less attention than Gaza, making that particular comparison? Another one. "Where are all of the student protesters now?"

Another one is "Iran entrenching and reorganizing its proxy terror groups like Hamas and Sudan. Answer, yes," at least says that listener. You get the comparison here that some people primarily concerned with antisemitism have in their minds, which might be that what's happening in Gaza may be really bad and not to let the Netanyahu government off the hook for its actions, but they ask why is the whole world organizing against that and not other humanitarian horrors, which in this case, by the numbers, is actually many times worse?

Ciarán Donnelly: I think these are really important questions, and I think it's also important to note that the UN estimates that there are at least 300 million people around the world in need of humanitarian assistance. When you take a step back from the horrors of El Fasher or the horrors of Gaza, where our teams are also responding, there's a broader landscape of humanitarian suffering. The, if I can call it the political economy of attention, whether that's media attention, public attention, political or diplomatic attention, isn't evenly distributed across those crises for a whole range of reasons.

Of the countries that we're working in, we always hesitate and try not to draw any kind of comparison between one crisis or another. Gaza is the most intense humanitarian crisis in terms of the percentage of people affected, in terms of the depths of suffering, but equally, Sudan, as we said, is the largest crisis in terms of the numbers of people affected. There are 400,000 people in Darfur living in famine-like conditions today. We can't draw equivalencies across these. For aid organizations like ourselves, to the extent we can, it's about allocating as much resourcing we can on the basis of where the needs are greatest and encouraging those who have influence over humanitarian responses.

Indeed, Brian, if I can say, those who have influence over where coverage is directed to make sure that certain crises are not forgotten simply because they don't engage people or engage policymakers, indeed, in the same way as others.

Brian Lehrer: Ciarán Donnelly, senior vice president for International Programs at the International Rescue Committee, thank you very much for joining us today.

Ciarán Donnelly: Thank you.

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