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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Last month, we invited New Jersey Congressman Frank Pallone on the show as one of our first national politics guests of the new year, even before the Trump inauguration. That's because in the new Republican Congress, he is now the ranking Democrat on the Energy and Commerce Committee, which has jurisdiction over some of the biggest areas of policy that affect all Americans, and that could change with the new government energy policy, climate, and other environmental policy, also health policy, including Medicare, Medicaid, the Affordable Care Act, and more. And we told Congressman Pallone we would follow up with him when the real action in his committee starts.

Well, he's back with us now because the House budget blueprint that Republicans passed this week, as we've been talking about, calls for his committee to find $880 billion in cuts over the next 10 years to help pay for an extension of President Trump's tax cuts. The big question that that number has prompted is, can they cut that much without reducing people's Medicare, or mostly Medicaid health insurance coverage? Just about every U.S. senior is on Medicare, another 72 million Americans who have low incomes or are disabled are on Medicaid, and those programs make up the biggest share of the funding that the Energy and Commerce Committee oversees. We'll talk about that, plus some of what might happen with energy and the climate if this spending cuts mandate stands. Congressman Pallone, nice of you to come on with us again. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congressman Pallone: Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: And I'll just go right there, can your committee find $880 billion in spending cuts without touching Medicare or Medicaid benefits?

Congressman Pallone: Absolutely not. Republicans who are saying that are simply lying, but I did want to say two things. First of all, remember this tax cut that they want to use this Medicaid money for is to pay for tax cuts for billionaires and large corporate interests, not for the average American. Secondly, that $880 billion in cuts to our committee is the floor. In other words, they said at least $880 billion, and in the budget document, it says that the committees in general have to cut an additional $500 billion. So we expect that that number for us in our committee will be over a trillion dollars, and there's absolutely no way to do that without significantly cutting Medicaid.

Now, I'm glad you mentioned, Brian, that we also have jurisdiction over Medicare, because actually, when we had the committee hearing earlier this week, there were some members on the Republican side that said, "Well, we can also deal with Medicare." You know, we expect that most of this is going to be from Medicaid, but both of them are just as important as you know.

Brian Lehrer: I want to play a clip of President Trump on that question when he was asked about it by a reporter on Wednesday. Listen to this, and I'll get your reaction on the other side. This begins with the reporter's question.

Reporter: The spending bill that passed last night aims to cut $2 trillion.

President Trump: Right.

Reporter: Can you guarantee that Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security will not be touched?

President Trump: Yes. I mean, I have said it so many times, you shouldn't be asking me that question. Okay? This will not be read-my-lips. It won't be read-my-lips anymore. We're not going to touch it. Now, we are going to look for fraud, I'm sure you're okay with that. Like, people that shouldn't be on--

Brian Lehrer: Congressman, he's putting it right out there. Seems like he's staking his reputation on it, so how reassuring do you find that to be coming from the president in that way?

Congressman Pallone: Well, he's simply lying to the American people. I mean, you know he lies a lot, so that's no surprise. But the bottom line is, the very time he was saying that and lying, our committee had a hearing, and it was actually laid out in our committee that they were going to cut Medicaid by over $800 billion. So he could say whatever he wants, but the reality is that in my committee which has to deal with this, they publicly laid out plans for how they were going to cut Medicaid to the tune of that $880 billion, which I think will be even more, so it's an absolute lie.

Brian Lehrer: There are a number of ways to reduce Medicaid funding without technically touching benefits that are being discussed. I'll read for you and our listeners this paragraph from the news site LoHud, which covers the Lower Hudson Valley. It says, "Republicans have outlined a few options for cutting Medicaid. One is requiring able-bodied recipients without children to work, which trims costs if people lose coverage as a result. Deeper cuts could be made by setting per capita limits on Medicaid spending and giving the money to states as block grants. Lawmakers also could lower the federal share of Medicaid which is jointly funded with the states." That's from LoHud.

Some of those definitely sound like potential cuts to me, but let's take each one. Are your Republican colleagues on the Energy and Commerce Committee thinking of lowering the federal share of Medicaid funding, shifting more of that onto the states, as the article mentions? And if so, how do you think that would affect people in your state of New Jersey, for example?

Congressman Pallone: Well, these are the gimmicks, right? Understand, Brian, that they have to, as part of this instruction, actually indicate how they are going to make the cuts. They can't just say, "We're going to get rid of something." They have to say, "This is what we're going to do." So, let's use two examples, which is that for basic Medicaid in New Jersey, the federal government pays for 50%. So they could say in the bill, "We'll only pay for 25%," and that's certainly one of the things that they're considering.

If they lowered the amount of money that the federal government gives to the states for their Medicaid population, and you did that to pay for the 880, we estimate that would be to New Jersey, prorated, between $9 billion and $10 billion. The budget that the governor unveiled on Tuesday, the same day that all this occurred, was $58 billion, so you're now talking about-- what is that-- a little less than 20% of the state budget. What is the state then going to do? They're going to simply say to nursing homes, "We're not paying you as much." We're going to say to people who are on Medicaid and use it as their health insurance, "You have to be of a much lower income in order to be eligible for Medicaid than people are now."

Brian Lehrer: So if they go that route of cutting the federal share, they can say, "We're not cutting your benefits. It's all those bad states that are cutting your benefits." But they're shifting the burden onto the state capitalists and kind of requiring you to either raise maybe another $8 billion a year in taxes or cut people down.

Congressman Pallone: Right, and the states don't have the ability to make up for 15%, 20% of their budget, and so they're simply going to reduce the rolls. They're going to say to nursing home operators, "We're only going to give you half of what you used to have," so then you're faced with either closure and kicking everybody out, or eliminating health and safety measures. For example, at the hearing, one of the Republicans said, "Well, we should get rid of the nurse staffing ratio," so there wouldn't be as many nurses or health aides, you wouldn't fix the fire safety equipment. I mean, it's all this kind of stuff.

And people with disabilities-- you know, 60% of people in nursing homes are paid for by Medicaid. It's almost 100% of programs for the disabled, right? So people who are disabled, they would eliminate-- They'll say, "Okay, we're not going to give you home care, or we're only going to give you half the home care." Or, "We're not going to pay for group homes anymore," and so there aren't any group homes and you've got to go back and become institutionalized because you can't stay in a group home. You know, the effect on the disabilities community is probably the worst of all. They haven't even talked about it, but that's-- almost 100% of programs for people with disabilities are paid for by Medicaid.

Brian Lehrer: If you're just joining us, our guest is New Jersey Congressman Frank Pallone, who's the ranking Democrat now on the Energy and Commerce Committee, which has been tasked with finding $880 billion at least in savings so they can extend the Trump tax cuts. We're talking about what that might mean for people on Medicaid. The one potential change that's getting the most media coverage, Congressman, requiring able-bodied childless adults to work if they're getting health insurance through Medicaid. I guess that could save money because some of those people who find jobs would then be covered by their employers, but that's really a social contract question.

Republicans and many Americans would say that's only fair. If you're able-bodied, aren't raising kids and getting your health insurance from other taxpayers, you at least have the responsibility to be giving something back, not sitting around if you have the option. That's how the argument goes. What's your position on that?

Congressman Pallone: Well, first of all, I'm going to keep saying, and I hope you don't get mad at me, that remember, this is a tax cut for billionaires and large corporate interests, not a tax cut for the average American that they're trying to pay for [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: But on that, let's take a step back and detour into that for a second. You're making that claim that this is just a scheme to enrich the Republican Party's billionaires and other wealthy supporters by taking from everyone else. But they argue that cutting taxes leads to jobs and economic growth that has a net positive effect on most people. And the tax cuts in the first Trump term that would be extended did go to most Americans, even though the total bulk of the dollars went to people in higher tax brackets because of the percentages, but that it's not just the rich who get the tax cuts, and the point is economic growth, not stuffing the pockets of people who are already billionaires. What would you say to that?

Congressman Pallone: I would say that the trickle-down economic theory that you just articulated, I'm not saying you agree with it, does not work. If anything, the last month since Trump was inaugurated, in my opinion, is leading to-- his policies are leading to an economic downturn. I don't want to go into it all, but inflation is up for groceries, retail sales are down. The tariffs that he's proposing are making everybody jittery: not only people not willing to buy things, but companies not willing to invest. I mean, these Trump policies do not lead to growth. They simply not. In fact, I'm just concerned right now that the growth in our economy is starting to disappear. But I just want to stress, as you said, that the bulk of these tax cuts go to the very wealthy, and also to the large corporate interests.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Coming back to the work requirement for people on Medicaid who are childless and able-bodied. Fair social contract?

Congressman Pallone: Well, first of all, again, it's a lie. In other words, most people on Medicaid, including those who are single adults, work, right? The people that are on Medicaid who don't work are because they can't: they're disabled or they don't have the ability. Now, this was tried under the first Trump administration, and probably the best example is Georgia where they instituted all these requirements, that every month, you had to show how many jobs you were seeking and all this. What we found is that it just significantly reduced the number of people on Medicaid in the state. Not because they were trying to work, or not because they did or did not work, but only because there was so much paperwork you had to file every month, and people just didn't file it because they didn't know how. It was too onerous, and so the people that were taken off the rolls were because they didn't file the paperwork. So this is just another excuse.

But I will tell you, even if you did what they did in Georgia and all these people got kicked off of Medicaid because they didn't file the papers, you're talking about significantly less than $100 billion out of this 880 or trillion dollars. If you want to kick more people off, then that's what they do. A lot of people are going to get kicked off, not because of work requirements, just because of the cuts, as we've already discussed. This is another lie, essentially. It doesn't happen.

Brian Lehrer: Your committee also has jurisdiction over energy, climate, and other environmental policies. There's an article on the Politico site, E&E News, Energy and Environment News, called Low-hanging fruit: GOP puts target on green energy after budget win. It says repealing EPA's rule regulating vehicle tailpipe emissions could garner more than $100 billion in savings for Energy and Commerce, and it says there could be big implications for businesses and individuals counting on certain tax credits, like for electric vehicles. How serious do you think the Republican majority on your committee is about dismantling specifically green energy incentives or tailpipe emission rules?

Congressman Pallone: I do believe that they want to tear down all the environmental protections, but I want to explain that that's not the type of thing that'll provide major or even significant savings. In other words, when I say to you that if we're talking $1 trillion dollars or $880 billion in cuts, you're not getting any significant amount of that from the types of things you're talking about. But they may try to do those things as part of this budget as well, don't kid yourself.

Brian Lehrer: The budget blueprint also calls for more investment in drilling for fossil fuels. Any idea how much they're looking to cost American taxpayers for that, as if the fossil fuel companies can't be profitable on their own?

Congressman Pallone: Well, that may be as well, but-- you know, one of the things I should say, our committee is the one that has been instructed to make the biggest cuts. Some of the other committees actually under this budget are giving significant increases in funding and are directed to increase funding. For example, the defense budget, I guess that goes to armed services, their instruction is to significantly increase spending. In my case, the instruction for Energy and Commerce, as I said, which is going to be almost all healthcare, is to cut, so we've been talking about that. You're not going to get those kinds of cuts from the energy programs. You just wouldn't. Some people have said, "Well, why don't you just take money from Spectrum," which is what's used for broadcast, whatever, right? I mean, probably the most you could get there would be $10 billion, and we're talking a trillion.

Brian Lehrer: So what power do you have to effectively oppose any of the things that you're objecting to? Democrats don't have the majority in Congress, obviously, and obviously not the presidency either. We get calls and texts from listeners every day now saying that Democratic elected officials should be ramping up the passion and activism more than you are. What can you tell the frustrated Democrats among your constituents that you can do beyond just say stuff and analyze it like you're doing here?

Congressman Pallone: Well, I do want to say that my first response was going to be for me to go on the Brian Lehrer Show because the fact of the matter is that public opinion matters. And so to the extent that I or any constituent or American can influence public opinion by talking to their friends, using social media, writing letters to the editor, this is what's going to change things. I mean, I'll give you a perfect example. A couple of weeks ago, the Trump administration cut 20% of the staff at the 9/11 Health Program, which is one of the things that I helped set up for the survivors and first responders of 9/11. And then there were not only Democrats, but a significant number of Republicans in the New York Metropolitan Area who wrote a letter and said, "This is outrageous. You're going to not give healthcare to the first responders in the World Trade Center?" And they reversed it.

They rehired the people back and eliminated the cuts, so public opinion matters. I mean, these guys, Trump is-- you know, he loves to have people flatter him and tell him how great he is, so if you persuade him that the public is getting mad at him, he'll be the first one to retract these things.

Brian Lehrer: One more thing then before you go, on action to defend democracy, as some people see it. The current stopgap federal budget expires on March 14th, and I know Democrats might use that moment to turn up the heat on some of the things you're objecting to and that Democrats see as unconstitutional, even existential attacks on democracy-- turn up the heat by refusing to vote for the next budget extension to force a more high-profile debate. Here is House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, your leader, on this show on February 4th after he floated that idea.

House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries: Democrats are willing to find the bipartisan common ground necessary to keep the government open, but the constitutional power of the purse of the United States Congress must be respected. We can reach a funding agreement, that funding agreement could be signed into law by the President, and then they turn around and ignore it the very next day, because that is what is happening right now. Lawfully appropriated funds authorized by Congress which should be spent on behalf of the American people have been frozen, and so I communicated to House Republican leaders that as we discuss the upcoming funding agreement, we have to make sure that Congress' power of the purse is respected and the law is complied with by this administration.

Brian Lehrer: Leader Jeffries here, February 4th. For you, Congressman Pallone, do you have any bottom line as of today for what might cause you to take this to the brink of a government shutdown on March 14th?

Congressman Pallone: Well, Brian, as you said before, we're not in control of anything, right? House, Senate, President, Supreme Court, you name it. They don't come and ask us for votes. I mean, when we did the budget reconciliation of the budget bill on Tuesday, they scrambled around and found the votes to pass it. They didn't ask me or anybody on our side to vote for this thing. I mean, as Hakeem said, we're more than willing to meet with them and come up with a budget that's bipartisan and helps the American people, but that's not what they're doing. They want to make all these cuts, put all these cuts, layoffs, freezes in motion and pass it themselves. They don't ask us to cooperate with them in any way, so I don't [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Right, but if you get a feel from the Freedom Caucus who aren't going to vote for a lot of spending no matter what-- I know they all held together in the framework vote this week, but if you just peel off a few who for other reasons don't want to vote for the budget, and all the Democrats don't, you could build a strange bedfellows coalition there and draw attention to the issues. Or do you think that's unrealistic?

Congressman Pallone: Well, I think the problem is they don't reach out to us and say, "What do you want to do, and how do you want to work with us to come up with a budget that's actually beneficial?" They just want to put all these cuts on the table and then throw it out there and try to get their own votes to pass it. This notion of cooperating with us and asking us for our opinion, it just doesn't exist, and I think you saw that very vividly in the budget vote last last Tuesday. You see it in my committee where they just lay out the plans for the Medicaid cuts, and you guys be damned. That's not-- What you're envisioning, I'm not trying to take away from you, it's just not happening, in my opinion.

Brian Lehrer: New Jersey Congressman Frank Pallone, ranking Democrat on the Energy and Commerce Committee, which the House Republican budget framework says has to find $880 billion in spending cuts to pay for extending the Trump tax cuts. Congressman, thank you very much.

Congressman Pallone: Thank you, Brian. Appreciate it.

Brian Lehrer: That interview with Congressman Pallone recorded yesterday to accommodate his schedule. We're back live now, and we'll follow up on the last thing we talked about in that interview, which reflects what many of you have been asking: What can you do if you're opposed to Trump and Musk's action so far, and you think Democratic Party politicians are being too milquetoast? We'll talk about today's nationwide economic blackout protest and more after the break with John Nichols, co-author with Bernie Sanders of It's OK to Be Angry About Capitalism, and with you on the phones and in your text messages. You can start calling and texting now with how or why you're participating in today's boycott, and what else you're doing. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text, and stay with us.

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